The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[TheTanakas]

On 12/10/2022 at 10:04 AM, Tacenda said:

And it's sad the Mother in Heaven isn't spoken of much, it's like the church is separating from the belief publicly, to fit in with mainstream Christianity.

Maybe publicly a little but it remains a doctrine.

[TheTanakas]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:09 AM, teddyaware said:

The Lectures on Faith testify that the Father and the Son are one because they both posses, to eternal fulness, the same perfect omniscient Mind

What about the Holy Spirit?  Does he lack this because he lacks a physical body?

Edited December 17, 2022 by TheTanakas

[Pyreaux]

Biblical notions of "oneness" is not as some think as referring to their physical being as a literal conjoined state but rather a mindset that involves a lack of distinction. We are to be one on earth exactly as Jesus and the Father are one, one will, heart and mind. Agree in one accord, do unto others as you would have done to yourself, etc.

[TheTanakas]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:09 AM, teddyaware said:

In fact, Doctrine and Covenants 132 testifies that by virtue of becoming omniscient and omnipotent Kings and Queens of heaven the exalted are proclaimed to be divine beings who had no beginning and will have no end because the uncreated Spirit of Truth, which is bestowed upon them in an eternal fulness, had no beginning and will have no end.

I would clarify a bit. They had no beginning as eternal intelligences but they have a beginning as omniscient and
omnipotent Kings and Queens.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I would clarify a bit. They had no beginning as eternal intelligences but they have a beginning as omniscient and
omnipotent Kings and Queens.

You missed my point. Because the exalted are endowed with an eternal fulness of the uncreated Spirit of Truth, the exact same uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and light with which Christ is endowed, the exalted are able, in the first person, to speak as beings who had no beginning and will have no end because the Spirit of divine intelligence with which they are perfectly one had no beginning and will have no end. Doctrine and Covenants 93 explains this process of theosis beautifully.

16 And I, John, bear record that he (Christ) received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

20 For if you keep my commandments, you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth  and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

 

[mfbukowski]

Section 93 also speaks in terms about truth existing in different contexts, which I see in terms of Pragmatism, thereby making truth contextual.  Which paradigm truth demonstrates varies according to which context is called for; moral truths for example are not demonstrated by the paradigms which are useful in nuclear physics.

Different truths may even be manifested by the times and seasons and knowledge of the culture through history, as the law of Moses differs from the laws Christ puts forward:

"  "24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come; ""

We don't teach children principles about sexual morality, for example.

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven"

Edited December 21, 2022 by mfbukowski

[TheTanakas]

On 12/20/2022 at 8:05 PM, teddyaware said:

the exalted are able, in the first person, to speak as beings who had no beginning and will have no end

All exalted and non-exalted beings can speak of themselves as having no beginning and having
no end.  My main point was that our heavenly parents did have a beginning in their newly acquired
titles of omnipotent God and Goddess when they received a fullness of joy from their parents. The
husband and wife became the exalted husband and exalted wife.

Edited December 23, 2022 by TheTanakas

[InCognitus]

On 12/23/2022 at 8:47 AM, TheTanakas said:

All exalted and non-exalted beings can speak of themselves as having no beginning and having
no end.  My main point was that our heavenly parents did have a beginning in their newly acquired
titles of omnipotent God and Goddess when they received a fullness of joy from their parents. The
husband and wife became the exalted husband and exalted wife.

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."  (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20)  

[teddyaware]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:47 AM, TheTanakas said:

All exalted and non-exalted beings can speak of themselves as having no beginning and having
no end.  My main point was that our heavenly parents did have a beginning in their newly acquired
titles of omnipotent God and Goddess when they received a fullness of joy from their parents. The
husband and wife became the exalted husband and exalted wife.

I should have been more clear. What I should have said is that the exalted are able to speak of themselves as being the God who is from everlasting to everlasting because the fulness of the uncreated Spirit of Truth that now animates and empowers them had no beginning and will have no end. In other words the divine mind of God had no beginning and will have no end, and those who are possessed of its fulness are entitled to speak in the first person as the eternal God who is without beginning of days and end of years. The Melchizedek Priesthood is also without beginning of days and end of years, and those who possess the Melchizedek Priesthood in fulness can also say that their power and authority are without beginning. 

