Please help me reconcile a couple things. Thank you in advance for your patience.

[nuclearfuels]

I’m having trouble reconciling the following philosophies / teachings:

1.       The Church is politically neutral[1] and encourages people to vote however they feel. I agree. At the same time, America is a "choice land, "the land of promise," etc. and the US[2] and the Constitution are inspired[3], as was Columbus[4], but nationalism (; loyalty and devotion to a nation especially as expressed in a glorifying of one nation above all others and a stressing of the promotion of its culture and interests; an ideology that emphasizes loyalty, devotion, or allegiance to a nation or nation-state and holds that such obligations outweigh other individual or group interests) is bad[5]/not preferred/discouraged/unholy?

 

2.       Everywhere the GA’s travel, they see wonderful people and cultures they love[6]. That’s great and all. I’m just not sure travelling on a private plane or in first class or in coach on someone else’s dime for over 40 years - to events where your attendance is celebrated, revered, etc. is the average person’s experience; some of us and our family members have lost jobs, been unable to compete with cheap labor, not been able to receive social services due to US demographics. To state, understand these things and prepare and responding accordingly  is…bad/misguided/unholy?

 

Note to mods: Please help me reconcile a couple things. Thank you in advance for your patience.

 

---

[1] https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/political-neutrality and https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/political-neutrality?lang=eng

[2] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/10/a-witness-and-a-warning?lang=eng#p17

[3] Defending Our Divinely Inspired Constitution (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[4] Columbus: Fulfillment of Book of Mormon Prophecy | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu) and Chapter 4: 1 Nephi 12–15 (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[5] The Trek Continues! (churchofjesuschrist.org) and Choices for Eternity (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[6] Choices for Eternity (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[rpn]

• I'm sorry, but I don't get your dichotomy.    Many other countries adopted parts of or even much of our constitution --- the gospel principles behind good government  --- government by the people, taking/defending positions without demeaning those who think/want or treating them as less than, honesty, working for the consensus, equality of opportunity, self-reliance and care for the poor, living within one's means, standing firm on principles and otherwise leave room for lots of approaches and choices --- aren't inconsistent with government of and by the people.

Sure GA visits are just a snapshot.  But we now have a world wide organization with area authorities so GA's get a much bigger picture than your photo op view suggests.

[teddyaware]

32 minutes ago, rpn said:

• I'm sorry, but I don't get your dichotomy.    Many other countries adopted parts of or even much of our constitution --- the gospel principles behind good government  --- government by the people, taking/defending positions without demeaning those who think/want or treating them as less than, honesty, working for the consensus, equality of opportunity, self-reliance and care for the poor, living within one's means, standing firm on principles and otherwise leave room for lots of approaches and choices --- aren't inconsistent with government of and by the people.

Sure GA visits are just a snapshot.  But we now have a world wide organization with area authorities so GA's get a much bigger picture than your photo op view suggests.

A delicious irony to be found among the ranks of those members of the church who decry the evils of Christian Nationalism is that the very God whom they worship turns out to be an unapologetic, full-bore Christian Nationalist! I guess Christian Nationalism is evil only when imperfect human beings embrace the ideology, but as long as it’s God who upholds this pernicious worldview it’s all perfectly acceptable? But perhaps I’m wrong? Maybe there are church members today who would condemn the following passages from the Book of Mormon as prime examples of the deadly political heresy of Christian Nationalism? See for yourself…

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles (us!), that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.(Ether 2)

Yep, no doubt about it. God decrees that if the people who inhabit the latter-day American promised land refuse to serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, they will ultimately be swept out of the land and utterly destroyed, just as were the Jaredites and Nephites before them. Oh my Lordy, can you imagine that?  God upholds the pernicious principles of Christian Nationalism! Maybe one day when the progressive members of the church gain the upper hand they’ll get around to expunging these awful Christian Nationalist verses from the Book of Mormon (plus the many other verses of similar ilk) and throw them in the dustbin of history where they think they belong?

 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

who decry the evils of Christian Nationalism is that the very God whom they worship turns out to be an unapologetic, full-bore Christian Nationalist!

