Recent updates to General Handbook

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That is, in essence, what I have been trying to say.

In terms of Jesus's Parable of the Talents, I add a level.

• The one who received five talents and doubled it to ten gets the Celestial Kingdom
• The one who received two and doubled it to four gets the Terrestrial Kingdom
• Two receive one talent each,
  • One of the two puts his talent out to the money lenders so it earns interest and he gets the Telestial Kingdom
  • The other one who buried his talent in the earth gets kicked into Outer Darkness

Or maybe that's all rubbish. OK, it's definitely rubbish, but I had fun coming up with it at least.

Yep

Not rubbish, a valid working model!  But I think the exaltation is in the doubling, not in the original endowment or final tally of talents. Anyone who doubles, no matter where they begin, is exalted. That to me is grace in action. Even that last person who buries the talent gets a resurrection. Some seem to bury five talents; perhaps they undervalue them as only one.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

My assumption has been that everyone is saved (resurrected) by grace for just qualifying to come to earth, and then can be exalted as that grace extends to the covenants we are willing and trying to accept and keep. Our concept of what we want for salvation expands while also being grateful for just being alive/resurrected.

 Very much in line with how I see it.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The other one who buried his talent in the earth gets kicked into Outer Darkness

I disagree with this one quite strongly.  I think it is someone who knowing he received his talent from God uses that talent to destroy his own and others’ relationship with God.  Outer Darkness is the ultimate punishment and I don’t see people being punished for not doing good (burying their talent), but for doing evil and Outer Darkness is saved for those who knowingly do evil and never regret it.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Calm

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I would say that any level of valiance demonstrated represents work. It may not be work in the testimony of Jesus, but it may be work in the many "honorable" ways the light of Christ can be applied while still rejecting the fulness of the Gospel.

Some say that doing things for the sake of reward does not warrant a reward. But that doing things because they are right and are done out of sincere desire to do God's will, does warrant a reward.

In Orson Scott Card's script for Living Scriptures' dramatized New Testament, he wrote a conversation between Jesus and Judas in which Jesus asks if it is better that something was done out of love for the Lord and the desire to do right, or for a reward. Judas replies to say that it shouldn't matter. Jesus tells him that it does matter to Him. With the implication that something right done out of a desire to do right and out of love for the Lord is what He is looking for.

And there is no doubt that God knows why were doing what we doing, whatever it is.

Paul writes in Philippians 2:12 -> Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Now, with all this "salvation by grace alone" talk going on, how on earth does Paul get away with contradicting his own words with what he wrote to the Philippians? Work out your own salvation? What's up with that? I'm thinking that in terms of this verse, once we have obtained the Atonement, there is more to obtain, namely Exaltation. 

[Stargazer]

Just now, Calm said:

I disagree with this one quite strongly.  I think it is someone who knowing he received his talent from God uses that talent to destroy his own and others’ relationship with God.  Outer Darkness is the ultimate punishment and I don’t see people being punished for not doing good (burying their talent), but doing evil and Outer Darkness is saved for those who knowingly do evil and never regret it.

I apologize. I was trying to be funny. I see I did not succeed!

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

Some say that doing things for the sake of reward does not warrant a reward. But that doing things because they are right and are done out of sincere desire to do God's will, does warrant a reward.

I don’t see it as a reward, but as preparation to receive, similar to how one has to learn to drive a car before receiving the authority from the government to do so.  It can certainly be looked on as a reward, but I think most people use driving to be more effective in their efforts, not just because they want to drive for fun (I see rewards as ends in and of themselves as opposed to being part of a process).  The blessings God gives us are tied imo to the person we are becoming by being obedient.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I apologize. I was trying to be funny. I see I did not succeed!

Sorry, it went right over my head that it was humor though I thought it odd from you and thought you just weren’t thinking it through, being careless.  You did say it was rubbish, but CV’s valid working theory pushed that out of my mind, I think.  I have heard too many who seem to think some little thing has made them doomed for OD and are in despair or apathy (why bother trying anymore), so I am sensitive about anything that hints that way.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm thinking that in terms of this verse, once we have obtained the Atonement, there is more to obtain, namely Exaltation. 

I see the Atonement as more of a process, we become one with God rather than are one with God…at least at the beginning when we allow it to first work within us.  We accept his gift, the offer to help us change to be free of burdens, to find true belonging, whatever our motivation….and allow Christ to work in us, and thus become willing to turn more and more to God.  The full atonemen is when we become capable to accept all that God is and wants for us, when our will aligns with his.  So I see exaltation as accepting the fullness of the Atonement, the Terrestrial are those who accept it up to a point and then decide to stop and reject any more of it and the Celestial is for those still seeking a better relationship with God and others.  The Telestial is for those who were stuck in hell until they chose to repent and repented to stop their own suffering, not because they wanted others not to suffer even though part of the repentance process is losing the desire to hurt others or not caring that they hurt others (hurting others is sinful, unclean and since the Telestial is a kingdom of God’s glory, no unclean thing can exist within it.

