How close do you think we are to building the Jerusalem temple?

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I recall hearing Cleon Skousen talking about this. He said he had been in Israel discussing it with some rabbis, and when he said that putting up a temple on the Temple Mount might mean removing the Dome of the Rock, but how can you do that with the Muslim's resisting, they responded with "That's God's problem." I suppose the implication was that God would have to remove it himself, via an earthquake or something.

They would want to rebuild it or at least still venerate the site. Natural causes knocking it over wouldn’t solve the religious and political problems.

14 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, but I was trying to say that polls can be (and are often) manipulated. It's like yard signs. Put up enough yard signs and some people will think a candidate is popular. 

Another example... Violent demonstrations seem convincing, because they get a lot of attention. Until one realizes that they don't necessarily represent the feelings of the majority.

Assuming all polling (and this is on an international level and involves many groups conducting polls) is bunk is silly.

[Teancum]

On 8/5/2024 at 6:13 PM, Stargazer said:

In the early days of the original church most members were certain the 2nd coming was right around the corner, too. Meanwhile, 2,000 years later...

Yep. And 2000 years from now if there are any believers they will still be waiting.

On 8/5/2024 at 6:13 PM, Stargazer said:

But it seems that things are starting to pile up. 

And that is what people have been saying for a long long time as well.

[Teancum]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

I just realized what a weird thing this is.  What if there was another religion was looking forward to God pulling down the Salt Lake temple in some way so they could build their own religious building? Or Saint Peter's in the Vatican. Or the great synagogue in Budapest. Or any number of Asian temples. 

Such is religion.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

I just realized what a weird thing this is.  What if there was another religion was looking forward to God pulling down the Salt Lake temple in some way so they could build their own religious building? Or Saint Peter's in the Vatican. Or the great synagogue in Budapest. Or any number of Asian temples. 

Christianity is a Jewish heresy. Islam is a Christian heresy. So shared holy sites which often doesn’t go well. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

They would want to rebuild it or at least still venerate the site. Natural causes knocking it over wouldn’t solve the religious and political problems.

I'm sure you're correct on that.

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Assuming all polling (and this is on an international level and involves many groups conducting polls) is bunk is silly.

Didn't assume that. Did I say I assumed that? I have just been pointing out that polling has inherent flaws, including intentional and unintentional ones.

And if international news were reporting that the The Nehor was this bad thing and that bad thing to all and sundry, wouldn't polling tend to confirm that The Nehor was a really bad man? I'm sure it would. But would it be true?

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Yep. And 2000 years from now if there are any believers they will still be waiting.

I should like to live long enough to see if that's the case in 2,000 years.

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

And that is what people have been saying for a long long time as well.

Yes. Wouldn't it be interesting if it actually happened though?   I mean, wouldn't it be nice to find out you were wrong?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

And if international news were reporting that the The Nehor was this bad thing and that bad thing to all and sundry, wouldn't polling tend to confirm that The Nehor was a really bad man? I'm sure it would. But would it be true?

Probably would be true. When it comes to public support though which is what I was talking about facts and truth only have a loose correlation with who supports whom.

[Kenngo1969]

On 8/5/2024 at 5:25 PM, CV75 said:

Ever since the 2nd Temple was destroyed, there has been an old Jewish hope that the Third Temple will be rebuilt. Where is this confirmed in the latter-day scriptures?  From these I know there will be a temple in the New Jerusalem (Zion); two Millennial seats of reigning power (Zion and Jerusalem); all these terms and others (including "Israel" and even "temple") can be used metaphorically as well as literally.

What is the actual prophecy -- something said in General Conference or a journal? Please provide; thank you in advance.

For clarification, you're asking where a prophecy is located that states that a Temple will be [re]built in Jerusalem?

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Probably would be true. When it comes to public support though which is what I was talking about facts and truth only have a loose correlation with who supports whom.

Facts and truth are not always evident, especially when there is an active and wide campaign to disguise what is actually true in favor of things which are not facts and are not true.

If you consider the kind of "facts and truth" that anti-Mormons promulgate against us, on which side do you think the polls tend to come down on? Consider the question that I have been asked a couple of times: "How many wives do you have?" The question is sometimes asked in all seriousness because the questioner has been deceived into believing that polygamy is still practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Consider all the other BS that the Church is "known" for that is utterly false, and that if polled, plenty of people would aver that those things are true, out of ignorance.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

For clarification, you're asking where a prophecy is located that states that a Temple will be [re]built in Jerusalem?

