Mississippi Bishop Resigns from the Pulpit

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

hope you're not saying it is a seriously flawed plan.

No, because I believe there is a purpose to the suffering as I mention in a recent post (to help us understand what it is like to live without God so we can make an informed choice, among other reasons that are more commonly mentioned by members like agency).

But for those who don’t have that belief, who see no need for the suffering, who believe an all powerful God could have created a better world and simple chose not to, God sending his children to such a world is not evidence of love or anything much besides sadism or neglect even if on the other side they get a big reward for enduring it all. 

Edited January 26 by Calm

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

No, because I believe there is a purpose to the suffering as I mention in a recent post (to help us understand what it is like to live without God so we can make an informed choice, among other reasons that are more commonly mentioned by members like agency).

But for those who don’t have that belief, who see no need for the suffering, who believe an all powerful God could have created a better world and simple chose not to, God sending his children to such a world is not evidence of love or anything much besides sadism or neglect even if on the other side they get a big reward for enduring it all. 

I can definitely see that -- because I've heard it from non-LDS who have discussed it with me, and even from LDS in church who seemed not to have gotten the memo. Or, as Cleon Skousen once said, who missed the meeting where it was on the agenda.

But it appears I was talking about something different. And that was the suffering inherent in the rejection of Christ's atoning sacrifice, not the various kinds of suffering people have to endure in daily life here on earth. Which was what you were talking about, so I was attempting to answer the wrong question! Mea culpa!

[Calm]

17 hours ago, smac97 said:

Legrand Richards said this was "a little saying" in the ward when he was young.  And apart from his 1973 talk at BYU referencing it, it has apparently never been repeated in any Church publication.

I remember hearing it some in my youth in my wards.  I didn’t understand exactly what it meant at the time, but as a young teen it came across as a slogan for overachievers, first place winner or last place loser….no other options.  That interpretation I didn’t feel that bad about as I see exaltation well within the reach of any who desire it, God being both merciful and the perfect teacher/coach.  When I learned what it actually meant, that any separation from God no matter how minor was viewed as damnation, no matter if one got to the threshold of the exaltation door and hesitate and said ‘this will be my place, I can welcome and support and learn from those who take the further steps, but I am not ready for that yet’…the idea that this person whose eyes and heart were focused on exaltation, but felt he was not yet ready to be a full part of it would be viewed as damned as those who were running as fast and as far from the threshold of exaltation to get to their warm and cozy domain of outer darkness just didn’t make sense to me and feels like it is rewriting the Plan of Salvation as God’s version is for wimps and they want a tough guy one.

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think the Plan of Salvation is a fascinating, and quite rational, summary of God's plan for us. 

Well we disagree.

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

 

It touches on all the Big Questions.  Who are we?  Where did we come from?  What is our relationship to God?  What are His attributes?  What is the role of Jesus Christ in our lives?  If God exists, why does He allow evil and suffering in the world?  Why are we here, and what should we do and not do while on this earth?  Will we continue to exist after we die?  Will our decisions in this life affect us in the Hereafter?  Where are we going?  What doe God intend for us?

 

It attempts to answer those question sure. So?  That does not make the answers Mormonism provides necessarily compelling or rational.  But I have said many time in this hboard, and I think even on this thread, that I do find the ideas presented in D&C 76 much more compelling of a scenario and the afterlife than the rest of Christianity. It seems more fair and kind.  But that does not mean I find it rational.

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I said:  "And you do it to make it work in your understanding based on your belief that Mormonism if God's true religion."  

What I mean is that Calm speculations are framed by her belief in Mormonism's doctrine and she is trying to fit answers in that paradigm.

 

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

"Common Sense" sure seems to be a malleable thing when we want it to be.

Well humans are really good at taking all sorts of irrational beliefs and trying to find answers that fit those irrational beliefs and then calling it common sense.

