The uniqueness of the LDS Church

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

There is a whole lot of interesting hermeneutics going on in this thread!

Revenge for the pretzel twister  man. 🧐😜

Edited April 15, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks again ❤️

 

So a person whose sins are forgiven is not yet clean?

 

Not trying to argue here, just trying to understand the LDS position.

 

Is it fair to say that a person cannot be cleansed from their sins until they are baptized by someone holding priesthood authority?

I recommend you study 2 Nephi chapter 31 in it’s entirety to understand the LDS doctrine. Here is pertinent selection…

“17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.”

Moroni 6 also helps…

“1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.
5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.
6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.
7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.
8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.
9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.”

Edited April 15, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[Leaf474]

19 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

For us, it's a little more complicated than a yes or no answer.

Be ready for some discussion.

We have 3 heavens, with different levels of "salvation" fo each, and God is a loving Father. You can expect some discussion here which may SOUND inconsistent, but don't give up.

God can forgive whoever He wants; he goes by your heart and intentions, yet there are general guidelines.

We are also very close to being Universalists, meaning that virtually everyone will be "saved" in one sense or another.

Hang in there- it is a fabulous set of beliefs but not that easy to put simply.

Yes you can be saved - "go to heaven"- without even hearing about Jesus much less baptism.

You can accept him after death as well, and be baptized by proxy after your death, so that complicates your apparently simple question! Hang on, learning this stuff will enrichen your life!!

 

Thanks for the input ❤️ If you don't mind my asking a follow-up question,

 

I gather from the Elder Bednar talk, especially the Nephi quote, that the general progression is baptism in water, then remission of sins, and then baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 

Am I on track so far?

[Leaf474]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I recommend you study 2 Nephi chapter 31 in it’s entirety to understand the LDS doctrine. Here is pertinent selection…

“17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.”

Moroni 6 also helps…

“1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it.
2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins.
3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end.
4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.
5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.
6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.
7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ.
8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven.
9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.”

Thank you for the input, as well ❤️ And if you like, I invite you to respond to my post immediately above this one 🙂

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thank you for the input, as well ❤️ And if you like, I invite you to respond to my post immediately above this one 🙂 I gather from the Elder Bednar talk, especially the Nephi quote, that the general progression is baptism in water, then remission of sins, and then baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

Also, from Elder Bednar's talk...

Quote

As members of the Lord’s restored Church, we are blessed both by our initial cleansing from sin associated with baptism and by the potential for an ongoing cleansing from sin made possible through the companionship and power of the Holy Ghost—even the third member of the Godhead.

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the input ❤️ If you don't mind my asking a follow-up question,

 

I gather from the Elder Bednar talk, especially the Nephi quote, that the general progression is baptism in water, then remission of sins, and then baptism in the Holy Ghost.

 

Am I on track so far?

If you want answers to questions, I would suggest you research church sites befor you start questioning here.

This link takes you directly for one in training about how to do Baptismal interviews.

12: How Do I Prepare People for Baptism and Confirmation?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng

Young missionaries usually do convert interviews, which bugs me, but they require training.  Read this and you too can do your own interview.  ( Not really!! 😉)

But really I would you get the direct church answers first.  I am not sure why you would take a different route!!  We who are posting here are amateurs- go to the leaders first makes the most sense to me!

Quote:

"Through this interview, baptismal candidates fulfill the scriptural requirement that they witness before an authorized representative of the Church that they have “truly repented of all their sins” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:37)."

 

It appears to begin with repentance, which makes sense to me.

You want to be free of sin? Stop sinning!

Or at least be working on it, NO ONE is perfect except Jesus of course.  Like any thing in life, it is step by step! 

It takes ACTION and practice to repent; to repent means to "re-think" if you look at the etymology of the French word from which it came.

Edited April 16, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Leaf474]

21 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

Also, from Elder Bednar's talk...

 

That's how I read it, too 🙂 One more question, if you're interested:

 

In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul writes

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

 

Is it your impression that a person must be properly baptized before they can be part of that one body? It looks to me like the answer would be Yes, based on the stuff we were just talking about 🙂

[Leaf474]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

If you want answers to questions, I would suggest you research church sites befor you start questioning here.

This link takes you directly for one in training about how to do Baptismal interviews.