Yes, I found Orson Hyde's dedicatory prayer about raising one in the Holy Land, which I posted in the wrong thread!  !!!

Here it is again, in the right thread (oy veh!):

---

Orson Hyde dedicated and consecrated the Holy Land (History of the Church, Volume IV, Chapter XXVI): https://archive.org/stream/HistoryOfTheChurchhcVolumes1-7original1902EditionPdf/hoc_djvu.txt  This link includes his prayer on the Mount of Olives, which mentions building a temple:

"Now, O Lord! Thy servant has been obedient to the heavenly vision which Thou gavest him in his native land; and under the shadow of Thine outstretched arm, he has safely arrived in this place to dedicate and consecrate this land unto Thee, for the gathering together of Judah's scattered remnants, according to the predictions of the holy Prophets -- for the building up of Jerusalem again after it has been trodden down by the Gentiles so long, and for rearing a Temple in honor of Thy name. "

Here is the full prayer, copied below. Can anyone get a sense of timing from it? How long is "so long" (referencing the quote above, it seemed to be a given that Jerusalem had already been trodden down for "so long"). It seems the blessings of the gathering have been going on for decades, but no peace, which oddly (to me) isn't mentioned in the prayer but is quite accurate!

Prayer of Orson Hyde on the Mount of Olives. "O Thou! who art from 
everlasting to everlasting, eternally and unchangeably the same, even the 
God who rules in the heavens above, and controls the destinies of men on 
the earth, wilt Thou not condescend, through thine infinite goodness and 
royal favor, to listen to the prayer of Thy servant which he this day 
offers up unto Thee in the name of Thy holy child Jesus, upon this land, 
where the Son of Righteousness set in blood, and thine Anointed One 
expired. 

"Be pleased, O Lord, to forgive all the follies, weaknesses, 
vanities, and sins of Thy servant, and strengthen him to resist all future 
temptations. Give him prudence and discernment that he may avoid the evil, 
and a heart to choose the good; give him fortitude to bear up under trying 
and adverse circumstances, and grace to endure all things for Thy name's 
sake, until the end shall come, when all the Saints shall rest in peace. 

Now, O Lord! Thy servant has been obedient to the heavenly vision 
which Thou gavest him in his native land; and under the shadow of Thine 
outstretched arm, he has safely arrived in this place to dedicate and 
consecrate this land unto Thee, for the gathering together of Judah's 
scattered remnants, according to the predictions of the holy Prophets— for 
the building up of Jerusalem again after it has been trodden down by the 
Gentiles so long, and for rearing a Temple in honor of Thy name. 
Everlasting thanks be ascribed unto Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and 
earth, that Thou hast preserved Thy servant from the dangers of the seas, 
and from the plague and pestilence which have caused the land to mourn. 
The violence of man has also been restrained, and Thy providential care by 
night and by day has been exercised over Thine unworthy servant. Accept, 
therefore, O Lord, the tribute of a grateful heart for all past favors, 
and be pleased to continue Thy kindness and mercy towards a needy worm of 
the dust. 

"O Thou, Who didst covenant with Abraham, Thy friend, and who didst 
renew that covenant with Isaac, and confirm the same with Jacob with an 
oath, that Thou wouldst not only give them this land for an everlasting 
inheritance, but that Thou wouldst also remember their seed forever. 
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have long since closed their eyes in death, and 
made the grave their mansion. Their children are scattered and dispersed 
abroad among the nations of the Gentiles like sheep that have no shepherd, 
and are still looking forward for the fulfillment of those promises which 
Thou didst make concerning them; and even this land, which once poured 
forth nature's richest bounty, and flowed, as it were, with milk and 
honey, has, to a certain extent, been smitten with barrenness and 
sterility since it drank from murderous hands the blood of Him who never 
sinned. 

