Mississippi Bishop Resigns from the Pulpit

[bluebell]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:46 AM, Tacenda said:

I despise the "think celestial" comment from Pres Nelson. It's like when "ponderize" came out. But luckily that one bit the dust. Think celestial is now on items to be sold, or the saying. Plus for those that believe it, and may have a tough time knowing that they won't be with members of their family, as you've said here as well, is tough. 

 

I don't like slogans in general, and almost never when it comes to the Gospel.  "Think Celestial" sounds too much like a commercial or jingle for it to be useful to me (other people's mileage obviously varies.  We all learn differently).  When I leave out the slogan of Think Celestial though, and instead focus on what he said thinking celestial means, I don't have a problem with it.  

He says in the talk that thinking celestial means "to be spiritually minded".  Specifically, it means that "mortality is a master class in learning to choose the things of greatest eternal import. Far too many people live as though this life is all there is.... I encouraged you to begin with the end in mind. This means making the celestial kingdom your eternal goal and then carefully considering where each of your decisions while here on earth will place you in the next world."

I think that the whole "Think Celestial" thing distracts from his message, which is really just basic spiritual counsel for anyone who has a testimony in the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.   

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't like slogans in general, and almost never when it comes to the Gospel.  "Think Celestial" sounds too much like a commercial or jingle for it to be useful to me (other people's mileage obviously varies.  We all learn differently).  When I leave out the slogan of Think Celestial though, and instead focus on what he said thinking celestial means, I don't have a problem with it.  

He says in the talk that thinking celestial means "to be spiritually minded".  Specifically, it means that "mortality is a master class in learning to choose the things of greatest eternal import. Far too many people live as though this life is all there is.... I encouraged you to begin with the end in mind. This means making the celestial kingdom your eternal goal and then carefully considering where each of your decisions while here on earth will place you in the next world."

I think that the whole "Think Celestial" thing distracts from his message, which is really just basic spiritual counsel for anyone who has a testimony in the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.   

If it had stuck along these lines I think so many more could have agreed with the idea.

But talks can be pretty hard sometimes. There is a very good man in our ward that I think the best of. Today he talked about Mount Everest and how hard it is to climb. Then he compared it to our life on earth and trying to get to the Celestial Kingdom. 

The problem is that early on he said that climbing Mount Everest isn't for everyone. Then he talked about what a person needs to be and do to get there. And I thought, "I don't think you caught the implications of what you are saying there." Because while the doctrine is that some will be Celestial, some Terrestrial etc. he basically just told us that some do not have what it takes to go to the Celestial Kingdom and its not all because of how much we try. He also just discouraged a lot of people from trying more by telling how hard it is to get there. 

But I have to go back to his heart and his love for ward members. He just wants the best for us. I've never met President Nelson, but I'm just going to assume the same with him and in the meantime try to show my love for those who have felt hurt by the talks.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

If it had stuck along these lines I think so many more could have agreed with the idea.

But talks can be pretty hard sometimes. There is a very good man in our ward that I think the best of. Today he talked about Mount Everest and how hard it is to climb. Then he compared it to our life on earth and trying to get to the Celestial Kingdom. 

The problem is that early on he said that climbing Mount Everest isn't for everyone. Then he talked about what a person needs to be and do to get there. And I thought, "I don't think you caught the implications of what you are saying there." Because while the doctrine is that some will be Celestial, some Terrestrial etc. he basically just told us that some do not have what it takes to go to the Celestial Kingdom and its not all because of how much we try. He also just discouraged a lot of people from trying more by telling how hard it is to get there. 

But I have to go back to his heart and his love for ward members. He just wants the best for us. I've never met President Nelson, but I'm just going to assume the same with him and in the meantime try to show my love for those who have felt hurt by the talks.

I agree. I was just speaking about the Think Celestial slogan and not all parts of the talk.

We are all so different, and we have different baggage, experience, and personalities. It makes sense to me that the same talk is going to be received in completely contradictory ways sometimes, even among believing members.

I listened to that podcast by the two gay active men and one was comforted by Pres. Nelson’s talk and the other was devastated. 

