Recent updates to General Handbook

[telnetd]

On 9/18/2024 at 5:20 PM, webbles said:

That we believe God wants us to be a god?  Or that eternal life is becoming a god?

I guess I'd recommend D&C 76: 50-70 and Moses 1:39.  But I'm not exactly sure what you are asking for.

My question deals with how the church defines eternal life; either becoming a God
or living life eternally as a God.

D&C 76 mentions eternal life in contrast with eternal punishment.

Moses 1:39 mentions immortality and eternal life but it doesn't indicate eternal 
life is reaching Godhood.

[telnetd]

On 9/18/2024 at 3:31 PM, bluebell said:

Where does it say that the book of Mormon is said to contain all the church teaching so far?  I’ve never heard that before.

It doesn't.

On 9/18/2024 at 3:31 PM, bluebell said:

The “Fullness of the gospel” just means a more comprehensive understanding of the atonement.  

Where is that "more" comprehensive understanding found in the Book of Mormon?  

[JAHS]

16 minutes ago, telnetd said:

On 9/18/2024 at 5:28 PM, JAHS said:

Apparently they can be according to scripture and latter-day revelation from our prophets.

"Man is a god in embryo and has in him the seeds of godhood, and he can, if he will, rise to great heights.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball (1982), 28)

 

Is that scripture?

It comes from a prophet of God so I consider it scripture. Others, including me, have provided scriptures that would support this statement.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

On 9/19/2024 at 11:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Where does scripture say that?

There is no scripture that says eternal life is becoming a God or living life as
a God.  I was referring to "True to the Faith".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/eternal-life?lang=eng

The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality 
and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected 
being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal 
life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial 
kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4).

I asked, where does scripture say "eternal life is not becoming a God" as you claimed.  Where does scripture say that?

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

On 9/19/2024 at 11:47 AM, InCognitus said:

Since God is eternal, what does "before" or "after" mean to an eternal God?  What is God talking about when he says "before me" or "after me"?

I believe he is using those terms, "before" and "after", for our benefit so that
we can understand his nature.

For our benefit?  No.  "Before" and "after" is meaningless to an eternal God, he is eternal so there is no such thing as "before" or "after" him.  So how exactly does that help us understand his nature except make it more confusing?  God doesn't speak gibberish to confuse us more. 

The "before" and "after" means something in relation to the people God is talking to in the context of those verses.  It is key to understanding what God is saying there.  Context is extremely important.  See my post to you (with you posting as theplains) on 09/16/2019 and 09/21/2019.   And also on 06/04/2022 (with you posting as marineland).   

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

What do you mean when you say God is eternal?  Is that your belief in a being who 
has always been God or a being who has always been an eternal intelligence who then 
progressed into becoming a God?

You already know what I mean.  We've discussed this over and over with you posting as theplains. 

As for how God is eternal, see my post on 01/05/2024, as well as our discussion on what the Bible means by "from everlasting to everlasting" in these posts: here 07/09/2022, here 07/25/2022, here 08/10/2022, here 10/30/2022, here 11/12/2022, here 11/16/2022, here 11/21/2022, here 11/27/2022, here 12/24/2022), and here 07/10/2023.  You simply interpret the Bible differently than how that phrase was understood in Bible times.

Edited September 20, 2024 by InCognitus

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, telnetd said:

Why should a person fear and tremble for not being exalted?

I believe that is what I asked you:

Quote

But in Philippians 2:12, why does Paul write: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?

Care to respond to that?

[telnetd]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:20 PM, JAHS said:

It comes from a prophet of God so I consider it scripture. Others, including me, have provided scriptures that would support this statement.

Will those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms still have in them the seeds of
godhood even though they won't rise to great heights like their brethren supposedly
will?

[telnetd]

On 9/20/2024 at 3:59 PM, InCognitus said:

I asked, where does scripture say "eternal life is not becoming a God" as you claimed.  Where does scripture say that?

If want to make reverse arguments like that, why not ask me where does it say God's body is not green.

 

On 9/20/2024 at 3:59 PM, InCognitus said:

You already know what I mean.  We've discussed this over and over with you posting as theplains. 

Maybe if you clearly explain if you believe what Joseph Smith taught about God, then
neither theplains or I would keep asking you about this.  If you don't agree with
church teachings about Christ either (first spirit born to heavenly parents who
became a God in his pre-mortal life), then I'm not sure why you are not comfortable
in saying so.  At least call the church teachings true, false, or just speculations
that should not be taught in seminary.  It's not as if you're a bishop (?) under threat
of excommunication...