"Grant, therefore, O Lord, in the name of Thy well-beloved Son, Jesus 
Christ, to remove the barrenness and sterility of this land, and let 
springs of living water break forth to water its thirsty soil. Let the 
vine and olive produce in their strength, and the fig-tree bloom and 
flourish. Let the land become abundantly fruitful when possessed by its 
rightful heirs; let it again flow with plenty to feed the returning 
prodigals who come home with a spirit of grace and supplication; upon it 
let the clouds distil virtue and richness, and let the fields smile with 
plenty. Let the flocks and the herds greatly increase and multiply upon 
the mountains and the hills; and let Thy great kindness conquer and subdue 
the unbelief of Thy people. Do Thou take from them their stony heart, and 
give them a heart of flesh; and may the Sun of Thy favor dispel the cold 
mists of darkness which have beclouded their atmosphere. Incline them to 
gather in upon this land according to Thy word. Let them come like clouds 
and like doves to their windows. Let the large ships of the nations bring 
them from the distant isles; and let kings become their nursing fathers, 
and queens with motherly fondness wipe the tear of sorrow from their eye. 

"Thou, O Lord, did once move upon the heart of Cyrus to show favor 
unto Jerusalem and her children. Do Thou now also be pleased to inspire 
the hearts of kings and the powers of the earth to look with a friendly 
eye towards this place, and with a desire to see Thy righteous purposes 
executed in relation thereto. Let them know that it is Thy good pleasure 
to restore the kingdom unto Israel— raise up Jerusalem as its capital, and 
constitute her people a distinct nation and government, with David Thy 
servant, even a descendant from the loins of ancient David to be their 
king. 

"Let that nation or that people who shall take an active part in 
behalf of Abraham's children, and in the raising up of Jerusalem, find 
favor in Thy sight. Let not their enemies prevail against them, neither 
let pestilence or famine overcome them, but let the glory of Israel 
overshadow them, and the power of the Highest protect them; while that 
nation or kingdom that will not serve Thee in this glorious work must 
perish, according to Thy word — Yea, those nations shall be utterly 
wasted." 

"Though Thy servant is now far from his home, and from the land 
bedewed with his earliest tear, yet he remembers, O Lord, his friend: who 
are there, and family, whom for Thy sake he has left. Though poverty and 
privation be our earthly lot, yet ah! do Thou richly endow us with an 
inheritance where moth and rust do not corrupt, and where thieves do not 
break through and steal. 

"The hands that have fed, clothed, or shown favor unto the family of 
Thy servant in his absence, or that shall hereafter do so, let them not 
lose their reward, but let a special blessing rest upon them, and in Thy 
kingdom let them have an inheritance when Thou shalt come to be glorified 
in this society. 

"Do Thou also look with favor upon all those through whose liberality 
I have been enabled to come to this land; and in the day when Thou shalt 
reward all people according to their works, let these also not be passed 
by or forgotten, but in time let them be in readiness to enjoy the glory 
of those mansions which Jesus has gone to prepare. Particularly do Thou 
bless the stranger in Philadelphia, whom I never saw, but who sent me 
gold, with a request that I should pray for him in Jerusalem. Now, O Lord, 
let blessings come upon him from an unexpected quarter, and let his basket 
be filled, and his storehouse abound with plenty, and let not the good 
things of the earth be his only portion, but let him be found among those 
to whom it shall be said, 'Thou hast been faithful over a few things, and 
I will make thee ruler over many.' 

"O my Father in heaven! I now ask Thee in the name of Jesus to 
remember Zion, with all her Stakes, and with all her assemblies. She has 
been grievously afflicted and smitten; she has mourned; she has wept; her 
enemies have triumphed, and have said, 'Ah, where is thy God?' Her Priests 
and Prophets have groaned in chains and fetters within the gloomy walls of 
prisons, while many were slain, and now sleep in the arms of death. How 
long, O Lord, shall iniquity triumph, and sin go unpunished? 

"Do Thou arise in the majesty of Thy strength, and make bare Thine 
arm in behalf of Thy people. Redress their wrongs, and turn their sorrow 
into joy. Pour the spirit of light and knowledge, grace and wisdom, into 
the hearts of her Prophets, and clothe her Priests with salvation. Let 
light and knowledge march forth through the empire of darkness, and may 
the honest in heart flow to their standard, and join in the march to go 
forth to meet the Bridegroom. 