Edited December 25, 2022 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, InCognitus said:

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."  (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20)  

It’s important to note that the etymology of the word ‘continue’ speaks of becoming one with someone or something. In the above verse, I believe the prophet is using the word ‘continue’ in this original sense of the word, conveying the idea of a timeless and never ending patriarchal and matriarchal procession of the Gods.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. (Hebrews 7)

Edited December 25, 2022 by teddyaware

[Pyreaux]

Melchizedek though an immortal spirit born of God the Father, but in his flesh, he was born a mortal human, of human parents, and when he became the priest-king of Salem he became adopted as a son of the Lord God, leaving his former categories behind, having a new birth without human parents, and deemed an immortal god-kin. His status as an "eternal" soul, a being of body and spirit, was then obtained, or reobtained. Though Melchizedek also died just as he was born, though still abides as a priest in heaven today. Relative terminology here, I don't deal much in metaphysics to say the part of his nature that is "everlasting" when that term is relative also. Saying he is joined as an "eternal" link in a chain tells me little about the chain's length, though it could be as you say that it somehow goes back infinitely.

[teddyaware]

4 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Melchizedek though an immortal spirit born of God the Father, but in his flesh, he was born a mortal human, of human parents, and when he became the priest-king of Salem he became adopted as a son of the Lord God, leaving his former categories behind, having a new birth without human parents, and deemed an immortal god-kin. His status as an "eternal" soul, a being of body and spirit, was then obtained, or reobtained. Though Melchizedek also died just as he was born, though still abides as a priest in heaven today. Relative terminology here, I don't deal much in metaphysics to say the part of his nature that is "everlasting" when that term is relative also. Saying he is joined as an "eternal" link in a chain tells me little about the chain's length, though it could be as you say that it somehow goes back infinitely.

Paul’s identification of Melchizedek as an eternal king, in the likeness of the infinite and eternal Son of God, is to hold him up as a prototype of all valiant Melchizedek Priesthood holders rather than as someone whose heavenly kingship is singular and unique among the sons of men. As evidence of this, I would draw your attention to the Book of Revelation where in at least five places John depicts the faithful disciples of Christ as being heavenly Kings and Priests. As an example, I cite the following.

Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.(Revelation 1)

In light of the above, it’s obvious that Christ and Melchizedek aren’t the only kings and priests who will be crowned and enthroned in heaven from among the sons of men. But this isn’t to suggest that you are saying otherwise.

Edited December 25, 2022 by teddyaware

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Relative terminology here, I don't deal much in metaphysics to say the part of his nature that is "everlasting" when that term is relative also. Saying he is joined as an "eternal" link in a chain tells me little about the chain's length, though it could be as you say that it somehow goes back infinitely.

And this applies to every sentence uttered by a body-bound being, including science, everything.

This is your theory, and I believe we all have our own

It's impossible to get it right with a human brain. We only get what seems best for us at the time. The rest comes from God until your brain intrudes and put it into human, confounded, language 

[mfbukowski]

On 12/24/2022 at 7:15 PM, teddyaware said:

I should have been more clear. What I should have said is that the exalted are able to speak of themselves as being the God who is from everlasting to everlasting because the fulness of the uncreated Spirit of Truth that now animates and empowers them had no beginning and will have no end. In other words the divine mind of God had no beginning and will have no end, and those who are possessed of its fulness are entitled to speak in the first person as the eternal God who is without beginning of days and end of years. The Melchizedek Priesthood is also without beginning of days and end of years, and those who possess the Melchizedek Priesthood in fulness can also say that their power and authority are without beginning. 

Yes, and also Divine Investiture becomes relevant then

[TheTanakas]

On 12/24/2022 at 2:37 PM, InCognitus said:

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them."  (Doctrine and Covenants 132:20) 

Correct.  The future tense of the phrase reveals it -  They shall be.  This implies their beginning phase as gods.

