Recent updates to General Handbook

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I can’t imagine what an unacceptable apron might look like.  

This made my laugh! Sorry, it was funny. But tragically, I can imagine it.

If one were to follow the standard pattern that the church had put forth, then no, there wouldn't be a problem. However, I can picture someone making embellishments that could be seen as... questionable, perhaps? Checking online I saw a photograph of an apron with outlines of marijuana leaves instead of fig leaves. A Canadian patriot might prefer maple leaves. Because my Native American ancestors used acorns as a staple food, I might like oak leaves.

[telnetd]

On 6/2/2024 at 1:28 PM, Stargazer said:

And kind of unenforceable.

You're right.   Unless church officials start inspecting peoples' temple garments to see 
if they're official and then start disciplinary actions, whatever they may be.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

You're right.   Unless church officials start inspecting peoples' temple garments to see 
if they're official and then start disciplinary actions, whatever they may be.

Actually, very few things make one subject to a membership council. 

[telnetd]

19 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Actually, very few things make one subject to a membership council. 

Then it appears the disciplinary actions (punishments) ultimately fall to God to 
judge those who disobey the policies and commands of the General Handbook.

[SkyRock]

Someone who reviewed the changes in detail noticed that the ability to serve a mission after serious sins is now an issue that doesn't go above the Area Presidency and that the wording seems to indicate that there is no longer a permanent "bar" but rather sufficient but indetriment time for a potential missionary to show repentance.

I know one potential missionary who has now waited 6 months to serve a mission (and about 2 years after confessing serious sins).  It looks like he might be able to go out within the year if the new Handbook is followed. 

[ksfisher]

51 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

Someone who reviewed the changes in detail noticed that the ability to serve a mission after serious sins is now an issue that doesn't go above the Area Presidency

In general the church is trying to have more decision making not go above the area presidency level.

[Duncan]

In my older sister's ward there is a 23 yr old sister missionary who is divorced

[LoudmouthMormon]

36 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

In general the church is trying to have more decision making not go above the area presidency level.

An obvious common sense move for a global church that passed 17 million members the other year.  There's only so much that 3+12 can do.

 

 

 

[bluebell]

55 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

In general the church is trying to have more decision making not go above the area presidency level.

That makes sense, with the number of church members now.

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, telnetd said:

Then it appears the disciplinary actions (punishments) ultimately fall to God to 
judge those who disobey the policies and commands of the General Handbook.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that God will punish those who "disobey" the policies and commands of the General Handbook? 

And by the way, what "commands" in the General Handbook are you talking about? 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Just now, Stargazer said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that God will punish those who "disobey" the policies and commands of the General Handbook? 

I’m an apostate, so I didn’t say anything, but the idea that the supreme being of the universe at judgement day is going to “punish” someone for a handmade apron that otherwise was unobjectionable gave me a good laugh. And honestly, I’m not saying that the guidelines are misplaced. Somewhere someone made a distracting apron. 🤷‍♂️

[SkyRock]

The only thing I don't like about the split between Area Presidency and General Authorities is that it creates a even greater separation that increases tendencies of core vs all else common in many institutions.  This isn't a new issue. 

In the 50s and 60s, then Elder Kimball dealt with many issues with personal worthiness that these days would even struggle to get to the Area Presidency.

The institutional growth of the 70s onward created a more bureaucratic church with all the tendencies of a bureaucracy.

I have recently reviewed some old notes and letters from a now deceased brother who served as stake president in the 80s.  There was a sudden turn in the mid-80s where the institutional church and leadership acted in ways that would most charitiably called "imperious" and "arrogrant". 

Reading these letters and notes now was rather disturbing to me.  It seemed much more similar to a corporate VP interacting with a peon out in the sticks instead of a priesthood brotherhood.   

Let's just say that I have spent a lot of time reconciling the clear unrighteous dominion with what I have seen in other instances in the church.  The church is true in spite of its flawed leadership not because of it. 

[Stargazer]

13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m an apostate,

But a very nice one!  

13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

so I didn’t say anything, but the idea that the supreme being of the universe at judgement day is going to “punish” someone for a handmade apron that otherwise was unobjectionable gave me a good laugh.

That's actually funny to me, too. Making a homemade apron that is otherwise unobjectionable is clearly not a sin.