Since someone is likely to change their mind overtime, I see it likely there is progression between kingdoms.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Calm

[manol]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

In short, I see salvation is a three level concept. Resurrection for all; Atonement for the repentant; Exaltation for the valiant in Jesus. It is all Salvation, of course. 

What does "valiant in Jesus", and/or "valiant in the testimony of Jesus", look like?

 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

We are all resurrected by grace, the degrees of glory come by grace, and exaltation comes by grace. The basic level of salvation is resurrection, he kingdoms of glory allow for a higher level of salvation, and exaltation is the highest level of salvation. But they all come by grace.

Our work associated with our resurrection was accomplished in the pre-mortal realm (anyone who comes here is resurrected). D&C 76 and 88 speak to our work associated with our resurrected glory. D&C 132 speaks to our work associated with exaltation. But Christ's grace is required in all these kinds of blessings.

So if I understand you correctly the common denominator is Christ's grace, and then the separation into different kingdoms has to do with differences in works.  If works is what makes the difference between exaltation and any lesser degree of salvation, in practice how does that significantly differ from "salvation by grace, exaltation by works"? 

 

1 hour ago, Calm said:

This has always been something that frustrates me as it depends on context. I have seen salvation used only as meaning exaltation many times, but also meaning simply the fact there is physical resurrection for everyone and various meanings in between many other times...

Most common understanding seems to me to tie baptism and salvation together and sealing and exaltation together for some reason.

If temple sealing is a salvific ordinance, then exaltation can be said to be salvation…but LDS Speak is hardly a language of consistency . 

That Bruce R. McConkie quote caught me by surprise.  Maybe I have been listening through the filter of my incorrect assumptions all these years, but I had made the (perhaps oversimplifying) assumption that "exaltation" means the top level of the Celestial Kingdom, and "salvation" means pretty much everything else.  

 

32 minutes ago, Calm said:

Since someone is likely to change their mind overtime, I see it likely there is progression between kingdoms.

Me too.  Which would make the semantics of which terms have exactly which meanings a lot less crucial. 

Edited August 21, 2024 by manol

[Stargazer]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Since someone is likely to change their mind overtime, I see it likely there is progression between kingdoms.

I have what I think are good reasons to disagree with progression between kingdoms, but I like the way you think.

[Stargazer]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t see it as a reward, but as preparation to receive, similar to how one has to learn to drive a car before receiving the authority from the government to do so.  It can certainly be looked on as a reward, but I think most people use driving to be more effective in their efforts, not just because they want to drive for fun (I see rewards as ends in and of themselves as opposed to being part of a process).  The blessings God gives us are tied imo to the person we are becoming by being obedient.

Yes, precisely.

I am quite frankly frightened by that "reward." How could I be that which God wants to make of me? Going off something you said earlier or in another thread, I trust the Lord, but I cannot truly comprehend what it means ultimately. C. S. Lewis once wrote about it in terms of us wanting it to be this comfortable little mansion, when God intends to make something much greater out of us, adding new floors and wings so that we become a palace that is wholly and unimaginably glorious and wondrous. 

 

[Stargazer]

11 minutes ago, manol said:

What does "valiant in Jesus", and/or "valiant in the testimony of Jesus", look like?

That I haven't quite worked out, yet. I imagine it is closely related to D&C 121:45,46

-> Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Something like that.

[Stargazer]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have heard too many who seem to think some little thing has made them doomed for OD and are in despair or apathy (why bother trying anymore), so I am sensitive about anything that hints that way.

I can understand that. I caught my brother thinking that way once (we were both young and new in the Church), and I quoted Isaiah to him:

Isaiah 1:18 -> Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

[manol]

10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That I haven't quite worked out, yet. I imagine it is closely related to D&C 121:45,46

-> Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

Something like that.

I like that!  I don't understand all of it, but... yeah.   Something like that. 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, manol said:

Thank you @InCognitus for posting this quote!  Evidently I have been MISTAKEN about LDS doctrine on this subject, despite having been active LDS for many years!  (I've been outside the Church for twenty-something years now.)

My understand was indeed that LDS doctrine was along the lines of "saved by grace, exalted by works".  And I have been under the impression that the LDS concept of "salvation" placed it a distant second-best to "exaltation".   

Quoting here from your quote from the article:

I did not know that "salvation is synonymous with exaltation" in LDS doctrine!  Not sure how I missed that point for all these years, as imo it's a really, really big one. 

