How close do you think we are to building the Jerusalem temple?

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, those who think that realpolitik is just violence are probably confusing cynicism and wisdom. Maintaining the spirits of the people through preparation is actually a good way of practicing realpolitik. For most of human history political power has been about controlling and executing violence. I don’t really like this fact. How I feel about it isn’t really relevant though.

Realpolitik in one form or another has been around for a very long time, but, of course, not by that name. Controlling and executing violence is precisely what Satan promised. It is one way the world tries to deal with “the god of this earth” and his reign of blood and horror. 

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is also why I am glad D&C 134 is not presented as revelation as it starts with:

“We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man;”

That is a really dark statement if you think about it too long.

“We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.

So only a very few governments in roughly the last half a century have ever existed in peace? 

It is canonized scripture, though, and as such it is part of our doctrine and holds a position far greater than mere opinion. It reasserts the divine origin of the American Constitution, details what an ideal government should be, and defines the relationship between church and state. Its principles are often cited by prophets and apostles.  

I’m  not sure what your question means.

Edited August 14, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Take the recent riots/demonstrations here in the UK over that mass stabbing that occurred in Southpark, in which three little girls were killed and several others seriously injured. Because the police concealed who did it (because the perp was technically a minor), many assumed that it had to have been committed by a Muslim, probably an illegal migrant. This was because the police routinely cover up and/or lie about such instances when Muslim illegal migrants or asylum seekers are involved. It didn't help that misinformation about the attacker's identity was spread online. So mobs attacked one or more local mosques, and a facility housing asylum seekers. Later it was revealed that the perp was not Muslim, not an illegal migrant, and was a citizen of and born in the UK, and his parents were legal migrants from Rwanda. The perp suffers from severe autism. My point here is that the protestors/rioters acted on false information they believed to be true.

I have heard this said a lot but never seen it substantiated.

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And that's why I believe the negative popular opinion about Israel's handling of the Gaza situation comes from -- deliberate misinformation and twisting of facts.

They are also horrifically culpable for their actions in Gaza and in the West Bank.

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Realpolitik in one form or another has been around for a very long time, but, of course, not by that name. Controlling and executing violence is precisely what Satan promised. It is one way the world tries to deal with “the god of this earth” and his reign of blood and horror. 

The earth seems designed to provoke conflict. Lands are very unequal. As far as we can tell we have been killing each other ever since we realized that some land is better than others. We probably killed the neanderthals because our ability to speak let us organize more effectively. Then the most successful got control of the renewing flood plain lands and agriculture was developed to feed even more people. We turned from a life of relative leisure as hunter-gatherers to subsistence farming to concentrate population so we could organize in greater numbers and outcompete by killing others more effectively. This ironically probably lowered our numbers of combat deaths per capita. It was only really the industrial revolution that made warfare for economic gain foolhardy. We still fight but we have reached a point where killing each other to acquire land and people isn’t really worth it. We now want the infrastructure more and taking it by force usually destroys it.

God seems to have designed a world that really encourages perpetual conflict. I can’t figure out why.

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It is canonized scripture, though, and as such it is part of our doctrine and holds a position far greater than mere opinion. It reasserts the divine origin of the American Constitution, details what an ideal government should be, and defines the relationship between church and state. Its principles are often cited by prophets and apostles.

It wasn’t written by the Prophet and was one of two statements that were both quasicanonized. The other was Cowdery’s article on marriage that was pulled later as plural marriage made it incredibly silly. I think Section 134 is also silly. It makes statements regarding God’s will that would require revelation.

10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m  not sure what your question means.

If the statement is true then no government has been at peace. The harsh reality is that the conditions D&C 134 give for good government had only existed (as far as we know) for about half a century before the section was written.

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Tragic things that happened in England. So very sad, but more is yet to come there and elsewhere. This genie is out of the bottle and it will be most painful to try to put him back in. 

I see realpolitik as one way the world unwittingly tries to deal with the blood and horror Satan promised when God placed enmity between him and the seed of the woman. The reality, however,  is that we are children of God and that Jesus is Lord of the Earth. 

One basic message of the Book of Mormon - the Lehite covenant - is directed at the inhabitants of this continent. A similar covenant belongs to Israel.

Well said!

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have heard this said a lot but never seen it substantiated.

This is one of those moments when one sits there in front of the keyboard with one's mouth wide open in complete disbelief over what one has just read.

Are you ducking serious, dude? It was head-freaking-line news over here. It was (and still is) a huge scandal over here in the UK.

