How close do you think we are to building the Jerusalem temple?

[Doctor Steuss]

On 8/4/2024 at 3:48 PM, blackstrap said:

3. The Muslims might have something to say about construction on the temple mount. 

The Status Quo agreements can't even get a ladder removed from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, that's been sitting there since at least the 1700s.  Having an entirely new building pop up anywhere within the vicinity of one of the nine holy sites would require, literally, an act of God.

Edited August 6, 2024 by Doctor Steuss

[Dario_M]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Someday there will be a physical temple there, I guess, by virtue of their "dotting the land" (Joseph F. Smith, 1900), which scope has expanded across the globe since then. Also because Jerusalem will be one of two seats of government in the Millennium (Zion/New Jerusalem being the other).

How interesting

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Here are some maps of temple locations around the world.  You will notice a lack of them in Russia and China (there is one in Hong Kong and ones planned for Russia and Mongolia, but not built yet…Russia seems to be having problems as it has been several years and the location is not announced yet, there have been difficulties with missionary work and other stuff, so the temple may not happen for awhile).  There aren’t any temples yet as far as I know in the Middle East, one is planned for Dubai.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/see-locations-of-churchs-315-temples-across-6-maps

I'm not surprised that Russia got problems with those matters. 

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, Doctor Steuss said:

The Status Quo agreements can't even get a ladder removed from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, that's been sitting there since at least the 1700s.  Having an entirely new building pop up anywhere within the vicinity of one of the nine holy sites would require, literally, an act of God.

I'm sure God can handle it ... In His time.  See 2 Nephi 27:20, Doctrine and Covenants 88:73.  

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

Here are some maps of temple locations around the world.  You will notice a lack of them in Russia and China (there is one in Hong Kong and ones planned for Russia and Mongolia, but not built yet…Russia seems to be having problems as it has been several years and the location is not announced yet, there have been difficulties with missionary work and other stuff, so the temple may not happen for awhile).  There aren’t any temples yet as far as I know in the Middle East, one is planned for Dubai.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/see-locations-of-churchs-315-temples-across-6-maps

Until the conflict with Ukraine is resolved and some of the sanctions are removed it is doubtful work on Russian temples will begin. That may still be years off.

Dubai is tricky. The stake there covers three nations: The UAE, Qatar, and Oman. They peobably give support to members in Saudi Arabis too. The temple will service members in the middle east, further out in North Africa,  and possibly parts of eastern Europe.

The UAE is tricky though. It is one of the wealthiest nations per capita but that disguises an ugly truth.

See this article about Church and Sikh cooperation in the UAE.

https://news-middleeast.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/sikhs-and-latter-day-saints-in-uae-unite-in-service

So, nice stuff. Giving out food parcels. Then you see it is a little vague about who those are going to: “Over 100 Latter-day Saints joined the Sikh community to distribute 10,000 food kits to workers supporting the rapid growth of the city of Dubai.” So why would employed workers building the city need food donations.

it is probable this is for human trafficking victims. The UAE imports virtually all of its menial labor and debt bondage is used against construction and domestic workers. You grab poor laborers from Pakistan and elsewhere and then charge them years of wages just to pay for the trip over. Then you use the company store model to keep them there. Because these people aren’t citizens or even permanent residents they don’t factor into the nation’s calculated wealth. It is exploitative and evil.

I am not blaming the Church in any way. They have to be very careful dealing with the UAE government.

[The Nehor]

The Jewish temple is potentially close to being built. The extremist groups that advocate for annexing the land for the temple (it is still occupied Jordanian land like all of the west bank and not part of Israel’s sovereign territory) and destroying the mosque there were very fringe but the current far-right Netanyahu government has pulled them into the ruling coalition. Some cabinet ministers have advocated for building the temple and all the geopolitical fallout that would entail. It would be incredibly stupid strategically for Israel to do this but Israel is regularly making stupid decisions so who knows?

[Calm]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not blaming the Church in any way. They have to be very careful dealing with the UAE government.