12: How Do I Prepare People for Baptism and Confirmation?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/how-do-i-prepare-people-for-baptism-and-confirmation?lang=eng

Young missionaries usually do convert interviews, which bugs me, but they require training.  Read this and you too can do your own interview.  ( Not really!! 😉)

But really I would you get the direct church answers first.  I am not sure why you would take a different route!!  We who are posting here are amateurs- go to the leaders first makes the most sense to me!

Quote:

"Through this interview, baptismal candidates fulfill the scriptural requirement that they witness before an authorized representative of the Church that they have “truly repented of all their sins” (Doctrine and Covenants 20:37)."

 

It appears to begin with repentance, which makes sense to me.

You want to be free of sin? Stop sinning!

Or at least be working on it, NO ONE is perfect except Jesus of course.  Like any thing in life, it is step by step! 

It takes ACTION and practice to repent; to repent means to "re-think" if you look at the etymology of the French word from which it came.

Thanks for the info ❤️ One reason I'm asking here is that I found it surprisingly difficult to find clear answers to questions on the church's website. I couldn't really find anything on the relationship between forgiveness and baptism. The closest I found was the Elder Bednar talk from April 2016, but that focuses more on remission.

 

Another reason relates to the highly educated LDS person I believe I mentioned earlier. It was their impression that the Church website doesn't necessarily represent official doctrine; that official doctrine was found in General Conference talks. That's because revelation is ongoing, so you can't actually take something that Brigham Young said and say this is what LDS people today think. A further corollary of that is that it's only the more recent talks, again because of ongoing revelation.

 

A big plus is that all of the conference talks are on the church's website, and I have figured out ways to use things like Google to search for particular words.

 

I text messaged the missionaries in my area a few days ago, but they haven't responded. There seems to be a high turnover rate in this area ❤️

 

And finally, a big piece of what I'm also interested in is how those conference talks fall on the ears of my LDS friends who have listened to them 🙂

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the info ❤️ One reason I'm asking here is that I found it surprisingly difficult to find clear answers to questions on the church's website. I couldn't really find anything on the relationship between forgiveness and baptism. The closest I found was the Elder Bednar talk from April 2016, but that focuses more on remission.

Another reason relates to the highly educated LDS person I believe I mentioned earlier. It was their impression that the Church website doesn't necessarily represent official doctrine; that official doctrine was found in General Conference talks. That's because revelation is ongoing, so you can't actually take something that Brigham Young said and say this is what LDS people today think. A further corollary of that is that it's only the more recent talks, again because of ongoing revelation.

A big plus is that all of the conference talks are on the church's website, and I have figured out ways to use things like Google to search for particular words.

I text messaged the missionaries in my area a few days ago, but they haven't responded. There seems to be a high turnover rate in this area ❤️

And finally, a big piece of what I'm also interested in is how those conference talks fall on the ears of my LDS friends who have listened to them 🙂

It's a manner of speaking.

"Faith"=Baptism

LDS do speak of having belief as sufficient for salvation - from punishment but insufficient for exaltation without action. We need faith, which is belief plus action. Faith implies not only the belief but also its implementation. Beliefs compel people to act. Failure to act on the teachings and commandments of Christ implies absence of faith, you show faith by works (Matt. 7:21; James 2:17-18).

Faith is something that grows, "nourish the word…by [their] faith with great diligence," it will grow into a tree of life, and they will taste its fruit, which is eternal life (Alma 32:26-43).

God delights to bless his children, he "first, [tries] their faith,…then shall the greater things be made manifest" (3 Ne. 26:9). But there will be "no witness until after the trial of your faith" (Ether 12:6), and "without faith you can do nothing" (D&C 8:10). "Signs come by faith, not by the will of men" (D&C 63:10).

"Remission of sins", forgiveness=baptism

To obtain God's forgiveness is made possible by the Atonement. It is the blessing sought by those who fervently prayed, "O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified" (Mosiah 4:2). However, having one's sins remitted is a vital part of this forgiveness.

Baptism for the remission of sins is one of the most prominent themes of the scriptures. Yes, authority to administer the ordinance of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins is held by bearers of the Aaronic Priesthood (D&C 13; 107:20) and the Melchizedek Priesthood (D&C 20:38-45). Those who do not receive a remission of sins through baptism are not born of God and exclude themselves from his kingdom (Alma 7:14-16; D&C 84:74), even though they are not punished for their sins.