My guess is you are using a very different definition of Christian Nationalism than most of those decrying it, yours being more of a generic christian (simply faith) nationalism (perhaps simply patriotism?) than a particular ideology labeled Christian Nationalism.

This seems a good discussion on defining Christian Nationalism and nationalism in general.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/2021/02/what-is-christian-nationalism/

Quote

What is the problem with nationalism?

Humanity is not easily divisible into mutually distinct cultural units. Cultures overlap and their borders are fuzzy. Since cultural units are fuzzy, they make a poor fit as the foundation for political order. Cultural identities are fluid and hard to draw boundaries around, but political boundaries are hard and semipermanent. Attempting to found political legitimacy on cultural likeness means political order will constantly be in danger of being felt as illegitimate by some group or other. Cultural pluralism is essentially inevitable in every nation.

Is that really a problem, or just an abstract worry?

It is a serious problem. When nationalists go about constructing their nation, they have to define who is, and who is not, part of the nation. But there are always dissidents and minorities who do not or cannot conform to the nationalists’ preferred cultural template. In the absence of moral authority, nationalists can only establish themselves by force. Scholars are almost unanimous that nationalist governments tend to become authoritarian and oppressive in practice. For example, in past generations, to the extent that the United States had a quasi-established official religion of Protestantism, it did not respect true religious freedom. Worse, the United States and many individual states used Christianity as a prop to support slavery and segregation.

 

Edited September 13, 2024 by Calm

[rpn]

There's a pretty big difference between God identifying the righteous and mortals trying to do that.    There are only a couple of examples of God destroying to effect major righteousness.  And mortals just aren't able to fairly/rightly/see well enough to determine that on their own ---- even when fully righteous try to hear Him and reflect His desires (which most of us gets mixed up with a myriad of other more mortal views/desires)

[webbles]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

1.       The Church is politically neutral[1] and encourages people to vote however they feel. I agree. At the same time, America is a "choice land, "the land of promise," etc. and the US[2] and the Constitution are inspired[3], as was Columbus[4], but nationalism (; loyalty and devotion to a nation especially as expressed in a glorifying of one nation above all others and a stressing of the promotion of its culture and interests; an ideology that emphasizes loyalty, devotion, or allegiance to a nation or nation-state and holds that such obligations outweigh other individual or group interests) is bad[5]/not preferred/discouraged/unholy?

"America" is not the "United States of America".  The entire American continent is the "choice land" and "the land of promise".  For example, the Sao Paulo Temple dedicatory prayer says:

Quote

We thank Thee that Thou didst bring Father Lehi and his family to this land of promise and Thou didst establish Thy people, the Nephites and the Lamanites and their Book of Mormon.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

A delicious irony to be found among the ranks of those members of the church who decry the evils of Christian Nationalism is that the very God whom they worship turns out to be an unapologetic, full-bore Christian Nationalist! I guess Christian Nationalism is evil only when imperfect human beings embrace the ideology, but as long as it’s God who upholds this pernicious worldview it’s all perfectly acceptable? But perhaps I’m wrong? Maybe there are church members today who would condemn the following passages from the Book of Mormon as prime examples of the deadly political heresy of Christian Nationalism? See for yourself…

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles (us!), that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.(Ether 2)

Yep, no doubt about it. God decrees that if the people who inhabit the latter-day American promised land refuse to serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, they will ultimately be swept out of the land and utterly destroyed, just as were the Jaredites and Nephites before them. Oh my Lordy, can you imagine that?  God upholds the pernicious principles of Christian Nationalism! Maybe one day when the progressive members of the church gain the upper hand they’ll get around to expunging these awful Christian Nationalist verses from the Book of Mormon (plus the many other verses of similar ilk) and throw them in the dustbin of history where they think they belong?

 

Christian Nationalism is about othering, marginalizing and persecuting non-Christians.

You are a fool if you support Christian Nationalism. If they succeed in the United States (please no) after they are done dealing with their non-Christian enemies it is only a question of whether they target Catholics or Mormons next.