[mfbukowski]

On 1/27/2024 at 8:35 AM, Tacenda said:

I'm baffled by this post Calm. I'm also probably headed for dementia, or just dumb. Can you explain this to a 2 year old? Do you not believe in the the three kingdom separations? Or is it all allegory? Because I will whole handily agree with you if so.

I think justice demands levels of rewards, OR total equality.  Both can fit my view of God. 

I am a bit suspicious about all the details of who gets what

[Teancum]

On 1/27/2024 at 11:46 AM, Tacenda said:

I despise the "think celestial" comment from Pres Nelson. It's like when "ponderize" came out. But luckily that one bit the dust. Think celestial is now on items to be sold, or the saying. Plus for those that believe it, and may have a tough time knowing that they won't be with members of their family, as you've said here as well, is tough. 

 

The church seems to like these "pithy" slogans.  Think celestial, covenant path, the great plan of happiness, meet the Mormons (that one did not age well) and Man's search for happiness and so on.  They come and go.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

The church seems to like these "pithy" slogans.  Think celestial, covenant path, the great plan of happiness, meet the Mormons (that one did not age well) and Man's search for happiness and so on.  They come and go.

I looked on Deseret Book's website and didn't see items being sold with "think celestial" on them, but did see it on etsy and Amazon, so random people making some money off of the saying. I wonder if Deseret Book chose not to let people sell things with that on either key chains, hoodies or t-shirts, tree ornaments, stickers, journals or the list is long on etsy & Amazon. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I looked on Deseret Book's website and didn't see items being sold with "think celestial" on them, but did see it on etsy and Amazon, so random people making some money off of the saying. I wonder if Deseret Book chose not to let people sell things with that on either key chains, hoodies or t-shirts, tree ornaments, stickers, journals or the list is long on etsy & Amazon. 

They'd have to sue each one IF the churchTrademarked the saying.

Not likely in either case.

Edited January 29, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

On 1/27/2024 at 4:39 PM, Rain said:

Lot's of people had a hard time with President Nelson's "Think Celestial" talk. This was the part that I really had a hard time with:

" So, my dear brothers and sisters, how and where and with whom do you want to live forever? You get to choose."

 

If your parents, or your children, or cousins etc choose not to either join the church or choose to leave then you do NOT get to choose to live with them forever. If I leave the church that means my husband does not get to choose to be with me.

 

I sometimes wonder "Who on earth are these people?" who have these really puzzling reactions to perfectly reasonable gospel-centered talks by leaders. Must be the "How Dare You!" slice of the population who are trying to channel Greta Thunberg, and looking for offense in everything they hear. Here's the person they've presumably sustained as the premier prophet, seer, and revelator, and now they're murmuring about an admonition that is basically calling for everyone to repent of dwelling too much upon the things of this world and to keep themselves focused on the eternities. 

Talk about making someone an offender for a word.

This talk was the topic of our elders quorum discussion a couple of Sundays ago, and it seemed that everyone "got it," without the slightest evidence of offended brethren. And since I was the elders quorum president (now released, darn it) I always tried to pay close attention to gauge how the discussion was being received. 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

I sometimes wonder "Who on earth are these people?" who have these really puzzling reactions to perfectly reasonable gospel-centered talks by leaders. Must be the "How Dare You!" slice of the population who are trying to channel Greta Thunberg, and looking for offense in everything they hear.

I was one of those people who had a hard time as you see in what you quoted. It had absolutely nothing to do with taking offense with everything I hear. I was sitting there truly trying to gain something from the talk and what he said touched on one of the most painful times of my life as a mother. And it continued with my life the last few years as I have studied and prayed and struggled.

There may have been some looking for offense, but there were many of us that felt it from a position of pain. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Here's the person they've presumably sustained as the premier prophet, seer, and revelator, and now they're murmuring about an admonition that is basically calling for everyone to repent of dwelling too much upon the things of this world and to keep themselves focused on the eternities. 

It is exactly the focus on the eternities as to why this was painful. The eternities that don't include our loved ones or us with our loved ones because either they or us don't measure up.

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Talk about making someone an offender for a word.