A true commitment to Christ is to also engage in repentance, one keeps the commandments, submits to baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. The initial sense of repentance and forgiveness that leads one to the ordinances (D&C 20:37) is amplified and confirmed through the baptism of fire administered by the Comforter (2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31).

On going remission is needed to combat on going transgression, for "unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God" (D&C 82:7). So, "For the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God…ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants" (Mosiah 4:26).

Edited April 17, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Leaf474 said:

that official doctrine was found in General Conference talks.

Here is a list of resources on what is doctrine:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/si/questions/what-is-doctrine?lang=eng
 

This is a direct link for the Mormon newsroom article, which is the best summary imo the Church has done so far that I have seen:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 Best to read the full article, but this is the most important part:

Quote

Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenantsand the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine.

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Calm

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

It's a manner of speaking.

"Faith"=Baptism

LDS do speak of having belief as sufficient for salvation - from punishment but insufficient for exaltation without action. We need faith, which is belief plus action. Faith implies not only the belief but also its implementation. Beliefs compel people to act. Failure to act on the teachings and commandments of Christ implies absence of faith, you show faith by works (Matt. 7:21; James 2:17-18).

Faith is something that grows, "nourish the word…by [their] faith with great diligence," it will grow into a tree of life, and they will taste its fruit, which is eternal life (Alma 32:26-43).

God delights to bless his children, he "first, [tries] their faith,…then shall the greater things be made manifest" (3 Ne. 26:9). But there will be "no witness until after the trial of your faith" (Ether 12:6), and "without faith you can do nothing" (D&C 8:10). "Signs come by faith, not by the will of men" (D&C 63:10).

"Remission of sins", forgiveness=baptism

To obtain God's forgiveness is made possible by the Atonement. It is the blessing sought by those who fervently prayed, "O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified" (Mosiah 4:2). However, having one's sins remitted is a vital part of this forgiveness.

Baptism for the remission of sins is one of the most prominent themes of the scriptures. Yes, authority to administer the ordinance of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins is held by bearers of the Aaronic Priesthood (D&C 13; 107:20) and the Melchizedek Priesthood (D&C 20:38-45). Those who do not receive a remission of sins through baptism are not born of God and exclude themselves from his kingdom (Alma 7:14-16; D&C 84:74), even though they are not punished for their sins.

A true commitment to Christ is to also engage in repentance, one keeps the commandments, submits to baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. The initial sense of repentance and forgiveness that leads one to the ordinances (D&C 20:37) is amplified and confirmed through the baptism of fire administered by the Comforter (2 Ne. 31:17; D&C 19:31).

On going remission is needed to combat on going transgression, for "unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God" (D&C 82:7). So, "For the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God…ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants" (Mosiah 4:26).

Thanks for the input ❤️ I found this part here especially helpful 🙂

14 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Those who do not receive a remission of sins through baptism are not born of God and exclude themselves from his kingdom (Alma 7:14-16; D&C 84:74), even though they are not punished for their sins.

 

[Vanguard]

14 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Those who do not receive a remission of sins through baptism are not born of God and exclude themselves from his kingdom (Alma 7:14-16; D&C 84:74), even though they are not punished for their sins.

This is all true as long as it is understood that all will be afforded the opportunity of baptism (literally or vicariously) whether in this life or the next. That's why we also perform baptisms for those who have passed on. And yes, we believe it must all be done with the proper authority. 

Welcome to the forum, Leaf. I saw your posts last night but have not had an opportunity until now to chime in. ; )

[Leaf474]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Here is a list of resources on what is doctrine:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/si/questions/what-is-doctrine?lang=eng
 

This is a direct link for the Mormon newsroom article, which is the best summary imo the Church has done so far that I have seen:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

 Best to read the full article, but this is the most important part:

 

Thanks for the info ❤️ I don't know much about the Book of Mormon, D&C, and Pearl. I do know a good bit about the Bible, and I know that various groups, such as Catholics and Baptists, interpret it in very different ways.

 

So I suspect that what is important to the Saints is how church leaders interpret the scriptures. Especially the things that are said repeatedly, since, as the newsroom article says, a single opinion by a leader doesn't by itself form doctrine.