Has anybody else here been under the impression that "exaltation" is considered to be much better than "salvation", or was it just me? 

Elder Oaks says there are at least 6 different meanings for saved/salvation.

[manol]

45 minutes ago, Rain said:

Elder Oaks says there are at least 6 different meanings for saved/salvation.

The impression I get from Elder Oaks' talk, and from the replies to my post, is that, in the LDS paradigm, only ONE particular and rather narrow meaning of "salvation" is synonymous with "exaltation". 

Well, at least I now understand that SOMETIMES when the word "salvation" is used in an LDS context, it COULD mean "exaltation". 

Edited August 21, 2024 by manol

[CV75]

13 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Some say that doing things for the sake of reward does not warrant a reward. But that doing things because they are right and are done out of sincere desire to do God's will, does warrant a reward.

In Orson Scott Card's script for Living Scriptures' dramatized New Testament, he wrote a conversation between Jesus and Judas in which Jesus asks if it is better that something was done out of love for the Lord and the desire to do right, or for a reward. Judas replies to say that it shouldn't matter. Jesus tells him that it does matter to Him. With the implication that something right done out of a desire to do right and out of love for the Lord is what He is looking for.

And there is no doubt that God knows why were doing what we doing, whatever it is.

Paul writes in Philippians 2:12 -> Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Now, with all this "salvation by grace alone" talk going on, how on earth does Paul get away with contradicting his own words with what he wrote to the Philippians? Work out your own salvation? What's up with that? I'm thinking that in terms of this verse, once we have obtained the Atonement, there is more to obtain, namely Exaltation. 

I think Paul gets away with contradicting his own words when we receive them with grace and a charitable contextualization. In a word, "semantics!

I agree: Judas is resurrected by virtue of Jesus' Atonement, and whatever he did in life that may be argued to be honorable, exaltation is received on terms other than that. Charity is more divine than honor, and perhaps this is what was missing when Lucifer expected God's honor in exchange for doing a so-called "honorable" (as opposed to a "beloved") thing.

[CV75]

13 hours ago, manol said:

So if I understand you correctly the common denominator is Christ's grace, and then the separation into different kingdoms has to do with differences in works.  If works is what makes the difference between exaltation and any lesser degree of salvation, in practice how does that significantly differ from "salvation by grace, exaltation by works"? 

I see the separation into different kingdoms and exaltation as not dependent on our works, but on the grace that enables us to do anything at all. In mortality, this enabling power ranges from the light of Christ to the power, gift, companionship and promise of the Holy Ghost. After that, only God has the power to resurrect us, and so this comes by grace. Only God has the power to judge, or separate us into different kingdoms and exaltation, and so this comes by grace also, even when we “judge ourselves” (which applies only when we do so correctly! ).

Both mortality and the afterlife are meaningless if we can’t do anything, and He invites us to engage in the most meaningful thing we can do: join Him in His work. This includes the commandments and rites for teaching purposes in this life. So, we are saved by grace so that we ultimately find meaningful work in whichever kingdom we are willing to receive. By grace we find a similitude of such in this life.

While the works within different afterlife kingdoms differ, mortal works to not cause these differences. They may be associated with them, but the differences are caused by grace, God’s work. This is why the connection between our mortal works and our afterlife works comes down to the grace displayed in God knowing our hearts. This is also why people who never hear the restored gospel in this life but live (work) by the light of Christ can still be be exalted by getting the fuller light and power in the spirit world after they die.

[The Nehor]

On 8/20/2024 at 12:37 AM, Calm said:

We do not let boys and girls have overnight activities together (they have to go to separate sleeping quarters, correct?). I do not see this as inherently increasing fears the presence of boys is a danger to others or the reverse, so why would it increase fear of transitioned individuals?

However, if the fear is already present, I can see separation of biological sexes and other restrictions as justifying these fears, but a lot of wise rules can be used to justify unnecessary fears and we don’t skip the rules just for that reason.  
 

Whether these rules are wise or not can be debated, of course.

I guess the real fear is pregnancy.

All the queer experimentation is just accepted and tolerated for some reason.

On 8/20/2024 at 9:50 AM, MustardSeed said:

I suppose if I were in charge of the youth, I would not allow any sleepovers whatsoever in the church. I don’t see any need for it anyway.

in my experience, we dealt far more with girls being sexual with each other then we ever did with any transgender issues.

For the record, it’s mostly the adults who are concerned about transgender stuff. Most kids have adjusted along ago.

It is this. The number of queer LDS (ex or still active) who have shared experiences they had at youth camps boggles the mind. Transgender teens, not so much. They are probably the group least likely to get up to shenanigans as they just try to ‘pass’. Adults meanwhile have swallowed the agenda of the anti-transgender activists and rate them as a huge threat. The philosophies of men mixed with a lack of any scripture on the subject.