I get that you don't get it. That you don't understand where we were coming from so I'm not taking offense at what you said, but it's hard to not feel hurt when you take what was painful and then state that we are just quick to take offense. But overall, I see you as a gentle and hope some day you will see our hearts for what they are.

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

This talk was the topic of our elders quorum discussion a couple of Sundays ago, and it seemed that everyone "got it," without the slightest evidence of offended brethren.

How many of us do you think would feel safe explaining how we felt at church? I find that I speak up much more than others because I understand that if I don't communicate then others will not understand the hearts of those who were hurt, but most stay silent. It's amazing to me how when I do that love pours out in those classes for those on the edge and they can better find a place for themselves with church members. But sometimes it is so hard to be that person!

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

And since I was the elders quorum president (now released, darn it) I always tried to pay close attention to gauge how the discussion was being received. 

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I was one of those people who had a hard time as you see in what you quoted. It had absolutely nothing to do with taking offense with everything I hear. I was sitting there truly trying to gain something from the talk and what he said touched on one of the most painful times of my life as a mother. And it continued with my life the last few years as I have studied and prayed and struggled.

We all have those moments when things we hear and see (and even just think of) that dredge up memories that we find unpleasant. I have them, too, of course, including most of my children falling away from the church and very much like Lehi's dream, taking paths that lead nowhere but into sadness. So I can't even read the Book of Mormon without being reminded of these things, over and over. Lehi's older sons, Alma's struggle with his son, his son's struggle after realizing how badly he'd messed up, and here I am wishing and praying for my kids to finally wake up.

1 hour ago, Rain said:

There may have been some looking for offense, but there were many of us that felt it from a position of pain. 

No doubt I was not contributing positively to the sense of loss felt by others by posting what I did. For that I apologize. 

1 hour ago, Rain said:

It is exactly the focus on the eternities as to why this was painful. The eternities that don't include our loved ones or us with our loved ones because either they or us don't measure up.

I get that you don't get it. That you don't understand where we were coming from so I'm not taking offense at what you said, but it's hard to not feel hurt when you take what was painful and then state that we are just quick to take offense. But overall, I see you as a gentle and hope some day you will see our hearts for what they are.

As I said, I have the same pains.  I spent thirty some years in a ward in Olympia, Washington. During that time I watched as my children, one after the other, fell away from the church as soon as they felt old enough to push their own worldly agendas over mine and my wife's. At the same time I watched other parents send their children on missions, see them married in the temple, and bring beautiful grandchildren into the church. Of course, not all of them stayed faithful, but it seemed that most of them did. Are my children then cast off never to return? Of course not. 

1 hour ago, Rain said:

How many of us do you think would feel safe explaining how we felt at church? I find that I speak up much more than others because I understand that if I don't communicate then others will not understand the hearts of those who were hurt, but most stay silent. It's amazing to me how when I do that love pours out in those classes for those on the edge and they can better find a place for themselves with church members. But sometimes it is so hard to be that person!

But "Thinking Celestial!" is particularly appropriate for those situations of loss, because we do not belong to one of those "heaven or hell" religions where you only get one (or none) chances. For those who accepted the gospel here in this life, unless we do something especially egregious, repentance in the Spirit World is still available. The Atonement will follow us out of mortality, because our life does not end with our physical death. How many members of the church who fall away will find their way back again, even as late as that? And there is still hope for a glorious resurrection and exaltation.

As for others, such as my father, who due to his lack of a religious upbringing, and then a couple of years of studying with the Jehovah's Witnesses -- who finally decided that all religion was manmade? He would not listen to the missionaries when I sent them to him while I served my full-time mission. He specifically instructed me to NOT have his work performed in the temple after he died. Of course I disobeyed him. He was one of those of whom it was said: "For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it..." (DC 123:12)

Those who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men include all those who were born into the church but who were led away by that subtle craftiness. If they were actually lost, then the Lord would not have continued with "Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven — These should then be attended to with great earnestness." (DC 123:13-14)

That great earnestness extends to our work not only in this life, but beyond the grave, and since when we die our labors are not done, we will be ministering again among both our descendants and ancestors. 