Let a peculiar blessing rest upon the Presidency of Thy Church, for 
at them are the arrows of the enemy directed. Be Thou to them a sun and a 
shield, their strong tower and hiding place; and in the time of distress 
or danger be Thou near to deliver. Also the quorum of the Twelve, do Thou 
be pleased to stand by them for Thou knowest the obstacles which they have 
to encounter, the temptations to which they are exposed, and the 
privations which they must suffer. Give us, [the Twelve] therefore, 
strength according to our day, and help us to bear a faithful testimony of 
Jesus and His Gospel, to finish with fidelity and honor the work which 
Thou hast given us to do, and then give us a place in Thy glorious 
kingdom. And let this blessing rest upon every faithful officer and member 
in Thy Church. And all the glory and honor will we ascribe unto God and 
the Lamb forever and ever. Amen." 

 

Edited August 9, 2024 by CV75

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/8/2024 at 2:40 PM, Nofear said:

Zoroastrianism?

Judaism, Christianity, Islam?

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/7/2024 at 6:50 PM, The Nehor said:

Not fascist. Quasi-fascist, they have a ways to go.

Yeah, but the polls are the reality in whether support is eroding. If the people in allied democracies are losing goodwill towards you that is real whether the reasons for it are good or bad or true or untrue.

What if those people are wrong?

[Stargazer]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What if those people are wrong?

Well, facts don't matter. Of greatest importance is people's feelings or opinions.

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What if those people are wrong?

Then they are wrong. I don’t think they are but emotion and commitment can fade whether the reasons are good or bad.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

Well, facts don't matter. Of greatest importance is people's feelings or opinions.

In this specific context this is correct. In others if people try to live without facts they tend to be brought up short by reality at some point.

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

In this specific context this is correct. In others if people try to live without facts they tend to be brought up short by reality at some point.

Yes, they do.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Judaism, Christianity, Islam?

All ridiculous heresies from the true faith of Canaanite polytheism.

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/8/2024 at 6:23 PM, The Nehor said:

Assuming all polling (and this is on an international level and involves many groups conducting polls) is bunk is silly.

I have little confidence in polls that do not take into consideration the honesty, integrity, and familiarity of those who are being polled with the subject of the poll…which for me means most popular polls today. I am reminded of Mosiah’s advice to the Nephites when there was a question about who should be their king. Mosiah 28:

Quote

 

Mosiah 28:25 Therefore, choose you by the voice of this people, judges, that ye may be judged according to the laws which have been given you by our fathers, which are correct, and which were given them by the hand of the Lord.

26 Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law—to do your business by the voice of the people.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

 

Indeed, when the majority of the people chose evil over good they were destroyed. Polls do not necessarily lead one to choose the right. 

Edited August 13, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[The Nehor]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have little confidence in polls that do not take into consideration the honesty, integrity, and familiarity of those who are being polled with the subject of the poll…which for me means most popular polls today. I am reminded of Mosiah’s advice to the Nephited when there was a question about who should be their king. Mosiah 28:

Indeed, when the majority of the people chose evil over good they were destroyed. Polls do not necessarily lead one to choose th3 right. 

I wasn’t making a moral statement. I was saying that actions were eroding support that could be critical later. In that context it doesn’t matter whether people are right or not. Saying people are ignorant doesn’t change that. This is realpolitik.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wasn’t making a moral statement. I was saying that actions were eroding support that could be critical later. In that context it doesn’t matter whether people are right or not. Saying people are ignorant doesn’t change that. This is realpolitik.

Those who engage in realpolitik bank on deceiving and keeping the people in ignorance. It’s the way of powerful on the earth as Satan rules it with blood and horror.  

Mosiah and all Nephite leaders believed that the morality and thoughtful preparation of the people in general were paramount for their prosperity and survival. I would call that Lehitepolitik. It especially applies to those of us on this continent. One might reasonably infer that it also applies to the other Promised Land.

Edited August 13, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

On 8/8/2024 at 8:10 PM, Stargazer said:

I should like to live long enough to see if that's the case in 2,000 years.

Yes. Wouldn't it be interesting if it actually happened though?   I mean, wouldn't it be nice to find out you were wrong?

Either way, we will all live that long. 

I often think of Nephi (under imminent threat of death) when he was told, “Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfill all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.”

And the faithful Nephites and their persecutors on the third day of the first month, in the thirty and fourth year. They had no idea what was coming their way on the fourth day. 

Sooner or later, it will all come to pass. 

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I wasn’t making a moral statement. I was saying that actions were eroding support that could be critical later. In that context it doesn’t matter whether people are right or not. Saying people are ignorant doesn’t change that. This is realpolitik.