[telnetd]

On 9/21/2024 at 6:12 AM, Stargazer said:

I believe that is what I asked you:

But in Philippians 2:12, why does Paul write: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?

Care to respond to that?

This has nothing to do with exaltation unless you believe people have to fear not being
exalted.

The concept of "fear and trembling" addresses worshipful respect for God. This echoes 
back to the context of every knee bowing before the Lord mentioned in verse 11.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

On 9/20/2024 at 12:20 PM, JAHS said:

It comes from a prophet of God so I consider it scripture. Others, including me, have provided scriptures that would support this statement.

Will those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms still have in them the seeds of
godhood even though they won't rise to great heights like their brethren supposedly
will?

Not sure what you mean by "seeds of godhood" but I don't think so. As far as we know there is no movement between kingdoms. Once a person is resurrected he is resurrected with a body that is fit for the specific kingdom he is assigned to. It is the kingdom where he will be the most happy and fit in the best. So those "seeds of godhood"  as you call, them probably won't be there.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

If want to make reverse arguments like that, why not ask me where does it say God's body is not green.

You are the one that made the claim here:

On 9/15/2024 at 8:09 AM, telnetd said:

But eternal life is not becoming a God.

So I asked you, "Where does scripture say that?"  It's not a reverse argument, I'm asking you to support your claim.

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Maybe if you clearly explain if you believe what Joseph Smith taught about God, then
neither theplains or I would keep asking you about this.

I have explained this to you over and over, and even when you are using the telnetd name, as in this post on April 10, 2022.

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

This has nothing to do with exaltation unless you believe people have to fear not being
exalted.

Wouldn't you worry about it, or for that matter, worry about salvation not being available to you? Of course, you're saved already, right, but do you believe you can lose your salvation through evil behavior, or not? In other words, do you hold with the idea of "Once saved, always saved"?

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

The concept of "fear and trembling" addresses worshipful respect for God. This echoes 
back to the context of every knee bowing before the Lord mentioned in verse 11.

Of course it addresses worshipful respect for God. That goes without saying. But "working out your own salvation" does seem to contradict the notion that one's salvation rests entirely upon Jesus Christ without any effort on our part. 

Even the most dogmatic "faith only" believer has to actually have faith and take the step of accepting Christ. Having faith and accepting Christ are both acts, or works, without which salvation is impossible.

And then there's the Apostle Peter in Acts telling the new believers at Pentecost that they have to repent and be baptized. But after all that is done, why does one still need to work out one's salvation, according to Paul? Presumably he was talking to people who were already Christians.

[telnetd]

On 9/24/2024 at 4:48 PM, JAHS said:

Not sure what you mean by "seeds of godhood" but I don't think so. As far as we know there is no movement between kingdoms. Once a person is resurrected he is resurrected with a body that is fit for the specific kingdom he is assigned to. It is the kingdom where he will be the most happy and fit in the best. So those "seeds of godhood"  as you call, them probably won't be there.

Thanks. Your last statement answered it.

[telnetd]

On 9/24/2024 at 8:06 PM, Stargazer said:

Wouldn't you worry about it, or for that matter, worry about salvation not being available to you? Of course, you're saved already, right, but do you believe you can lose your salvation through evil behavior, or not? In other words, do you hold with the idea of "Once saved, always saved"?

If salvation means exaltation (after following all of LDS ordinances), then yes, I would fear
and tremble.

No. I don't believe once saved means always saved.  I recall hearing about a Christian evangelist
on par with Billy Graham. I forget his name; maybe Charles Templeton.  He turned his back on
Christ later in life and became an atheist.  I wouldn't consider him saved.  
 

On 9/24/2024 at 8:06 PM, Stargazer said:

Of course it addresses worshipful respect for God. That goes without saying. But "working out your own salvation" does seem to contradict the notion that one's salvation rests entirely upon Jesus Christ without any effort on our part. 

Even the most dogmatic "faith only" believer has to actually have faith and take the step of accepting Christ. Having faith and accepting Christ are both acts, or works, without which salvation is impossible.

And then there's the Apostle Peter in Acts telling the new believers at Pentecost that they have to repent and be baptized. But after all that is done, why does one still need to work out one's salvation, according to Paul? Presumably he was talking to people who were already Christians.

https://www.gotquestions.org/fear-and-trembling.html has some good commentary on this.

