Recent updates to General Handbook

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Does enduring to the end satisfy the requirements for exaltation?

Are you under the impression that there is a check list of things that people can do to guarantee their salvation, that is separate and outside of the Atonement of Christ?  Because just because a person must do things to become a joint-heir with Christ, doesn't mean that those things are what is making them joint-heirs.

Think of it it this way:

Your lungs need to inhale and exhale for you to live, right?  Does that mean that if you do that on Mars, you'll live?  No of course not.  Though inhaling and exhaling are requirements for life, satisfying the requirements ultimately mean nothing if there's not oxygen in the air we are breathing.  

It's the oxygen that our bodies need, and it's the oxygen that keeps us alive.  We have to inhale and exhale to have access to the oxygen, but it's not the inhaling and exhaling that provides life.  What keeps us alive is outside of our ability to provide for ourselves, which is why we can inhale and exhale for all it's worth on Mars, and we're still going to die.

Grace and works and the Atonement of Christ work the same way.  Some things (like resurrection) are freely given with no requirements attached.  Other things, like becoming a joint heir with Christ, have requirements (or conditions) attached in order to access their saving properties.  

But it's not the requirements or conditions that saves us, it's Christ's Atonement.  Just like it's not the breathing that keeps us alive, it's the oxygen that the breathing allows us to access.

[telnetd]

On 9/12/2024 at 12:28 PM, bluebell said:

Are you under the impression that there is a check list of things that people can do to guarantee their salvation, that is separate and outside of the Atonement of Christ?  Because just because a person must do things to become a joint-heir with Christ, doesn't mean that those things are what is making them joint-heirs.

Think of it it this way:

Your lungs need to inhale and exhale for you to live, right?  Does that mean that if you do that on Mars, you'll live?  No of course not.  Though inhaling and exhaling are requirements for life, satisfying the requirements ultimately mean nothing if there's not oxygen in the air we are breathing.

No. You cannot separate salvation from the Atonement of Christ.  You don't have 
to do anything to guarantee salvation (in the sense of resurrection), but you need 
to do certain things so that the Atonement of Christ can guarantee you a spot in 
the highest division of the celestial kingdom.

On 9/12/2024 at 12:28 PM, bluebell said:

 It's the oxygen that our bodies need, and it's the oxygen that keeps us alive.  We have to inhale and exhale to have access to the oxygen, but it's not the inhaling and exhaling that provides life.  What keeps us alive is outside of our ability to provide for ourselves, which is why we can inhale and exhale for all it's worth on Mars, and we're still going to die.

I can agree with that. Christ is the oxygen.  That part is free, due to his grace. 
Our effort is breathing the oxygen.

On 9/12/2024 at 12:28 PM, bluebell said:

Grace and works and the Atonement of Christ work the same way.  Some things (like resurrection) are freely given with no requirements attached.  Other things, like becoming a joint heir with Christ, have requirements (or conditions) attached in order to access their saving properties.  

But it's not the requirements or conditions that saves us, it's Christ's Atonement.  Just like it's not the breathing that keeps us alive, it's the oxygen that the breathing allows us to access.

What happens if you are saved by grace (through his Atonement) but you refuse to 
breath the oxygen Christ gives you to achieve eternal life?

[telnetd]

On 9/12/2024 at 12:27 PM, InCognitus said:

Yet in pretty much every place that the apostle Paul talks about gaining eternal life in scripture (including his discussion in Romans 6:9-12, where he concludes that "the gift of God is eternal life"), he presents it with the urgency of those seeking it becoming obedient servants of righteousness and "according to [a person's] deeds" (Romans 2:1-11),even in "Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life." (1 Timothy 6:17-19).  It all goes together.

Yes.  But eternal life is not becoming a God.

[telnetd]

On 9/12/2024 at 11:24 AM, JAHS said:

That's part of it as long as we become what God wants us to become as we endure to the end. 

God wants you to become a God?

[telnetd]

On 9/12/2024 at 10:46 AM, Calm said:

Great, we agree there.

Why do you believe such things are required from us by God?

Faith, baptism, repentance, enduring to the end are the key ones. Charity, love, 
(summed up by the two great commandments).  Celestial marriage?  No. Being single 
is a gift from God. Keeping the Word of Wisdom? No.  What comes out of a man defiles 
him. Temple work? No. After the resurrection of Christ, they still went to the 
temple, but it was not for ordinances. Build temples? No. Believers are the temple 
of the Holy Ghost. We build other places of worship (some call churches or chapels) 
but we don't require a pass to enter them. Wearing fig leaf garments in temple 
ceremonies?  No. By the way, God rejected those.  Wearing other garments to 
spiritually protect us? No.

Edited September 15, 2024 by telnetd

[JAHS]

59 minutes ago, telnetd said:

God wants you to become a God?

I think that's the general idea:

D&C 84
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

Psalm 82:6
“I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

Mat 5:48
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Being single 
is a gift from God.