As far as punishment in general is concerned, however, the supreme being of the universe must care about the breaking of commandments, and as Alma said, if he does not, he would cease to be God. But that pertains to commandments, not policies. Unless a policy involves a commandment, I guess. Perhaps you may remember Alma 42, which discusses this rather thoroughly.

From Alma 42:

22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.
23 But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement; and the atonement bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead; and the resurrection of the dead bringeth back men into the presence of God; and thus they are restored into his presence, to be judged according to their works, according to the law and justice.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

How would God cease to be God? By his creation ceasing to obey Him. He maintains his creation by virtue of His virtue and by the justice of his justice. 

Which is why a Savior was required, whose sacrifice satisfies justice for the repentant, or else we would all be lost. It should be clear that what makes God god is that he is seen to be eternally righteous and just. He is obeyed because he is just. If he ceases to be just, then he will cease to be God. 

13 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And honestly, I’m not saying that the guidelines are misplaced. Somewhere someone made a distracting apron. 🤷‍♂️

I did see one in a Bing search that was embroidered with cannabis leaves. I'd like to have one with oak leaves, personally. To honor my Native American ancestors -- for whom the acorn was an extremely important staple crop.

[Stargazer]

30 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

The only thing I don't like about the split between Area Presidency and General Authorities is that it creates a even greater separation that increases tendencies of core vs all else common in many institutions.  This isn't a new issue. 

In the 50s and 60s, then Elder Kimball dealt with many issues with personal worthiness that these days would even struggle to get to the Area Presidency.

The institutional growth of the 70s onward created a more bureaucratic church with all the tendencies of a bureaucracy.

I have recently reviewed some old notes and letters from a now deceased brother who served as stake president in the 80s.  There was a sudden turn in the mid-80s where the institutional church and leadership acted in ways that would most charitiably called "imperious" and "arrogrant". 

Reading these letters and notes now was rather disturbing to me.  It seemed much more similar to a corporate VP interacting with a peon out in the sticks instead of a priesthood brotherhood.   

Let's just say that I have spent a lot of time reconciling the clear unrighteous dominion with what I have seen in other instances in the church.  The church is true in spite of its flawed leadership not because of it. 

This is a tendency of human beings that won't be resolved properly in mortality. I don't think it will be addressed perfectly even during the Millennium.

But this is how it must operate so as not to clog things up. The solution dates to Exodus.

In Exodus 18 Moses meets with his father-in-law, Jethro, and Jethro observes Moses dealing with all matters pertaining to governance among the Israelites, and he tell him this is not good.

17 And Moses’ father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.

Jethro counsels him and advises that he create, in effect, a bureaucracy:

19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

And that's what Moses did. It's not a perfect system, but it's necessary.

[Rain]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

In my older sister's ward there is a 23 yr old sister missionary who is divorced

On my mission more than 30 years ago there was a young 20 something divorced sister as well. More recently, in my extended family there was a 20 something widowed sister. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

18 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

the idea that the supreme being of the universe at judgement day is going to “punish” someone for a handmade apron that otherwise was unobjectionable gave me a good laugh. And honestly, I’m not saying that the guidelines are misplaced. Somewhere someone made a distracting apron. 🤷‍♂️

Honestly, me too.    I've spent a lifetime trying to be less distracted by the things that humans do, but I've still got a long way to go.  I mean, I'll always love going online and battling it out with smart people who don't think like me.  But I'm also someone who would struggle mightily at not getting distracted at the temple if [random example] some woke girl saint showed up with her custom apron with rainbow edging in celebration of pride month. [/random example]

At the end of the day, it's up to me to bring my best self to the temple, to get the most out of it.  It's up to me to not get distracted.  That said, I really value the temple - it's the Mormon's quintessential "safe space".  Where we go to be united in faith and fellowship.  Together as one in belief and practice.  So I don't mind policies that help people conform in ways I find appropriate.  

 

Edited June 7, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

But I'm also someone who would struggle mightily at not getting distracted at the temple if [random example] some woke girl saint showed up with her custom apron with rainbow edging in celebration of pride month

At least the rainbow is scriptural….red, white, and blue would get to me.  It’s not an aesthetically pleasing combo for one thing.