[TheTanakas]

On 12/24/2022 at 10:15 PM, teddyaware said:

I should have been more clear. What I should have said is that the exalted are able to speak of themselves as being the God who is from everlasting to everlasting because the fulness of the uncreated Spirit of Truth that now animates and empowers them had no beginning and will have no end.

Likewise, the unexalted are able to speak of themselves as being from everlasting to everlasting even if
they lack a fulness.

[InCognitus]

40 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

Correct.  The future tense of the phrase reveals it -  They shall be.  This implies their beginning phase as gods.

 Although not used in a future tense, "everlasting to everlasting" has the same meaning in application to God in the Bible.

[TheTanakas]

16 hours ago, InCognitus said:

 Although not used in a future tense, "everlasting to everlasting" has the same meaning in application to God in the Bible.

Here's an analogy that I use to explain everlasting to everlasting to my non-LDS friends
who ask me when they come across our teaching of our Heavenly Father becoming god.

Suppose you have someone called John.  John has always existed as an eternal
intelligence.  But in his mind, John has always worked at Walmart (some unknown
location) as a shipper.  He works every day performing his duties; in some form of 
eternal progression.  One day, he is somehow fashioned into a spirit child of his 
heavenly parents and then moves to the Celestial Home Office of Walmart (location 
still unknown).  He works there too as a shipper but his parents know he cannot 
advance in his shipping position at Walmart until he visits a satellite site (Earth) 
were he can gain more experience.  Working at this satellite site is difficult but he 
finds joy in his life and marries a lovely lady for time and eternity in a temple 
provided for all worthy Walmart employees. They grow old together, die, and are then 
resurrected.

Because of all their good works, they are rewarded with a return back to the Celestial 
Home Office of Walmart.  Prior to his resurrection, John has always been working as a
shipper at all the Walmart locations.  But low and behold, John has now been promoted 
to CEO at the Celestial Home Office of Walmart.  To his joy, his wife has also been 
promoted to CEO at the same time.

So, while John has always been alive and will continue to live (intelligent from everlasting
to everlasting), he had a ending as a shipper and a beginning as a CEO - he was not "CEO 
from everlasting to everlasting".

[Leaf474]

Hi! Non-mormon forum newbie here, hoping this is a reasonable place to ask this.

 

So I'm chatting with some people on YouTube in the comments section, and this question has come up 🙂

Can a person's sins be forgiven just by believing in Jesus? Or do they need to be baptized by someone with priesthood authority? One Latter-day Saint who seems to be highly educated said that baptism wasn't required.

 

But then I found this talk from Elder Bednar, in which it sounds to me like he's saying that baptism is the first step to forgiveness.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/04/always-retain-a-remission-of-your-sins?lang=eng

 

Two quotes that stood out to me:

 

In the process of coming unto the Savior and spiritual rebirth, baptism provides a necessary initial cleansing of our soul from sin.

 

And

 

Nephi declared, “For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.”

 

So what's going on? Is remission/cleansing the same as forgiveness or different? Are Bednar / Nephi just giving the usual progress of things, not the necessary progress of things?

 

Looking forward to hearing from y'all 🙂

[Pyreaux]

37 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Hi! Non-mormon forum newbie here, hoping this is a reasonable place to ask this.

So I'm chatting with some people on YouTube in the comments section, and this question has come up 🙂

Can a person's sins be forgiven just by believing in Jesus? Or do they need to be baptized by someone with priesthood authority? One Latter-day Saint who seems to be highly educated said that baptism wasn't required.

But then I found this talk from Elder Bednar, in which it sounds to me like he's saying that baptism is the first step to forgiveness.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/04/always-retain-a-remission-of-your-sins?lang=eng

Two quotes that stood out to me

In the process of coming unto the Savior and spiritual rebirth, baptism provides a necessary initial cleansing of our soul from sin.