Support the leopards eating faces faction and then act surprised when they eat your faces. WAIT! STOP! I only wanted you to eat the faces of the globohomonazis! NOT ME! I AM ON YOUR SIDE! I AM ONE OF THE GOOD ONES!

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

A delicious irony to be found among the ranks of those members of the church who decry the evils of Christian Nationalism is that the very God whom they worship turns out to be an unapologetic, full-bore Christian Nationalist! I guess Christian Nationalism is evil only when imperfect human beings embrace the ideology, but as long as it’s God who upholds this pernicious worldview it’s all perfectly acceptable? But perhaps I’m wrong? Maybe there are church members today who would condemn the following passages from the Book of Mormon as prime examples of the deadly political heresy of Christian Nationalism? See for yourself…

6 And it came to pass that they did travel in the wilderness, and did build barges, in which they did cross many waters, being directed continually by the hand of the Lord.

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people.

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles (us!), that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.(Ether 2)

Yep, no doubt about it. God decrees that if the people who inhabit the latter-day American promised land refuse to serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, they will ultimately be swept out of the land and utterly destroyed, just as were the Jaredites and Nephites before them. Oh my Lordy, can you imagine that?  God upholds the pernicious principles of Christian Nationalism! Maybe one day when the progressive members of the church gain the upper hand they’ll get around to expunging these awful Christian Nationalist verses from the Book of Mormon (plus the many other verses of similar ilk) and throw them in the dustbin of history where they think they belong?

 

Which denomination of Christianity would you have be in charge of the United States?

Protestantism is dominant, so I suppose if we went full-bore Christian Nationalist they would be in charge.

How has the LDS church fared over its history with protestants?

If you'd like 100% Christian Nationalism, head on over to the Vatican City. The Pope, the Vicar of Christ, has unlimited political power there.

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

For example, in past generations, to the extent that the United States had a quasi-established official religion of Protestantism, it did not respect true religious freedom.

Note: this is not Calm, this is Calm quoting Christianity Today.

True! Which is why the Mormons had to illegally immigrate to Mexico, set up a quasi-theocracy, then take up arms against the country they illegally invaded in the Mexican-American War. The Mormons did what current immigration focused people are afraid current immigrants will do.

Did ya'll eat the pets of the people who were already living in Utah?

(I'm feeling feisty tonight! You know I love you -- I blame Friday the 13th and Laphroiag 10 cask strength)

[MiserereNobis]

26 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

If you'd like 100% Christian Nationalism, head on over to the Vatican City. The Pope, the Vicar of Christ, has unlimited political power there.

Breaking News from The Onion:

https://theonion.com/vatican-city-police-unveil-new-unit-of-sin-sniffing-dogs/

[Dario_M]

Edit, never mind. Unfortunatly the topic is not clear to me. 

Edited September 14, 2024 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Which denomination of Christianity would you have be in charge of the United States?

Protestantism is dominant, so I suppose if we went full-bore Christian Nationalist they would be in charge.

How has the LDS church fared over its history with protestants?

I am sure it will be fine. We have always had good relationships with Protestant Christian faiths. If they get power to enforce religious morals and doctrine I am sure they will let LDS live in peace. I will let Brigham Young explain:

“Treason! Treason! Treason! they cried, calling us murderers, thieves, liars, adulterers, and the worst people on the earth. And this was done by the priests, those pious dispensers of the Christian religion whose charity was supposed to be extended to all men, Christian and heathen; they were joined by drunkards, gamblers, thieves, liars, in crying against the Latter-day Saints.”

Oh…….ummmmm……..oops.

[Peacefully]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am sure it will be fine. We have always had good relationships with Protestant Christian faiths. If they get power to enforce religious morals and doctrine I am sure they will let LDS live in peace. I will let Brigham Young explain:

“Treason! Treason! Treason! they cried, calling us murderers, thieves, liars, adulterers, and the worst people on the earth. And this was done by the priests, those pious dispensers of the Christian religion whose charity was supposed to be extended to all men, Christian and heathen; they were joined by drunkards, gamblers, thieves, liars, in crying against the Latter-day Saints.”