 

And that's basically why I'm here. I want to get the impressions of the "Saint on the street" who has heard the church leaders again and again over the years 🙂.

 

I love you all!

[Leaf474]

35 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

This is all true as long as it is understood that all will be afforded the opportunity of baptism (literally or vicariously) whether in this life or the next. That's why we also perform baptisms for those who have passed on. And yes, we believe it must all be done with the proper authority. 

Welcome to the forum, Leaf. I saw your posts last night but have not had an opportunity until now to chime in. ; )

Thank you for the input and the welcome 🙂 Yes, I've heard of the idea of baptism after death.

 

A thing I'm finding interesting is that while the Saints I've talked to go to great lengths to emphasize that there are good people in all religions, in actuality only properly baptized people are part of the church. Methodists and Presbyterians may be good people, and they may have some truths, but they are outside of the body of Christ and the kingdom of God, and they can't have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

 

That's what I've pieced together so far. Not saying that in anger or anything like that 🙂

 

And thank you for the warm welcome 🤗

[Vanguard]

8 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thank you for the input and the welcome 🙂 Yes, I've heard of the idea of baptism after death.

 

A thing I'm finding interesting is that while the Saints I've talked to go to great lengths to emphasize that there are good people in all religions, in actuality only properly baptized people are part of the church. Methodists and Presbyterians may be good people, and they may have some truths, but they are outside of the body of Christ and the kingdom of God, and they can't have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

 

That's what I've pieced together so far. Not saying that in anger or anything like that 🙂

 

And thank you for the warm welcome 🤗

Warm welcome indeed here in Utah! And finally! ;o

I would put my own personal spin (though I believe it is the most reasonable!) on this idea of being "outside of the body of Christ and the Kingdom of God". I simply don't believe it in the most meaningful sense. Yes, there is a sense of being outside of the kingdom as it were without the proper baptism but in a significantly more meaningful way it pales in comparison to the idea of folks following their consciences (whether Christian or not) and contributing to the betterment of themselves, their families, and their society whether they've been baptized or not. In other words, how can one be 'left out' if indeed they are following their own conscience that might lead them away from being baptized with the proper authority?

That's a whole mouthful said! It may lead to a fruitful discussion or otherwise... ; )

Edited April 17, 2023 by Vanguard

[Calm]

Leaf, I don’t know how much you have studied, but in order to avoid misunderstandings or waste time, I always suggest reading the Gospel Principles manual early in any doctrinal study of our faith.  It is the closest thing we have to a systematic teaching and it covers the basic stuff that the vast majority of Saints will understand in pretty much the same way. I believe it is easier to understand the details when you have a better understanding of the whole.  For example, the principles of continuing revelation, eternal progression, and agency have huge impact on how we view faith, repentance, obedience, accountability, missionary and temple work, the nature of the relationship between God and man, the Atonement, the purpose of God’s work, the purpose of mankind, salvation, prophets, etc.  Thus, if one approaches from the wrong end of continuing revelation and agency, one might get the wrong idea about how we view morality or many other beliefs.

it is a relatively quick read and has the very useful feature of linking to scriptures, so it can help with seeing how we generally interpret scriptures.  Where we Saints mostly start differing from one another is in the nuances, the details of those principles.  So if you haven’t read it yet, I would encourage you to do so as it will help create a framework that helps make our doctrine make sense.  It can be difficult to understand doctrines if people try to use their own assumptions/worldview to understand ours because we have many different assumptions about the nature of the universe, the nature of God and man so it can be confusing.  Even a lot of Saints don’t think much about our assumptions and how they may be different, so they don’t get why something might be an issue or why nonmembers may get confused because we may use the same words, but may have our own meaning for it or often use two meanings, such as for the word salvation.

The manual is available online here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

As far as “Saints on the Street”, the board isn’t a great snapshot of typical Saints in that many of us have spent more time studying history or researching academic views of scripture as well as attending the weekly Sunday and other lessons and reading our scriptures that other devout Saints do.  But that also means you are talking to people who likely have more experience in discussing belief, so will be better at catching issues and communicating nuances, so it’s a trade off.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

they are outside of the body of Christ and the kingdom of God,

But they are all part of the family of God and have always been, which is most important as the other states can change as they grow in understanding and nothing is withheld them in the end.