And

Nephi declared, “For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

So what's going on? Is remission/cleansing the same as forgiveness or different? Are Bednar / Nephi just giving the usual progress of things, not the necessary progress of things?

Looking forward to hearing from y'all 🙂

Faith alone in the Atonement of Christ can justify. Justification is having the punishment of your sins waived, is merited on the basis of faith alone. For we cannot perform any works that will undo justice's demand for the sin we should be punished for. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8) is talking about justification. This is made plain by Paul's statement concerning works performed under the Law of Moses: "a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ...for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16).

There is Sanctification, where purification rites make believers in Christ holy by works of repentance. Paul ties sanctification and being saved together when he says, "we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thes.2:13), and why James says "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). Those who are "called to be saints" are "them that are sanctified" (1Cor 1:2). The Sanctification process are ordinances like baptism which removes/remits sin (Mark 1:4; Acts 2:38) and receiving the Holy Ghost (John 1:33), the baptism of fire (Matt. 3:11) and being born again (John 3:3-5). Acts of repentance purges us our sins and start anew.

Then there are things beyond these first principles.

Hebrews 5

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

[Leaf474]

25 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Faith alone in the Atonement of Christ can justify. Justification is having the punishment of your sins waived, is merited on the basis of faith alone. For we cannot perform any works that will undo justice's demand for the sin we should be punished for. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and not of yourselves: it is a gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph 2:8) is talking about justification. This is made plain by Paul's statement concerning works performed under the Law of Moses: "a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ...for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified" (Gal. 2:16).

There is Sanctification, where purification rites make believers in Christ holy by works of repentance. Paul ties sanctification and being saved together when he says, "we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thes.2:13), and why James says "faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). Those who are "called to be saints" are "them that are sanctified" (1Cor 1:2). The Sanctification process are ordinances like baptism which removes/remits sin (Mark 1:4; Acts 2:38) and receiving the Holy Ghost (John 1:33), the baptism of fire (Matt. 3:11) and being born again (John 3:3-5). Acts of repentance purges us our sins and start anew.

Then there are things beyond these first principles.

Hebrews 5

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Hebrews 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Thanks! When Elder Bednar says, "...baptism provides a necessary initial cleansing of our soul from sin", is that something different from forgiveness?

[Pyreaux]

33 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks! When Elder Bednar says, "...baptism provides a necessary initial cleansing of our soul from sin", is that something different from forgiveness?

We can appropriately speak of one who is justified by faith as forgiven, pardoned, without sin, or guiltless. The Baptism for the remission of sins accomplishes even more, to become clean, pure, and holy. If justification from faith removes the punishment for past sin, then sanctification removes the stain or effects of sin.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Pyreaux

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Can a person's sins be forgiven just by believing in Jesus?

For us, it's a little more complicated than a yes or no answer.

Be ready for some discussion.

We have 3 heavens, with different levels of "salvation" fo each, and God is a loving Father. You can expect some discussion here which may SOUND inconsistent, but don't give up.

God can forgive whoever He wants; he goes by your heart and intentions, yet there are general guidelines.

We are also very close to being Universalists, meaning that virtually everyone will be "saved" in one sense or another.

Hang in there- it is a fabulous set of beliefs but not that easy to put simply.

Yes you can be saved - "go to heaven"- without even hearing about Jesus much less baptism.

You can accept him after death as well, and be baptized by proxy after your death, so that complicates your apparently simple question! Hang on, learning this stuff will enrichen your life!!

 

[Navidad]

There is a whole lot of interesting hermeneutics going on in this thread!

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

We can appropriately speak of one who is justified by faith as forgiven, pardoned, without sin, or guiltless. The Baptism for the remission of sins accomplishes even more, to become clean, pure, and holy. If justification from faith removes the punishment for past sin, then sanctification removes the stain or effects of sin.

Thanks again ❤️

 

So a person whose sins are forgiven is not yet clean?

 

Not trying to argue here, just trying to understand the LDS position.

 

Is it fair to say that a person cannot be cleansed from their sins until they are baptized by someone holding priesthood authority?