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

In your apparent denunciation of God as "a cruel being" (or in your denunciation of the Church's teachings about His character, attributes, motives, etc.), you need to account for the Telestial Kingdom, and the characterization in D&C 76:89 of its glory as "surpass{ing} all understanding."

Thanks,

-Smac

You seem to forget I am as aware of Mormonism and it's doctrines as you are so your conclusion about what I "need to take to account" is flawed because I already have.

Edited January 26 by Teancum

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Huh.  Fifty years in the Church, and this is the first time I'm hearing this statement.

Legrand Richards said this was "a little saying" in the ward when he was young.  And apart from his 1973 talk at BYU referencing it, it has apparently never been repeated in any Church publication.  As Elder Andersen so aptly noted some years back:

To me, your quote comes across as a remnant of the more strident rhetoric and flourishes that were more common in the 19th century.  It is merely a snippet of one talk by one General Authority, in which he characterizes the statement as "a little saying" from his childhood in the last part of the 19th century.  It typifies what Elder Andersen was referencing as something "hidden in an obscure paragraph of one talk."

I don't think it is fair or accurate to characterize it as a doctrine or teaching of the Church.  This is particularly so where you deliberately omit far more authoritative and clear statements and characterizations of the Church's doctrines and teachings on salvation.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 I did not say the statement was doctrine.  But it has been said.  And I heard it frequently growing up.  

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I remember hearing it some in my youth in my wards.  I didn’t understand exactly what it meant at the time, but as a young teen it came across as a slogan for overachievers, first place winner or last place loser….no other options.  That interpretation I didn’t feel that bad about as I see exaltation well within the reach of any who desire it, God being both merciful and the perfect teacher/coach.  When I learned what it actually meant, that any separation from God no matter how minor was viewed as damnation, no matter if one got to the threshold of the exaltation door and hesitate and said ‘this will be my place, I can welcome and support and learn from those who take the further steps, but I am not ready for that yet’…the idea that this person whose eyes and heart were focused on exaltation, but felt he was not yet ready to be a full part of it would be viewed as damned as those who were running as fast and as far from the threshold of exaltation to get to their warm and cozy domain of outer darkness just didn’t make sense to me and feels like it is rewriting the Plan of Salvation as God’s version is for wimps and they want a tough guy one.

I seem to vaguely recall hearing that phrase when I was new in the church (convert at age 14). But in a way, it was kind of "meh," to me. 

The Plan of Salvation as presented  by the missionaries (on a flannel board, no less), struck me, an investigator, as an exciting prospect. I kind of grew up on the Baptist "hellfire" threat (on the rare times I attended my stepmom's church), but I wasn't afraid of it. I don't know why I wasn't impressed. Perhaps I didn't really believe it, or perhaps I didn't think I could do the kind of things wrong that would land me in it. I think I missed the part which said if you didn't accept Jesus as your Savior you were going to hell, no matter how good you were in life.

What struck me as exciting about what I saw on the flannel board was that I didn't have to worry about the Baptist never-ending hellfire. The way the missionaries presented it, or at least, the way I took it, was that everything was A-OK. If you didn't rate the top end of the spectrum, the bottom wasn't bad at all -- one of my church friends told me that if you knew how great the Telestial Kingdom was, you'd kill yourself just to get in. 

Much later, when I had a better understanding, I saw things more clearly. I saw that Father put us here because He is testing us to see which of us can be trusted to become what He is. This is because he knows we have the potential to be what He is; that's why we're here. So, failing to fulfill that potential could be seen a kind of failure to achieve what Father knew we could be. I'm not entirely on board with that being a failure. All of us born here in mortality are the creme de la creme of Father's creation. We have already achieved greatness on a scale we cannot now comprehend, and all that's left is a sifting as to the final degree of greatness we are worthy of.

"[A]ny separation from God no matter how minor was viewed as damnation," seems like an unnecessarily negative view of things. As I understand it, if you are not worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, you would feel entirely uncomfortable there, and would prefer to be where you are comfortable -- and contrary to that idea that you would feel damned, you would know everything to be entirely right, and the way it should be. How could the other kingdoms be called kingdoms of glory, if they were not glorious to their denizens? 