Very observant, and correct.

[Stargazer]

47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Those who engage in realpolitik bank on deceiving and keeping the people in ignorance. It’s the way of powerful on the earth as Satan rules it with blood and horror.  

While I don't think you're disagreeing with him here, I think what he was getting at was that regardless of the actual facts, what people believe is true will have its effects, regardless.

Take the recent riots/demonstrations here in the UK over that mass stabbing that occurred in Southpark, in which three little girls were killed and several others seriously injured. Because the police concealed who did it (because the perp was technically a minor), many assumed that it had to have been committed by a Muslim, probably an illegal migrant. This was because the police routinely cover up and/or lie about such instances when Muslim illegal migrants or asylum seekers are involved. It didn't help that misinformation about the attacker's identity was spread online. So mobs attacked one or more local mosques, and a facility housing asylum seekers. Later it was revealed that the perp was not Muslim, not an illegal migrant, and was a citizen of and born in the UK, and his parents were legal migrants from Rwanda. The perp suffers from severe autism. My point here is that the protestors/rioters acted on false information they believed to be true.

Realpolitik pertains to perceived reality, and not necessarily to actual reality. Although occasionally perception does match actuality, it is too frequently not the case.

And that's why I believe the negative popular opinion about Israel's handling of the Gaza situation comes from -- deliberate misinformation and twisting of facts.

47 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Mosiah and all Nephite leaders believed that the morality and thoughtful preparation of the people in general were paramount for their prosperity and survival. I would call that Lehitepolitik. It especially applies to those of us on this continent. One might reasonably infer that it also applies to the other Promised Land.

I believe it applies everywhere.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Those who engage in realpolitik bank on deceiving and keeping the people in ignorance. It’s the way of powerful on the earth as Satan rules it with blood and horror.  

Mosiah and all Nephite leaders believed that the morality and thoughtful preparation of the people in general were paramount for their prosperity and survival. I would call that Lehitepolitik. It especially applies to those of us on this continent. One might reasonably infer that it also applies to the other Promised Land.

No, those who think that realpolitik is just violence are probably confusing cynicism and wisdom. Maintaining the spirits of the people through preparation is actually a good way of practicing realpolitik. For most of human history political power has been about controlling and executing violence. I don’t really like this fact. How I feel about it isn’t really relevant though.

It is also why I am glad D&C 134 is not presented as revelation as it starts with:

“We believe that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man;”

That is a really dark statement if you think about it too long.

“We believe that no government can exist in peace, except such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life.”

So only a very few governments in roughly the last half a century have ever existed in peace? 

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

While I don't think you're disagreeing with him here, I think what he was getting at was that regardless of the actual facts, what people believe is true will have its effects, regardless.

Take the recent riots/demonstrations here in the UK over that mass stabbing that occurred in Southpark, in which three little girls were killed and several others seriously injured. Because the police concealed who did it (because the perp was technically a minor), many assumed that it had to have been committed by a Muslim, probably an illegal migrant. This was because the police routinely cover up and/or lie about such instances when Muslim illegal migrants or asylum seekers are involved. It didn't help that misinformation about the attacker's identity was spread online. So mobs attacked one or more local mosques, and a facility housing asylum seekers. Later it was revealed that the perp was not Muslim, not an illegal migrant, and was a citizen of and born in the UK, and his parents were legal migrants from Rwanda. The perp suffers from severe autism. My point here is that the protestors/rioters acted on false information they believed to be true.

Realpolitik pertains to perceived reality, and not necessarily to actual reality. Although occasionally perception does match actuality, it is too frequently not the case.

And that's why I believe the negative popular opinion about Israel's handling of the Gaza situation comes from -- deliberate misinformation and twisting of facts.

I believe it applies everywhere.

Tragic things that happened in England. So very sad, but more is yet to come there and elsewhere. This genie is out of the bottle and it will be most painful to try to put him back in. 

I see realpolitik as one way the world unwittingly tries to deal with the blood and horror Satan promised when God placed enmity between him and the seed of the woman. The reality, however,  is that we are children of God and that Jesus is Lord of the Earth. 

One basic message of the Book of Mormon - the Lehite covenant - is directed at the inhabitants of this continent. A similar covenant belongs to Israel.