It is a fine line to be able to maintain a presence in the area in order to have access to those in need.  With that level of wealth backing the government, I highly doubt the type of pressure the Church could provide by going public with accusations could do any good.  They can, imo, do more good behind the scenes at least through humanitarian efforts and maybe even some influence on individuals.  I am kind of surprised it got publicized at all.

What I don’t understand is how it is such a celebrity playground…I mean I get the appeal of the over the top treatment, but am surprised there isn’t the blowback that can be had when it gets known clothing companies are using slave labor down the line….not that such doesn’t continue.

https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-arab-emirates/

Edited August 7, 2024 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

On 8/4/2024 at 3:48 PM, blackstrap said:

4. It does seem that the prophecy about the whole world uniting against Israel is getting closer to fulfillment.

So long as a divinely unsanctioned campaign of genocide continues (to be clear, this isn't some holy war of righteousness) then the world must unite to condemn a regime that is not acting in any good faith. Perhaps, God willing, another exile is in order due to the unrighteousness of Israel.

Furthermore, Jackson County and Jerusalem have no valid connection. Without disrespect, Mormonism is an American religion just as the JW's (no other connection is being claimed by myself). No matter the claims, Mormonism is not, nor will it be, a middle eastern religion. There's no evidence to support that 24 apostles/disciples ever held such a position at the same time. Then there is the chasing of plagiarism with The Restored Branch of Jesus Christ which deals with the ancient people of the British Isles. I've not read their book the Chronicles of the Children of Araneck. But considering their beliefs, I'm guessing they'll have 12 disciples talked about in their book.

Now I'm going to take a step back and give Restorationism a little leeway. Perhaps there were more than the OG12. Perhaps there were more than the OG12 and the 12 of the BoM. Finally, I'm not God. I don't know if He has a hand in Restorationism in particular or as a whole. Ugh! Restorationism is so vast and unlimited. It's like Prostestantism but with a more palatable flavor. 

Thank you for reading my thinking out loud ramble,

Damien the Bad Catholic

[blackstrap]

9 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

the world must unite to condemn a regime

I'm not familiar with scripture that specifies why the world unites against Israel. It could be irrational hatred or righteous indignation.

Either way, the situation supposedly triggers the arrival of Christ. 

[Stargazer]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is a fine line to be able to maintain a presence in the area in order to have access to those in need.  With that level of wealth backing the government, I highly doubt the type of pressure the Church could provide by going public with accusations could do any good.  They can, imo, do more good behind the scenes at least through humanitarian efforts and maybe even some influence on individuals.  I am kind of surprised it got publicized at all.

What I don’t understand is how it is such a celebrity playground…I mean I get the appeal of the over the top treatment, but am surprised there isn’t the blowback that can be had when it gets known clothing companies are using slave labor down the line.

https://www.walkfree.org/global-slavery-index/country-studies/united-arab-emirates/

The explanation is that hypocrisy abounds. Especially among the rich and famous.

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

I'm not familiar with scripture that specifies why the world unites against Israel. It could be irrational hatred or righteous indignation.

I don't think there's a scripture that gives a "why." What does seem to be the case is that over the millennia every regime that has persecuted the Jews has been more or less in league with Satan one way or another. And it seems that Satan has a particular animus against God's ancient chosen people. 

Not that other people haven't been persecuted in an organized way. It's just that the Jews seem to catch it more particularly. 

6 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Either way, the situation supposedly triggers the arrival of Christ. 

Or the arrival of Christ triggers the situation? I wouldn't be too certain about the direction of causality in this case.

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The Jewish temple is potentially close to being built. The extremist groups that advocate for annexing the land for the temple (it is still occupied Jordanian land like all of the west bank and not part of Israel’s sovereign territory) and destroying the mosque there were very fringe but the current far-right Netanyahu government has pulled them into the ruling coalition. Some cabinet ministers have advocated for building the temple and all the geopolitical fallout that would entail. It would be incredibly stupid strategically for Israel to do this but Israel is regularly making stupid decisions so who knows?