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think the Plan of Salvation is a fascinating, and quite rational, summary of God's plan for us. 

Well we disagree.

What do you propose as the alternative? I'm assuming that you don't believe in God any longer, but if you were God, how would you do it, and what ultimate purpose would it serve?

If all there is to life is a snuffing out of the candle at the end, then I suppose this is a useless exercise, but perhaps you could suspend your disbelief for a moment and tell us how you would do it, and why.

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

How in the world is such an abundantly merciful plan of salvation, that saves and redeems the entire human family except for those few who choose not to be saved, “a seriously flawed plan to redeem humans?” There are, no doubt, many critics who know in their hearts that the plan of salvation of the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is, by far, the most perfectly fair and just plan of salvation ever propounded by any of the other churches of Christendom; but in spite of the mountain of evidence to the contrary they persist in pressing on with their demonstrably false assertions because they have an anti-Mormon ax to grind that will not allow them to concede the point.

Dude, if you bother to read what I have said here and elsewhere I already have stated that I think the LDS approach to what we have after this life is the best I know of in all of Christianity.  My beef is with other issues in general and have to do with a God that thinks we need to be tested to be worthy to come back to him.  And we have to take that test having forgot all we learned for maybe billions of years. We are only given a few obscure and unprovable hints along the way. It is like going to school for years to be an attorney and then being forced to take the bar exam having forgotten everything you learned while attending  law school.

 

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In his most recent General Conference address, President Dallin H. Oaks testified that the lowest kingdom of heavenly glory, the telestial kingdom, is so marvelous and wonderful compared to life on this earth that it is beyond human comprehension. Does this sound like part of “a seriously flawed plan to save humans?’”

So? Really I doubt Pres. Oaks has ever seen the telestial kingdom so he is speculating as well.  But sure. If it is real it is better than an eternal burning in hell.  But one will still have to suffer for a thousand years or so in extreme agony (according to D&C19) before they get their "glory."

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

 

These naysayers may as well quit because they’re never going to be able to convince any fair minded person that the marvelously merciful plan of salvation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is somehow cruel and unmerciful. In large part, it was the wondrous, joy inducing Latter-Day Saint Plan of salvation that motivated me to learn of the restored gospel and join the the church 54 years ago this year, and I’ve rejoiced in the knowledge of it every day of my life since the day I was baptized in the warm waters of nearby a lake on August 22, 1970.

Like I said I think it better than the rest.  But that does not mean I find it rational or reconcilable with the problem of evil and suffering and loving benevolent God.  THe LDS GOd still seems like a cruel being to me, just not as cruel as some of the rest.

20 hours ago, teddyaware said:

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

 43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.  (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

I know the passages.

[smac97]

41 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 I did not say the statement was doctrine. 

You said: "'Salvation without exaltation is damnation' to a Latter-day Saint."

What did you mean when you said "to a Latter-day Saint"?

41 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But it has been said.  And I heard it frequently growing up.  

I did not.  And it's not doctrine.  And yet you attribute it to the Latter-day Saints.

-Smac

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Well now that's the 64K dollar question. The boards have touched on this before though I believe there is still much more to be said and explored.

I would first rephrase your question thusly - "What is the eternal state of a person who does not ever accept Christ's doctrine and ordinances?"  If you were still a believer how might you answer that?

Were I believer I would likely answer it like you might. But I asked the question. So I am just looking for other's throughts.

[let’s roll]

I understand the statement.

Without being exalted one does not have the blessing of eternal increase.  The absence of eternal increase can be characterized as a form of damnation.  I understand damnation to encompass all the ways which a child of God who is not exalted differs from an exalted child of God, i.e., the dam in damnation is the inability to receive the blessings of exaltation, including eternal increase.