Oh…….ummmmm……..oops.

How soon we forget:( 

[Calm]

19 hours ago, teddyaware said:

God decrees that if the people who inhabit the latter-day American promised land refuse to serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, they will ultimately be swept out of the land and utterly destroyed, just as were the Jaredites and Nephites before them.

We should be eagerly welcoming immigrants then since they have a much higher percentage of Christians in their ranks.  If we want to keep the US Christian, we should open up to immigration from Central and South America.

Edited September 14, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

We should be eagerly welcoming immigrants then since they have a much higher percentage of Christians in their ranks.  If we want to keep the US Christian, we should open up to immigration from Central and South America.

One would almost think that Christian Nationalism is really more about creating a white ethnostate.

One would be correct to think that.

[CV75]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:33 AM, nuclearfuels said:

I’m having trouble reconciling the following philosophies / teachings:

1.       The Church is politically neutral[1] and encourages people to vote however they feel. I agree. At the same time, America is a "choice land, "the land of promise," etc. and the US[2] and the Constitution are inspired[3], as was Columbus[4], but nationalism (; loyalty and devotion to a nation especially as expressed in a glorifying of one nation above all others and a stressing of the promotion of its culture and interests; an ideology that emphasizes loyalty, devotion, or allegiance to a nation or nation-state and holds that such obligations outweigh other individual or group interests) is bad[5]/not preferred/discouraged/unholy?

 

2.       Everywhere the GA’s travel, they see wonderful people and cultures they love[6]. That’s great and all. I’m just not sure travelling on a private plane or in first class or in coach on someone else’s dime for over 40 years - to events where your attendance is celebrated, revered, etc. is the average person’s experience; some of us and our family members have lost jobs, been unable to compete with cheap labor, not been able to receive social services due to US demographics. To state, understand these things and prepare and responding accordingly  is…bad/misguided/unholy?

 

Note to mods: Please help me reconcile a couple things. Thank you in advance for your patience.

 

---

[1] https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/political-neutrality and https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/political-neutrality?lang=eng

[2] https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1979/10/a-witness-and-a-warning?lang=eng#p17

[3] Defending Our Divinely Inspired Constitution (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[4] Columbus: Fulfillment of Book of Mormon Prophecy | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu) and Chapter 4: 1 Nephi 12–15 (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[5] The Trek Continues! (churchofjesuschrist.org) and Choices for Eternity (churchofjesuschrist.org)

[6] Choices for Eternity (churchofjesuschrist.org)

My 2 cents:

1. Nationalism is nation-centered, not Christ-centered, so it detracts from recognizing the purpose and blessing of the land of the restoration, which is to glorify God. The same with politics: voting is not worshiping Christ, but an expression of the agency for which He atoned, and a good-faith effort to abide in the light of Christ granted all people.

2. There is plenty of opposition in the GA’ lives when not traveling, and a lot of suffering they do witness (and carry) behind the scenes when they do.

[Peacefully]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

My 2 cents:

1. Nationalism is nation-centered, not Christ-centered, so it detracts from recognizing the purpose and blessing of the land of the restoration, which is to glorify God. The same with politics: voting is not worshiping Christ, but an expression of the agency for which He atoned, and a good-faith effort to abide in the light of Christ granted all people.

2. There is plenty of opposition in the GA’ lives when not traveling, and a lot of suffering they do witness (and carry) behind the scenes when they do.

2. Also, we have more leaders who are from 3rd world countries who are now part of the conversation and can provide new perspectives. 

[smac97]

On 9/13/2024 at 2:46 PM, Calm said:

My guess is you are using a very different definition of Christian Nationalism than most of those decrying it, yours being more of a generic christian (simply faith) nationalism (perhaps simply patriotism?) than a particular ideology labeled Christian Nationalism.

This seems a good discussion on defining Christian Nationalism and nationalism in general.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/2021/02/what-is-christian-nationalism/

 

I have started two separate threads about Christian Nationalism:

August 2022: Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?"