"Thinking Celestial" means to have hope, not despair, and to let our love cast out our fears. As Paul wrote: "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1 Cor. 15:19)

 

 

[CV75]

I hear the bishop who resigned from the pulpit wants to get his position back, that he was just having a bad day.

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

e I am wishing and praying for my kids to finally wake up.

[MustardSeed]

^^ sorry, editing issues.  
this is off topic a bit, but I suspect that this attitude is more alienating than the church itself.  I get where it comes from but I wish we could change this in our culture.  No doubt you want what is best for them. If what is best for them (as they understand it , which we all have a relationship with what we believe is best for ourselves) is not aligning with what you think is best for them, then that creates a sad division. 

Edited January 30, 2024 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I hear the bishop who resigned from the pulpit wants to get his position back, that he was just having a bad day.

Do you have a reference for this? Not a formal CFR, just wanting to see where this rumor is coming from. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you have a reference for this? Not a formal CFR, just wanting to see where this rumor is coming from. 

I should have put a  in there -- sorry!

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I should have put a  in there -- sorry!

That makes way more sense. 😜

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I hear the bishop who resigned from the pulpit wants to get his position back, that he was just having a bad day.

I would turn that down as lovingly as possible if I was the SP, and get him some counciling -like yesterday.

He has lost trust with the ward at this point imo.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I would turn that down as lovingly as possible if I was the SP, and get him some counciling -like yesterday.

He has lost trust with the ward at this point imo.

For sure!  Fortunately it doesn’t work that way.  

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I would turn that down as lovingly as possible if I was the SP, and get him some counciling -like yesterday.

He has lost trust with the ward at this point imo.

Oh my apologies -- as I subsequently noted, I should have added a  to that post (I wasn't serious)

[Teancum]

On 1/30/2024 at 6:21 AM, Stargazer said:

This talk was the topic of our elders quorum discussion a couple of Sundays ago, and it seemed that everyone "got it," without the slightest evidence of offended brethren. And since I was the elders quorum president (now released, darn it) I always tried to pay close attention to gauge how the discussion was being received. 

I sat through many priesthood and Sunday school lessons where I did not "get it" whatever that means.  Where I wanted to speak up but did not becasue I knew my comments would not be well received.  When I could object to something tactfully I did but that was rare.  So don't assume all your quorum members "got it."

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

^^ sorry, editing issues.  
this is off topic a bit, but I suspect that this attitude is more alienating than the church itself.  I get where it comes from but I wish we could change this in our culture.  No doubt you want what is best for them. If what is best for them (as they understand it , which we all have a relationship with what we believe is best for ourselves) is not aligning with what you think is best for them, then that creates a sad division. 

I don't preach to them, and let them go about their affairs without commentary. If they ask for advice I give it, regardless of whether I think they'll follow it. They never complain about the church, to me at least, and when asked what their religion is they will say they're Mormon, but admit to not being a very good one. 

I express my frustration only here, not to them. They know what the standards are, and if they don't follow them, that's their choice. And they know that, too.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I sat through many priesthood and Sunday school lessons where I did not "get it" whatever that means.  Where I wanted to speak up but did not becasue I knew my comments would not be well received.  When I could object to something tactfully I did but that was rare.  So don't assume all your quorum members "got it."

I don't. But you may have noted that I wrote "they seemed to get it" in my post. One of our more rebellious quorum members did speak up during the discussion, but only to endorse what President Nelson said. We're a pretty small ward, and I know reasonably well who they all are -- at least the ones that attend.

[Teancum]

59 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't. But you may have noted that I wrote "they seemed to get it" in my post. One of our more rebellious quorum members did speak up during the discussion, but only to endorse what President Nelson said. We're a pretty small ward, and I know reasonably well who they all are -- at least the ones that attend.

Well even seeming to get it can be misread.  I often felt alone.  Only to later find out that others were struggling and at the same time keeping silent.

[Maestrophil]

He was just on Mormon Stories - and answered a lot of questions.

[bluebell]

30 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

He was just on Mormon Stories - and answered a lot of questions.

Can you share what you learned?