So marriage is not from God?  It is better to be single in your view?

[webbles]

5 hours ago, telnetd said:

Yes.  But eternal life is not becoming a God.

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

God wants you to become a God?

We do believe that eternal life is becoming a god and we do believe that God wants us to become a god.

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, telnetd said:

God wants you to become a God?

Joseph Smith said, “You have got to learn how to be a god yourself.”
But he also said, “It is not all to be comprehended in this world,” and “It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole.” (Joseph Smith Papers)

[telnetd]

On 9/15/2024 at 6:15 PM, JAHS said:

Joseph Smith said, “You have got to learn how to be a god yourself.”
But he also said, “It is not all to be comprehended in this world,” and “It will take a long time after the grave to understand the whole.” (Joseph Smith Papers)

Does that mean the Book of Mormon, said to contain the fulness of the Gospel, and 
all the church teachings published so far, are not sufficient to learn how to be 
a god?

[telnetd]

On 9/15/2024 at 3:11 PM, webbles said:

We do believe that eternal life is becoming a god

From what scripture?

[telnetd]

On 9/15/2024 at 2:02 PM, Calm said:

So marriage is not from God?  It is better to be single in your view?

Marriage is from God.  But Jesus and Paul taught singleness can also be used for God's glory.

[telnetd]

On 9/15/2024 at 11:18 AM, JAHS said:

I think that's the general idea:

D&C 84
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.
39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

Psalm 82:6
“I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

Mat 5:48
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

 

Can true Gods be formed?

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Does that mean the Book of Mormon, said to contain the fulness of the Gospel, and 
all the church teachings published so far, are not sufficient to learn how to be 
a god?

Where does it say that the book of Mormon is said to contain all the church teaching so far?  I’ve never heard that before.

The “Fullness of the gospel” just means a more comprehensive understanding of the atonement.  

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Marriage is from God.  But Jesus and Paul taught singleness can also be used for God's glory.

I agree. 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

From what scripture?

That we believe God wants us to be a god?  Or that eternal life is becoming a god?

I guess I'd recommend D&C 76: 50-70 and Moses 1:39.  But I'm not exactly sure what you are asking for.

 

[JAHS]

5 hours ago, telnetd said:

Can true Gods be formed?

Apparently they can be according to scripture and latter-day revelation from our prophets.

"Man is a god in embryo and has in him the seeds of godhood, and he can, if he will, rise to great heights.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball (1982), 28)

 

[JAHS]

5 hours ago, telnetd said:

Does that mean the Book of Mormon, said to contain the fulness of the Gospel, and 
all the church teachings published so far, are not sufficient to learn how to be 
a god?

In the Book of Mormon Jesus said:

“Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.”

The Savior then reviewed for the Nephites the facts of the Atonement, including the need to repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end. (See 3 Ne. 27:13-22.) This then is Christ's own definition of the Gospel. We believe in latter-day revelation from our prophets that provides additional information about the gospel that we need to learn. But It is not just church teachings that we need to learn towards godhood, it is who we become as we learn and do that determines whether we will become a god.

[InCognitus]

On 9/15/2024 at 8:09 AM, telnetd said:

Yes.  But eternal life is not becoming a God.

Where does scripture say that?

22 hours ago, telnetd said:

Can true Gods be formed?

Since God is eternal, what does "before" or "after" mean to an eternal God?  What is God talking about when he says "before me" or "after me"?

Edited September 19, 2024 by InCognitus

[Stargazer]

On 9/10/2024 at 4:10 PM, telnetd said:

Yes. I read it. 

What do you believe qualifies you for exaltation?

You didn't ask me, but I'll give you an answer.

D&C 76 sets forth the degrees of glory: 

• Celestial: verses 50 thru 70.
• Terrestrial: verses 71 thru 79
• Telestial: verses 81 thru 88

In some ways these verses do not entirely go into the qualifications, per se, but describe the privileges associated with them. But the descriptions do indicate that

• those who inherit the Telestial ultimately rejected Christ and his Atonement, and have suffered for their own sins.
• those who inherit the Celestial and Terrestrial kingdoms accepted Christ and his Atonement, and were baptized either in life or by proxy afterwards. What sets them apart from each other?
  • It appears that those who rejected the gospel in this life, but accepted it afterwards, as it says in verse 74 -> "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it")
    • inherit the Terrestrial - I point out that in this case "receiving" means "accepting." You cannot receive that which is not offered. 
  • Those who never had a chance to hear the gospel in mortality, but did so in the afterlife
    • inherit the Terrestrial,
    • unless they were "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" in post-mortality, in which case they inherit the Celestial (see verse 79)
  • Those who accepted the gospel in mortality
    • inherit the Terrestrial
    • unless they were "valiant in the testimony of Jesus" in both mortality and post-mortality, in which ase they inherit the Celestial (see verse 79)
  • As set forth in verse 79 describing those in the Terrestrial kingdom -> "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God"). Therefore, those who are valiant do obtain the crown over the kingdom of our God.