Are you not allowing for possible divine influence in the matter of building the temple? There must be some trigger that causes the temple to be built, or else it won't be built. You or I might say that the decision to build it is a strategically stupid thing to do, but if God wants it done, I think He's perfectly able to get it done. On the other hand, and this may be where you're going if divine inspiration/influence isn't involved, it's purely a worldly decision by strategically stupid people, that nevertheless is the trigger that leads inevitably to the Second Coming. 

The question of causality is at hand: does the Second Coming happen because God wills it so? Or does it happen because men bring it about by way of their strategically stupid actions? 

On the third hand, maybe the Second Coming isn't triggered by the building of the temple on the Temple Mount, but happens much later and isn't related to the temple being built at all. 

Hmmm.

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I don't think there's a scripture that gives a "why." What does seem to be the case is that over the millennia every regime that has persecuted the Jews has been more or less in league with Satan one way or another. And it seems that Satan has a particular animus against God's ancient chosen people. 

Not that other people haven't been persecuted in an organized way. It's just that the Jews seem to catch it more particularly. 

Or the arrival of Christ triggers the situation? I wouldn't be too certain about the direction of causality in this case.

I don’t accept that those who occupied Israel were always in league with Satan. At least not anymore than all geopolitical entities are motivated by the calculus of the security dilemma and that states formed specifically to perform violence.

Edited August 7, 2024 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Are you not allowing for possible divine influence in the matter of building the temple? There must be some trigger that causes the temple to be built, or else it won't be built. You or I might say that the decision to build it is a strategically stupid thing to do, but if God wants it done, I think He's perfectly able to get it done. On the other hand, and this may be where you're going if divine inspiration/influence isn't involved, it's purely a worldly decision by strategically stupid people, that nevertheless is the trigger that leads inevitably to the Second Coming. 

The question of causality is at hand: does the Second Coming happen because God wills it so? Or does it happen because men bring it about by way of their strategically stupid actions? 

On the third hand, maybe the Second Coming isn't triggered by the building of the temple on the Temple Mount, but happens much later and isn't related to the temple being built at all. 

Hmmm.

 

If God wants it done it will happen. It does not impute righteousness to those doing it. Through Isaiah God claimed Assyria as His instrument of oppression, death, and displacement.

The problem Israel faces is that it is burning goodwill with its allies at an alarming rate and this is not new. It is a trend that has been around for a while and is now accelerating.

Also the current regime is veering towards authoritarianism and quadi-fascism and if there is one thing history has taught us it is that fascist states are really really bad at the geopolitical game and at war in general. That is one reason I think it is more likely to happen. It is a dumb decision to potentially trigger a holy war but it is the kind of dumb decision a new Mussolini would make. Again, the current regime makes it more likely. A more stable and sane regime would be much less likely to overturn everything.

[Stargazer]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t accept that those who occupied Israel were always in league with Satan. At least not anymore than all geopolitical entities are motivated by the calculus of the security dilemma and that states formed specifically to perform violence.

Of course not always, and I wasn't referring to the territory of Israel, per se, anyway. There was a 2,000 year period during which Jews were largely not there -- though there were never no Jews there. During the time of the Ottoman Empire, for example, besides around 150,000 Jews in the Empire overall during the 16th century (the largest Jewish population in the world at the time), there was a large community of Jews in "Palestine," and they got along just fine. 

I was referring to the pogroms in Russia, the persecution and/or expulsion of Jews at different times from England, Spain, and other places, and of course the troubles with that Austrian guy. And of course recently in connection with the Middle East Muslim troubles.

[Stargazer]

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If God wants it done it will happen. It does not impute righteousness to those doing it. Through Isaiah God claimed Assyria as His instrument of oppression, death, and displacement.

True enough. 

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The problem Israel faces is that it is burning goodwill with its allies at an alarming rate and this is not new. It is a trend that has been around for a while and is now accelerating.