[Calm]

9 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think Paul gets away with contradicting his own words when we receive them with grace and a charitable contextualization. In a word, "semantics!

I agree: Judas is resurrected by virtue of Jesus' Atonement, and whatever he did in life that may be argued to be honorable, exaltation is received on terms other than that. Charity is more divine than honor, and perhaps this is what was missing when Lucifer expected God's honor in exchange for doing a so-called "honorable" (as opposed to a "beloved") thing.

I love this 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

All the queer experimentation is just accepted and tolerated for some reason.

Don’t you know?  It doesn’t really exist!  No one really wants to do that stuff!  😛 

Back to serious…in my youth same sex attraction/experimentation was generally seen as rare (for the above reason, it was obviously gross), sleepovers were common and nobody was talking about even abuse occurring then, but specially not anything between kids.  We also always walked home on our own, even as little kids.  It was either the bus or walking, no long line of cars at elementary school.***  Then for whatever reason it became a national discussion…just as I had my first kid, lol.  Didn’t help my own boss’ little girl got kidnapped for 6 weeks before being rescued and there were three attempts at the mall near BYU that year.  They started putting kids’ faces on milk cartons in 1984, they were doing major campaigns to get your kid hand and foot printed and pictures taken in case they were kidnapped.

***I would be really interested to find out if this was typical or if I was overly protected in my teens due to my mother being rather naive in a lot of ways and both parents very uncomfortable to talk to us kids about any sexual concerns and by my Mormon label (though as far as I could tell that made young adults more open with me as they seemed to enjoy trying to shock me).

Also I don’t know if it was just who I hung out with, but I started hearing of boys molested at Scout Camp and then abuse occurring at sleepovers as well (my ex brother in law described to my sister his first same sex encounter as being molested at Boy Scouts, perhaps later he would have described it as experimenting, I don’t know; found out my husband’s uncle that everyone thought was wonderful was a child molestor around then too).

I remember being very surprised when my other brother in law who was a therapist said there would be no sleepovers, way too many of his clients had their first encounters with sex there and they presented it as abuse (older brother and his friends usually if not a parent).  That was late 80s, early 90s.  Mid/late 90s it was a lot more common not to have sleepovers and it seems it was standard by the time we were back in Utah in early 00s.

But I have never been in Young Women’s leadership and  my husband was never in Young Men’s, so I haven’t been party to how it gets discussed among leadership at church.  I was Akela/Cub Scout mom but got no training from the Church nor any meetings.  I remember getting abuse training at a Canada Scouts class, but nothing was said to me from the Church except that we were supposed to have two people for any overnight camp. This was ignored back in 1994 for one of my son’s Scout camp as no big deal (I protested, but leaders and bishop patted me on the head in essence and said ‘it will be fine’)

I would be interested to know if leadership in the Church actually discusses details or just glosses it over like when I was involved.

Edited August 22, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Adults meanwhile have swallowed the agenda of the anti-transgender activists and rate them as a huge threat.

It reminds me of the aging gay men are out to seduce cute teen boys into the homosexual life talk that was typical when I was a kid.  I am trying to remember when the movies/tv came out that had an older man taking a younger one under his wing only to have his heartbroken when the young man went off with someone his own age, usually female.  They were originally mocked it seems to me and then the tone changed to pity, it was obvious though anyone gay would end up alone in their old age.  I wasn’t seeing R rated movies unless edited for TV, so perhaps there were more realistic ones at that time as well. 

Edited August 22, 2024 by Calm

[telnetd]

On 8/19/2024 at 5:21 PM, CV75 said:

Please read the entire article. Your above post tends to leave a false impression about our doctrine.

"...This is exaltation by works. Thus, according to this explanation, we are saved by grace and exalted by works.

"This is an appealing explanation because it seems to provide a logical argument that fits the statements of Paul neatly into it. However, there is a doctrinal error involved here..." I invite you to explore the error as explained in the article so that you can understand and represent our doctrine better.

Those who don't return to God's presence suffer spiritual death.

[telnetd]

On 8/20/2024 at 9:46 AM, CV75 said:

Wow. @telnetd, why do you do this?

What was taken out of context?

[telnetd]

On 8/20/2024 at 3:48 PM, InCognitus said:

@telnetd, I really would like to see an answer to this question. 

Please rephrase.  

"But, if we wish to overcome spiritual death and enter back into God's presence, 
we must be obedient to laws and principles. This is exaltation by works. Thus, 
according to this explanation, we are saved by grace and exalted by works".

What is taken out of context?