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

But I'm also someone who would struggle mightily at not getting distracted at the temple if [random example] some woke girl saint showed up with her custom apron with rainbow edging in celebration of pride month. [/random example]

Shoot, I guess I'm going to have to remove the custom modifications I made to mine.  And I was thinking the Kansas City Chiefs team colors made a welcome contrast to the traditional green apron color.

[telnetd]

On 6/6/2024 at 7:37 PM, Stargazer said:

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you suggesting that God will punish those who "disobey" the policies and commands of the General Handbook? 

And by the way, what "commands" in the General Handbook are you talking about? 

It the church elders won't discipline those who disobey the policies or commands,
then it would ultimately fall to God to perform this.

As for commands, I did not read all of the handbook  😀   I just brought up one example.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng&id=title_number233-p2444#title_number233

Making Temple Clothing

Members should not make ceremonial temple clothing or temple garments.
 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

It the church elders won't discipline those who disobey the policies or commands,
then it would ultimately fall to God to perform this.

As for commands, I did not read all of the handbook  😀   I just brought up one example.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng&id=title_number233-p2444#title_number233

Making Temple Clothing

Members should not make ceremonial temple clothing or temple garments.
 

What punishment do you believe the church elders (or God, in the afterlife) should inflict on a member who lights a candle in church?  Or who cooks in the kitchen?  Or makes their own temple apron?

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

At least the rainbow is scriptural….red, white, and blue would get to me.  It’s not an aesthetically pleasing combo for one thing.

Yep, as I think about it, I'd be about equally as distracted and judgmental if someone made an apron making some sort of political statement.  Even if it's a statement with which I agree, it still doesn't belong in the temple.

[Calm]

55 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yep, as I think about it, I'd be about equally as distracted and judgmental if someone made an apron making some sort of political statement.  Even if it's a statement with which I agree, it still doesn't belong in the temple.

I would have a problem with just an ugly apron. 😛 

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, telnetd said:

It the church elders won't discipline those who disobey the policies or commands,
then it would ultimately fall to God to perform this.

Would God deign to discipline anyone making their own ceremonial clothing?  People used to do this with no restrictions. This means that the act of making such clothing is not inherently sinful. 

8 hours ago, telnetd said:

As for commands, I did not read all of the handbook  😀   I just brought up one example.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng&id=title_number233-p2444#title_number233

Making Temple Clothing

Members should not make ceremonial temple clothing or temple garments.
 

I was a ward clerk once upon a time. During my tenure a new bishopric was called. In the first few months the new bishop inadvertently violated a policy that members who had been excommunicated had to go through a particular process before being rebaptized. Actually, the sister believed she had resigned her membership -- and that's what the bishop believed. But it turned out that she had been exed. It may have been that she hadn't bothered to open the letter telling her she was exed, and she thought her resignation had gone through. So she was re-baptized, all was thought well, and then the bishop was notified by SLC of his error. In fact, he hadn't been fully aware of how to handle the rebaptism of resigned members, either, so he messed up both ways! But SLC decided that nevermind, it's all good, and let's just drop the matter, and all's well that ends well. If the policy was really all so strict, SLC would have required that she be rebaptized again after going through the proper procedures. But they didn't. So it would appear that policy violations are not on a par with commandments. And aren't per se sinful.

But willful violations of policy might be treated differently. Like, say, ordaining a woman to the priesthood. Or issuing a temple recommend to a transgender for other than their biological sex.

[LoudmouthMormon]

55 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

policy violations are not on a par with commandments

I want that bumper sticker.  Or at least that on a t-shirt.  And when people ask me what it means, I'll only say "what do you think it means?"

[JAHS]

10 hours ago, telnetd said:

It the church elders won't discipline those who disobey the policies or commands,
then it would ultimately fall to God to perform this.

As for commands, I did not read all of the handbook  😀   I just brought up one example.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/38-church-policies-and-guidelines?lang=eng&id=title_number233-p2444#title_number233

Making Temple Clothing

Members should not make ceremonial temple clothing or temple garments.
 

God knows what is in our hearts and as long as we obey his commandments and the covenants we make at baptism and the temple, I don't think there is anything to worry about.  So don't sweat the small stuff.