Also the current regime is veering towards authoritarianism and quadi-fascism and if there is one thing history has taught us it is that fascist states are really really bad at the geopolitical game and at war in general. That is one reason I think it is more likely to happen. It is a dumb decision to potentially trigger a holy war but it is the kind of dumb decision a new Mussolini would make. Again, the current regime makes it more likely. A more stable and sane regime would be much less likely to overturn everything.

This could verge onto political matters that probably have no place here, so I'm just going to suggest that blithely trusting news sources that have implicit as well as explicit biases is not a good idea. And I'll leave it at that.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

This could verge onto political matters that probably have no place here, so I'm just going to suggest that blithely trusting news sources that have implicit as well as explicit biases is not a good idea. And I'll leave it at that.

I don’t get the idea that fascist and authoritarian states are bad at war and make stupid geopolitical decisions from the news. i get it from studying history. The archetypal “strong guys” are always showing up and proclaiming that liberal democracies are degenerate and decadent but the ones that choose to test that theory aren’t around anymore.

Or are you talking about the burning goodwill thing? That is just monitoring polls, both domestic and international.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I don’t get the idea that fascist and authoritarian states are bad at war and make stupid geopolitical decisions from the news. i get it from studying history. The archetypal “strong guys” are always showing up and proclaiming that liberal democracies are degenerate and decadent but the ones that choose to test that theory aren’t around anymore.

Didn't think that you got that idea from the news. You may have misidentified who the fascist and authoritarian states are, and it is that misidentification which you may have gotten from the news. Or you may have gotten it from some other source. 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Or are you talking about the burning goodwill thing? That is just monitoring polls, both domestic and international.

No, I wasn't talking about that.

Polls are public opinion. And the public can be misled by misinformation. At least that's what I hear sometimes. 

Just for the fun of it...

 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Didn't think that you got that idea from the news. You may have misidentified who the fascist and authoritarian states are, and it is that misidentification which you may have gotten from the news. Or you may have gotten it from some other source. 

Not fascist. Quasi-fascist, they have a ways to go.

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

No, I wasn't talking about that.

Polls are public opinion. And the public can be misled by misinformation. At least that's what I hear sometimes. 

Just for the fun of it...

Yeah, but the polls are the reality in whether support is eroding. If the people in allied democracies are losing goodwill towards you that is real whether the reasons for it are good or bad or true or untrue.

[blackstrap]

If only we could go back in time and do some ' head slapping ' to Britain and others who were deciding the Israel situation. 🙄

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, but the polls are the reality in whether support is eroding. If the people in allied democracies are losing goodwill towards you that is real whether the reasons for it are good or bad or true or untrue.

Yes, but I was trying to say that polls can be (and are often) manipulated. It's like yard signs. Put up enough yard signs and some people will think a candidate is popular. 

Another example... Violent demonstrations seem convincing, because they get a lot of attention. Until one realizes that they don't necessarily represent the feelings of the majority.

[Stargazer]

On 8/6/2024 at 6:09 PM, Doctor Steuss said:

The Status Quo agreements can't even get a ladder removed from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, that's been sitting there since at least the 1700s.  Having an entirely new building pop up anywhere within the vicinity of one of the nine holy sites would require, literally, an act of God.

I recall hearing Cleon Skousen talking about this. He said he had been in Israel discussing it with some rabbis, and when he said that putting up a temple on the Temple Mount might mean removing the Dome of the Rock, but how can you do that with the Muslim's resisting, they responded with "That's God's problem." I suppose the implication was that God would have to remove it himself, via an earthquake or something.

[Rain]

I just realized what a weird thing this is.  What if there was another religion was looking forward to God pulling down the Salt Lake temple in some way so they could build their own religious building? Or Saint Peter's in the Vatican. Or the great synagogue in Budapest. Or any number of Asian temples. 

Edited August 8, 2024 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

No matter the claims, Mormonism is not, nor will it be, a middle eastern religion

What is a “middle eastern religion”?

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What is a “middle eastern religion”?

Zoroastrianism?