February 2023: Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?" - Part II

An excerpt from the first thread:

Quote

I do not consider Christian Nationalists my enemy, nor do I wish to do them affirmative harm.  I consider myself to be a fairly religious person.  However, while I share many of the presuppositions that Christian Nationalists hold dear (belief in God, love of country), I am also both an attorney and a Latter-day Saint.  I am therefore particularly concerned with the role of government (via my legal training) in all of our lives, including minority religions (via my membership in the Church).  Consequently, I believe Christian Nationalists to be substantially misguided and wrong, notwithstanding sharing some basic presuppositions with them.  I think they typify the error Paul describes in Romans 10: "Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.  For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.  For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."  In the end, though I disagree with Christian Nationalism and will work against it if such becomes necessary, I bear them no animosity.  
...
I have tried to approach Christian Nationalism in an open-minded, clinical way.  So far my assessment is that it wants "Christianity" (the parameters of which are notably not described) to enjoy elevated and privileged status in the United States.  It wants a state religion.  There are some legitimately concerning racialized aspects to the movement (see, e.g., here, here, here).  Having concluded that Christian Nationalism is problematic, I feel it appropriate to oppose it, and to explain why I oppose it. 

"Christian Nationalism" is a somewhat malleable term, so I compiled a number of articles discussing it.  Two of the more informative ones:

• Christianity Today article: What Is Christian Nationalism?
• Sam Brunson at By Common Consent: Christian Nationalis{m} Is Incompatible with Mormonism

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited September 14, 2024 by smac97

[CV75]

18 hours ago, Peacefully said:

2. Also, we have more leaders who are from 3rd world countries who are now part of the conversation and can provide new perspectives. 

I was including them!  

Edited September 15, 2024 by CV75

[teddyaware]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

I have started two separate threads about Christian Nationalism:

August 2022: Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?"

February 2023: Should Latter-day Saints be Concerned about "Christian Nationalism?" - Part II

An excerpt from the first thread:

"Christian Nationalism" is a somewhat malleable term, so I compiled a number of articles discussing it.  Two of the more informative ones:

• Christianity Today article: What Is Christian Nationalism?
• Sam Brunson at By Common Consent: Christian Nationalis{m} Is Incompatible with Mormonism

Thanks,

-Smac

The doctrine of Christian nationalism, in its truest and unalloyed form, is a major theme throughout the Book of Mormon. Simply stated, the doctrine is that the American promised land, the covenant land of promise now inhabited by the gentiles whom Nephi beheld in his great vision, are under a most solemn covenantal obligation to come unto Christ in humility and repentance, and serve him in righteousness, or be swept off this land of promise after their rejection and rebellion against Christ inevitably causes them to ripen in iniquity and be swept off the land. This solemn obligation to receive, honor and obey Christ was ultimately rebelled against and utterly rejected by two great previous civilizations who once inhabited the American promised land, and true to his word God affirmed his solemn decree by utterly destroying them. That’s what the Book of Mormon teaches us, and as sure shooting, if the Book of Mormon is true, those who reject Christ and rebel against him in our day will face the same fate suffered by the Jaredites and Nephites. There’s no secret about it, and pretending this most solemn divine decree doesn’t apply in our day will reap the whirlwind. Who can deny that the following verses of from the Book of Mormon clearly validate and confirm everything I’ve just said? Only the blind and/or willfully rebellious can deny these sacred things!

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people. Read and weep!

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

So here’s the question. Is it wrong for Latter-Day Saints to teach that this nation must turn unto Christ if it’s going to have a chance of being preserved, or do modern notions of humanism, pluralism and political correctness somehow make the above unalterable divine decree on this land of promise of no effect?

 

[webbles]

29 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So here’s the question. Is it wrong for Latter-Day Saints to teach that this nation must turn unto Christ if it’s going to have a chance of being preserved, or do modern notions of humanism, pluralism and political correctness somehow make the above unalterable divine decree on this land of promise of no effect?