What does it mean to be "valiant in the testimony of Jesus"? The scriptures seem to be full of all kinds of suggestions. But ultimately the final arbiter of all this is God. If God determines that you were valiant in the testimony of Jesus, then you inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

But having reached the Celestial kingdom, we haven't yet reached Exaltation. In D&C 131 and 132 the Lord describes a further qualification:

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

The new and everlasting covenant is described in D&C 132:6 -> "And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God."

Being "damned" in this context is to be understood in terms of D&C 131:4, "He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase." In other words, further progression is impossible, and one inherits one of the two lower heavens in the Celestial kingdom.

So, the answer to your question, what qualifies one for exaltation, is for one to

• accept Christ's Atonement when one is first presented it,
• be valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and
• enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.

When it comes to salvation in the Terrestrial kingdom, it seems that minimal effort is required. Believe, be baptized, and endure in righteousness to the end. And in this sense, the Evangelicals are right: salvation in the Terrestrial kingdom is not a matter of working hard, "lest any should boast." You're saved from suffering for your own sins, because Christ has suffered for you. But in Philippians 2:12, why does Paul write: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? How do you work out your own salvation if Christ has secured it for you? Simple answer: here Paul isn't talking about salvation from sin, but about salvation in the Celestial kingdom, in other words, what he wrote about in 1 Cor. 15:40. You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling by being valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

 

Edited September 19, 2024 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

On 9/15/2024 at 3:09 PM, telnetd said:

Yes.  But eternal life is not becoming a God.

It depends upon what the words mean.

Human language is not always adequate in conveying every nuance of what is to be conveyed. When two computer programmers "talk shop" with each other they will frequently use words in a different way from the way that two non-programmers might use the same words. The same is true of two architects or two military men who are "talking shop." What the word conveys depends somewhat upon the context in which it is spoken. 

God can only speak to us using our words. We do not speak nor understand his language. So He must work within our limitations. 

So what does "eternal life" mean to you? May I suppose that it means immortality to you? But when God uses the term "eternal life" what does He mean by it? Is He using it in the same context that you are using it?

[telnetd]

20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

So what does "eternal life" mean to you? May I suppose that it means immortality to you? But when God uses the term "eternal life" what does He mean by it? Is He using it in the same context that you are using it?

Eternal life can be understood as something Christians experience in the present. 
Believers don't have to wait until death to attain it; instead, eternal life begins 
the moment someone places their faith in Christ. It is something we currently 
possess. John 3:36 states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life," 
emphasizing that believers "have" (in the present tense) this life. This present-tense 
idea also appears in John 5:24 and John 6:47. The emphasis of eternal life is on 
our current relationship with Christ, rather than solely on our future.

Which scripture do you use to show eternal life is becoming or living life as a God?

[telnetd]

20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

So, the answer to your question, what qualifies one for exaltation, is for one to

• accept Christ's Atonement when one is first presented it,
• be valiant in the testimony of Jesus, and
• enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage.

When it comes to salvation in the Terrestrial kingdom, it seems that minimal effort is required. Believe, be baptized, and endure in righteousness to the end. And in this sense, the Evangelicals are right: salvation in the Terrestrial kingdom is not a matter of working hard, "lest any should boast." You're saved from suffering for your own sins, because Christ has suffered for you. But in Philippians 2:12, why does Paul write: "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? How do you work out your own salvation if Christ has secured it for you? Simple answer: here Paul isn't talking about salvation from sin, but about salvation in the Celestial kingdom, in other words, what he wrote about in 1 Cor. 15:40. You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling by being valiant in the testimony of Jesus.

Why should a person fear and tremble for not being exalted?

[telnetd]

On 9/19/2024 at 1:47 PM, InCognitus said:

Where does scripture say that?

There is no scripture that says eternal life is becoming a God or living life as
a God.  I was referring to "True to the Faith".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/true-to-the-faith/eternal-life?lang=eng

The Lord declared, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality 
and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected 
being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal 
life, or exaltation, is to inherit a place in the highest degree of the celestial 
kingdom, where we will live in God’s presence and continue as families (see D&C 131:1–4).

On 9/19/2024 at 1:47 PM, InCognitus said:

Since God is eternal, what does "before" or "after" mean to an eternal God?  What is God talking about when he says "before me" or "after me"?

I believe he is using those terms, "before" and "after", for our benefit so that
we can understand his nature.

What do you mean when you say God is eternal?  Is that your belief in a being who 
has always been God or a being who has always been an eternal intelligence who then 
progressed into becoming a God?

[telnetd]

On 9/18/2024 at 8:28 PM, JAHS said:

Apparently they can be according to scripture and latter-day revelation from our prophets.

"Man is a god in embryo and has in him the seeds of godhood, and he can, if he will, rise to great heights.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball (1982), 28)

 

Is that scripture?