You want substantiation? I'll give you substantiation. Please read it, if only the synopsis: Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal

Here's a selected sample from the article:

The Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal consists of the organised child sexual abuse that occurred in the town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire, Northern England from the late 1980s until 2013 and the failure of local authorities to act on reports of the abuse throughout most of that period. ... From January 2011 Andrew Norfolk of The Times pressed the issue, reporting in 2012 that the abuse in the town was widespread and that the police and council had known about it for over ten years. ... The abuse included gang rape, forcing children to watch rape, dousing them with petrol and threatening to set them on fire, threatening to rape their mothers and younger sisters, as well as trafficking them to other towns. There were pregnancies (one at age 12), pregnancy terminations, miscarriages, babies raised by their mothers, in addition to babies removed, causing further trauma. ... The failure to address the abuse was attributed to a combination of factors revolving around race, class, religion and gender—fear that the perpetrators' ethnicity would trigger allegations of racism; contemptuous and sexist attitudes toward the mostly working-class victims; lack of a child-centred focus; a desire to protect the town's reputation; and lack of training and resources. ... Rotherham Council's chief executive, its director of children's services, as well as the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Yorkshire Police all resigned."

Have you now seen it substantiated? I suggest you go to YouTube and do a search on "rotherham sex trafficking".

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

They are also horrifically culpable for their actions in Gaza and in the West Bank.

Yes, I agree that Hamas is horrifically culpable for their actions.

Do you seriously want to get this thread shut down?

 

Edited August 14, 2024 by Stargazer

[Bernard Gui]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The earth seems designed to provoke conflict. Lands are very unequal. As far as we can tell we have been killing each other ever since we realized that some land is better than others. We probably killed the neanderthals because our ability to speak let us organize more effectively. Then the most successful got control of the renewing flood plain lands and agriculture was developed to feed even more people. We turned from a life of relative leisure as hunter-gatherers to subsistence farming to concentrate population so we could organize in greater numbers and outcompete by killing others more effectively. This ironically probably lowered our numbers of combat deaths per capita. It was only really the industrial revolution that made warfare for economic gain foolhardy. We still fight but we have reached a point where killing each other to acquire land and people isn’t really worth it. We now want the infrastructure more and taking it by force usually destroys it.

God seems to have designed a world that really encourages perpetual conflict. I can’t figure out why.

It wasn’t written by the Prophet and was one of two statements that were both quasicanonized. The other was Cowdery’s article on marriage that was pulled later as plural marriage made it incredibly silly. I think Section 134 is also silly. It makes statements regarding God’s will that would require revelation.

If the statement is true then no government has been at peace. The harsh reality is that the conditions D&C 134 give for good government had only existed (as far as we know) for about half a century before the section was written.

A petition to have silly quasi-canonized Section 134 removed seems to be in order, then. 😬

The stuff that happens in the world has everything to do with agency. That’s made quite clear in the temple. Along with agency come accountability. Along with agency and  accountability comes Atonement  

 

Quote

…he [God] holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them [governments] both in making laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society…human laws being instituted for the express purpose of regulating our interests as individuals and nations, between man and man; and divine laws given of heaven, prescribing rules on spiritual concerns, for faith and worship, both to be answered by man to his Maker.

There’s gonna be a whole lotta accountin’ and answering’ goin’ on.

 

Edited August 14, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

This is one of those moments when one sits there in front of the keyboard with one's mouth wide open in complete disbelief over what one has just read.

Are you ducking serious, dude? It was head-freaking-line news over here. It was (and still is) a huge scandal over here in the UK.

You want substantiation? I'll give you substantiation. Please read it, if only the synopsis: Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal

Here's a selected sample from the article:

The Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal consists of the organised child sexual abuse that occurred in the town of Rotherham, South Yorkshire, Northern England from the late 1980s until 2013 and the failure of local authorities to act on reports of the abuse throughout most of that period. ... From January 2011 Andrew Norfolk of The Times pressed the issue, reporting in 2012 that the abuse in the town was widespread and that the police and council had known about it for over ten years. ... The abuse included gang rape, forcing children to watch rape, dousing them with petrol and threatening to set them on fire, threatening to rape their mothers and younger sisters, as well as trafficking them to other towns. There were pregnancies (one at age 12), pregnancy terminations, miscarriages, babies raised by their mothers, in addition to babies removed, causing further trauma. ... The failure to address the abuse was attributed to a combination of factors revolving around race, class, religion and gender—fear that the perpetrators' ethnicity would trigger allegations of racism; contemptuous and sexist attitudes toward the mostly working-class victims; lack of a child-centred focus; a desire to protect the town's reputation; and lack of training and resources. ... Rotherham Council's chief executive, its director of children's services, as well as the Police and Crime Commissioner for South Yorkshire Police all resigned."

So one local city goes horribly rotten and this somehow suggests there are widespread police coverups nationwide along ethnic and religious lines?

That would be a twist from when I was there. The police knew hot to persecute minorities back then.

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Have you now seen it substantiated? I suggest you go to YouTube and do a search on "rotherham sex trafficking".

If i ever run a random YouTube search for factual reporting please put a bullet in my head. It will be kinder that way.

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, I agree that Hamas is horrifically culpable for their actions.

Ah yes, the ‘only one side can be evil’ defense.

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The police knew hot to persecute minorities back then.

Not to or how to?

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

ever run a random YouTube search for factual reporting please put a bullet in my head. It will be kinder that way.

It’s not that efficient, for sure.