How does Article of Faith 11 fit into this idea?  Or what about the fact that Nauvoo's charter, which Joseph Smith approved, allowed freedom of religion to all Christians and non-Christians?  Don't both of those point to "pluralism"?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The doctrine of Christian nationalism, in its truest and unalloyed form, is a major theme throughout the Book of Mormon.

So Christian Nationalism is a good thing because this version of it you just thought up that bears no resemblance at all to what Christian Nationalism currently actually is might end up being kind of nice?

That is a weird take. It is like me saying that totalitarianism is good because God has complete control of the Universe and in that sense is a totalitarian so totalitarianism must be good.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

How does Article of Faith 11 fit into this idea?  Or what about the fact that Nauvoo's charter, which Joseph Smith approved, allowed freedom of religion to all Christians and non-Christians?  Don't both of those point to "pluralism"?

Stop confusing the issue. The Constitution is good and pure and perfect but we must ignore the bits about the freedom to practice religion in order to ensure the correct religion is recognized. That is an odd stance for members of a minority religion to champion.

It is also worth remembering WHY freedom of religion exists. It is because the Wars of Religion in Europe were incredibly brutal compared to what came before. The solution was to take religious choice out of the realm of politics to stop all the violence. Some want to put it back in because they are convinced they will be in charge and if the violence starts up they hope they will win. They are irresponsible and illiberal and are basically spitting in the faces of what the Founding Fathers were trying to do. “GIVE US A KING!!!!!!!”

[Peacefully]

55 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Stop confusing the issue. The Constitution is good and pure and perfect but we must ignore the bits about the freedom to practice religion in order to ensure the correct religion is recognized. That is an odd stance for members of a minority religion to champion.

It is also worth remembering WHY freedom of religion exists. It is because the Wars of Religion in Europe were incredibly brutal compared to what came before. The solution was to take religious choice out of the realm of politics to stop all the violence. Some want to put it back in because they are convinced they will be in charge and if the violence starts up they hope they will win. They are irresponsible and illiberal and are basically spitting in the faces of what the Founding Fathers were trying to do. “GIVE US A KING!!!!!!!”

I know this has already been said but it bears repeating. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be the favored church under Christian Nationalism. We are still not considered Christian by some evangelicals. Would we be allowed to practice openly? Would we be allowed to keep our temples? Do you want to take that chance? 

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The doctrine of Christian nationalism, in its truest and unalloyed form, is a major theme throughout the Book of Mormon. Simply stated, the doctrine is that the American promised land, the covenant land of promise now inhabited by the gentiles whom Nephi beheld in his great vision, are under a most solemn covenantal obligation to come unto Christ in humility and repentance, and serve him in righteousness, or be swept off this land of promise after their rejection and rebellion against Christ inevitably causes them to ripen in iniquity and be swept off the land. This solemn obligation to receive, honor and obey Christ was ultimately rebelled against and utterly rejected by two great previous civilizations who once inhabited the American promised land, and true to his word God affirmed his solemn decree by utterly destroying them. That’s what the Book of Mormon teaches us, and as sure shooting, if the Book of Mormon is true, those who reject Christ and rebel against him in our day will face the same fate suffered by the Jaredites and Nephites. There’s no secret about it, and pretending this most solemn divine decree doesn’t apply in our day will reap the whirlwind. Who can deny that the following verses of from the Book of Mormon clearly validate and confirm everything I’ve just said? Only the blind and/or willfully rebellious can deny these sacred things!

7 And the Lord would not suffer that they should stop beyond the sea in the wilderness, but he would that they should come forth even unto the land of promise, which was choice above all other lands, which the Lord God had preserved for a righteous people. Read and weep!

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

So here’s the question. Is it wrong for Latter-Day Saints to teach that this nation must turn unto Christ if it’s going to have a chance of being preserved, or do modern notions of humanism, pluralism and political correctness somehow make the above unalterable divine decree on this land of promise of no effect?

 

With our hearts and minds we must turn to Christ. Turn the other cheek, forgive those who sin against you, serve your fellow man. Blessed are at the peacemakers for they will be called children of God.