Since we believe in eternal progression no one is lost just because during mortality they lack or rather are unaware of the relationship they had with God before they were born and will have again in full if they do desire in the afterlife.

Nor does it appear to bother God since the vast majority of his children have not been members of the Church.  If it was crucial to man’s happiness to be part of the body of Christ in mortality, our loving and perfect Father would have ensured we all had the opportunity.  Not having the chance to be a member of the body of Christ does therefore not appear to be a reward or a punishment.  We believe mortality is set up to allow for the best opportunities to develop and practice agency though this also means that some will be deprived of these opportunities (for example, someone choosing to use their agency to kill prevents another from using theirs; a parent choosing to expose their child to damaging chemicals may limit their child’s agency through brain damage; governments choosing to be dictatorships limit the agency of their citizens).  For some, this appears to be best outside the Church, perhaps even outside Christianity.  We are all judged in accordance to what level of knowledge of God’s laws and his Way we have.  Some outside the Church may end up doing a great deal more with what they have than what a Saint chooses to do with the teachings they comprehend.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

On 4/16/2023 at 8:17 PM, Leaf474 said:

That's how I read it, too 🙂 One more question, if you're interested:

 

In 1 Corinthians 12, Paul writes

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit.

 

Is it your impression that a person must be properly baptized before they can be part of that one body? It looks to me like the answer would be Yes, based on the stuff we were just talking about 🙂

My answer would be an unequivocal "yes," because baptism may only be performed by one holding the Aaronic or Melchizedek priesthood as restored by John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John to Joseph Smith. For all who have not been baptized by proper authority, there will be an opportunity provided before the final judgement. All are children of God and all must be baptized according to his word.

Quote

2 Nephi 31: 10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son. 12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do. 

Throughout the Book of Mormon, only authorized priesthood holders performed baptisms.

[Leaf474]

18 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Warm welcome indeed here in Utah! And finally! ;o

I would put my own personal spin (though I believe it is the most reasonable!) on this idea of being "outside of the body of Christ and the Kingdom of God". I simply don't believe it in the most meaningful sense. Yes, there is a sense of being outside of the kingdom as it were without the proper baptism but in a significantly more meaningful way it pales in comparison to the idea of folks following their consciences (whether Christian or not) and contributing to the betterment of themselves, their families, and their society whether they've been baptized or not. In other words, how can one be 'left out' if indeed they are following their own conscience that might lead them away from being baptized with the proper authority?

That's a whole mouthful said! It may lead to a fruitful discussion or otherwise... ; )

Hmmm... 🤔 Hopefully it will lead to a fruitful discussion 🙂 Are you saying that it doesn't really matter if a person is baptized or not? Or at least that it doesn't matter very much? Is this a common LDS view? Is this something the leaders talk about on a regular basis?

 

Thanks in advance 🙂

[Leaf474]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

Leaf, I don’t know how much you have studied, but in order to avoid misunderstandings or waste time, I always suggest reading the Gospel Principles manual early in any doctrinal study of our faith.  It is the closest thing we have to a systematic teaching and it covers the basic stuff that the vast majority of Saints will understand in pretty much the same way. I believe it is easier to understand the details when you have a better understanding of the whole.  For example, the principles of continuing revelation, eternal progression, and agency have huge impact on how we view faith, repentance, obedience, accountability, missionary and temple work, the nature of the relationship between God and man, the Atonement, the purpose of God’s work, the purpose of mankind, salvation, prophets, etc.  Thus, if one approaches from the wrong end of continuing revelation and agency, one might get the wrong idea about how we view morality or many other beliefs.

it is a relatively quick read and has the very useful feature of linking to scriptures, so it can help with seeing how we generally interpret scriptures.  Where we Saints mostly start differing from one another is in the nuances, the details of those principles.  So if you haven’t read it yet, I would encourage you to do so as it will help create a framework that helps make our doctrine make sense.  It can be difficult to understand doctrines if people try to use their own assumptions/worldview to understand ours because we have many different assumptions about the nature of the universe, the nature of God and man so it can be confusing.  Even a lot of Saints don’t think much about our assumptions and how they may be different, so they don’t get why something might be an issue or why nonmembers may get confused because we may use the same words, but may have our own meaning for it or often use two meanings, such as for the word salvation.