In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes, "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always 
obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work 
out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will 
and to act according to his purpose."

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means 
that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear 
and trembling? Paul can hardly be encouraging believers to live in a continuous 
condition of nervousness and anxiety. That would contradict his many other 
exhortations to peace of mind, courage, and confidence in the God who authors our 
salvation. The Greek word translated "fear" in this context can equally mean 
"reverence" or "respect." Paul uses the same phrase in (2 Corinthians 7:15) where 
he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the Corinthians’ reception of him "with 
fear and trembling," that is, with great humility and respect for his position as 
a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul himself came to the Corinthian 
church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" (1 Corinthians 2:3), mindful 
of the great and awesome nature of the work in which he was engaged.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is 
twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to 
bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing 
obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the 
next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as "straining" and "pressing on" 
toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The "trembling" he 
experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy 
fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty 
and holiness. "Trembling" can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is 
a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. 
Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our "reasonable 
service" (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: 
"Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling." We work out our salvation by 
going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our 
hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of 
reverence and awe.

[telnetd]

On 9/24/2024 at 5:19 PM, InCognitus said:

So I asked you, "Where does scripture say that?"  It's not a reverse argument, I'm asking you to support your claim.

Scripture does not say that.  The LDS Church's True to the Faith does define eternal life as
exaltation.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/eternal-life?lang=eng

Eternal life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the 
celestial kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families 
(see D&C 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement 
of Jesus Christ. However, it requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of 
the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3).

Remember that as you give your greatest effort and repent of your sins, the Atonement 
of Jesus Christ will compensate for your weakness and for the inequities, injuries, 
and pains you experience in this life: “We know that it is by grace that we are saved, 
after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23).
 

On 9/24/2024 at 5:19 PM, InCognitus said:

I have explained this to you over and over, and even when you are using the telnetd name, as in this post on April 10, 2022.

Thanks. This is what I saw in your response.

Quote

How he came to be "God" is relative, in my opinion, and has to do with his relationship to us.  At
some point in time (if time exists to God), he became the Father of spirits and created our universe
and provided a way for us receive some of the same blessings and opportunities that he enjoys. 
That is what I believe Joseph Smith meant when he said that God "came to be God" (in my opinion).
It is our relationship to him, he is our God.

Doesn't make sense when you read Doctrine and Covenants 132, where some Latter-day 
Saints are said to become gods; even before having spirit children or creating their 
own universe (s).

[InCognitus]

13 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Scripture does not say that.  The LDS Church's True to the Faith does define eternal life as
exaltation.

Yes, as did the Ensign article that you quoted out of context.  

15 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Doesn't make sense when you read Doctrine and Covenants 132, where some Latter-day 
Saints are said to become gods; even before having spirit children or creating their 
own universe (s).

Context always makes the difference.  In Joseph Smith's statement (which was what my comments were based upon) he was explaining how God came to be our God.  But in Doctrine and Covenants 132, God is explaining how those who follow him can become like him.  So it makes total sense in context.

[telnetd]

On 9/27/2024 at 1:12 PM, InCognitus said:

Context always makes the difference.  In Joseph Smith's statement (which was what my comments were based upon) he was explaining how God came to be our God.  But in Doctrine and Covenants 132, God is explaining how those who follow him can become like him.  So it makes total sense in context.

How did that someone become God so he could then become our God?

[Calm]

1 minute ago, telnetd said:

How did that someone become God so he could then become our God?

Why don’t you ask him?  Anything else is speculation, imo.

We are assured he is our God.  We are assured we can become like him.  We do not required at this time to know all things about God in order to follow him.

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

How did that someone become God so he could then become our God?

I agree with Calm.  Anything I say would be pure speculation.  But some possibilities might include nobody becoming a God so that he could then become our God (since he is the "Eternal God of all other gods").

Edited October 1, 2024 by InCognitus

[Calm]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

I agree with Calm.  Anything I say would be pure speculation.  But some possibilities might include nobody becoming a God so that he could them become our God (since he is the "Eternal God of all other gods").

Yes, he has always been God whatever that means in my view.  

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, he has always been God whatever that means in my view.  

Yes, I believe that fits best with how Joseph Smith explained it along with scripture (Doctrine and Covenants and Book of Abraham).