The manual is available online here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles?lang=eng

As far as “Saints on the Street”, the board isn’t a great snapshot of typical Saints in that many of us have spent more time studying history or researching academic views of scripture as well as attending the weekly Sunday and other lessons and reading our scriptures that other devout Saints do.  But that also means you are talking to people who likely have more experience in discussing belief, so will be better at catching issues and communicating nuances, so it’s a trade off.

Thanks for the information ❤️

 

Say, is there a way to "like" posts here? I see at the bottom right of your post there is a green square with a 3 in it. I'm guessing that means three people have liked it? Is that something that's available to me now, or maybe after I make more posts or something?

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Leaf474 said:

Thanks for the information ❤️

 

Say, is there a way to "like" posts here? I see at the bottom right of your post there is a green square with a 3 in it. I'm guessing that means three people have liked it? Is that something that's available to me now, or maybe after I make more posts or something?

Once you hit 25 posts you will be able to give points, edit your posts and start new threads in other forums besides Social.

[Leaf474]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

But they are all part of the family of God and have always been, which is most important as the other states can change as they grow in understanding and nothing is withheld them in the end.

Since we believe in eternal progression no one is lost just because during mortality they lack or rather are unaware of the relationship they had with God before they were born and will have again in full if they do desire in the afterlife.

Nor does it appear to bother God since the vast majority of his children have not been members of the Church.  If it was crucial to man’s happiness to be part of the body of Christ in mortality, our loving and perfect Father would have ensured we all had the opportunity.  Not having the chance to be a member of the body of Christ does therefore not appear to be a reward or a punishment.  We believe mortality is set up to allow for the best opportunities to develop and practice agency though this also means that some will be deprived of these opportunities (for example, someone choosing to use their agency to kill prevents another from using theirs; a parent choosing to expose their child to damaging chemicals may limit their child’s agency through brain damage; governments choosing to be dictatorships limit the agency of their citizens).  For some, this appears to be best outside the Church, perhaps even outside Christianity.  We are all judged in accordance to what level of knowledge of God’s laws and his Way we have.  Some outside the Church may end up doing a great deal more with what they have than what a Saint chooses to do with the teachings they comprehend.

Okay... I can see that if basically everyone makes it in the end, it doesn't really matter if you're in the church now or not. I mean, if that's what you're saying 🤔❤️

 

So, somewhat related question popped up in my mind while reading your post. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask it or not, but here goes 😃 : People that aren't baptized before they die, do they have to be baptized by name by someone here on Earth? If so, how does that work for people who lived in times and places where those records weren't kept?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Leaf474 said:

Okay... I can see that if basically everyone makes it in the end, it doesn't really matter if you're in the church now or not. I mean, if that's what you're saying 🤔❤️

 

So, somewhat related question popped up in my mind while reading your post. I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask it or not, but here goes 😃 : People that aren't baptized before they die, do they have to be baptized by name by someone here on Earth? If so, how does that work for people who lived in times and places where those records weren't kept?

We believe there will be a 1,000 year period, after Jesus' return, called the Millennium during which spirits will be able to appear to living people, and request Baptism.

Think of the millions who lived before Jesus was on earth, who perhaps never even knew the name of Jesus much less his teachings, who now want, after instruction on the other side, by already Baptized missionaries to the dead, to be baptized themselves, and will be by proxy by living members. 

That is the major function of Temples and baptism for the dead.

[Leaf474]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Once you hit 25 posts you will be able to give points, edit your posts and start new threads in other forums besides Social.

Thanks! If I'm still here after 25 posts, I'll try to remember to come back and get this post a Like 😄

[Leaf474]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We believe there will be a 1,000 year period, after Jesus' return, called the Millennium during which spirits will be able to appear to living people, and request Baptism.

Think of the millions who lived before Jesus was on earth, who perhaps never even knew the name of Jesus much less his teachings, who now want, after instruction on the other side, by already Baptized missionaries to the dead, to be baptized themselves, and will be by proxy by living members. 

That is the major function of Temples and baptism for the dead.

Thanks! Now, not to beat this to death, but if everyone who wants baptism can be baptized during the millennium, what's the rush to baptize for the dead now?

 

Is it that going to the temple and performing ordinances there for dead people benefits the currently living Saint as well as the dead person?