 

[teddyaware]

41 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well we disagree.

 

It attempts to answer those question sure. So?  That does not make the answers Mormonism provides necessarily compelling or rational.  But I have said many time in this hboard, and I think even on this thread, that I do find the ideas presented in D&C 76 much more compelling of a scenario and the afterlife than the rest of Christianity. It seems more fair and kind.  But that does not mean I find it rational.

I said:  "And you do it to make it work in your understanding based on your belief that Mormonism if God's true religion."  

What I mean is that Calm speculations are framed by her belief in Mormonism's doctrine and she is trying to fit answers in that paradigm.

 

Well humans are really good at taking all sorts of irrational beliefs and trying to find answers that fit those irrational beliefs and then calling it common sense.

You seem to forget I am as aware of Mormonism and it's doctrines as you are so your conclusion about what I "need to take to account" is flawed because I already have.

The Book of Mormon provides a compelling reason why unbelievers esteem the perfectly logical, reasonable, just, merciful, glorious and love inspired plan of salvation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be flawed and deficient.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

Those who are expending a great deal of time and effort in repeated attempts to persuade intractable unbelievers to awake from the sleep of death to enable them appreciate the wonderful and glorious Latter-Day Saint plan of salvation need to understand that those who have intentionally banished the illuminating Spirit of God from their lives are spiritually incapable of comprehending and appreciating the knowledge and wisdom of God. It’s like asking a man blind from birth to imagine the color purple.

Well intended individuals may employ every line of sound reasoning in the hope of finally being persuasive enough to change hardened hearts and minds, but these efforts of intellect will never work because the only thing that can enable the fallen human mind to grasp the truths of eternity is to come unto Christ to seek his forgiveness with a broken heart and a contrite spirit; it’s only then that the things of God will finally be understood and appreciated. This means that those bitter unbelievers who refuse to come unto Christ in the depths of humility are doomed to act out their own personal version ‘Groundhog  Day’ until incessant suffering leads them to the faith and humility needed to finally break the spiritual logjam. I am exiting this rhetorical hampster wheel to nowhere.

 

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Well, yeah, I agreed with that sentiment waaaay back in my response to you on Page 18.  It's so self-evidently obvious that I called it tautological.  The very definition of conversion requires for things to change, to be converted.  

Perhaps I misread your preface when you used the phrase "pray do tell us," as being doubtful or sarcastic.  With that phrase at the lead of your question, it sounded to me like you doubted that there were ANY truths in Islam or Catholicism that a potential convert could confidently carry with them into the future.  If I misread your tone, I apologize.  Seems like a common hazard in online discussion.

No not sarcastic so thank you.

20 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I don't feel the need to defend a statement that lacks all scriptural support, and is the opposite of what apostles and prophets have consistently taught for decades. But luckily for me, I need neither to embrace nor defend a statement said by one apostle one time during a BYU speech and can be found nowhere on the Gospel Library app or on LDS.org (as far as I can tell, though I am open to correction).  

 

 

That is fine. I just shared it because it was once a fairly common sentiment.  But here are some resources where the statement has been used:

 

Quote

 

What Is Salvation?

When I was a boy, a little saying that we learned in our ward went like this: “To Latter-day Saints, salvation without exaltation is damnation.” And I’ve never forgotten that. The Christian world as a whole does not give much thought to heaven and what will happen after this life. I’ve talked to many Christians, and about all they think about is to be saved, but they don’t know what they mean by being saved. I sat in the study of Peter Marshall, who at the time of his death was the chaplain of the United States Senate, and he said, “A person can be saved just like that,” and snapped his finger.

I said, “I’ve never thought it was quite that easy myself, Doctor Marshall.”

Now, when you tie them down to what they mean by being saved, about all they can think of is to escape eternal burning. They think that if they’re not saved they’re going to burn in that fire that never ends, and so forth.

I’ve talked to them. Back in South Carolina, at the close of a conference meeting, I was invited to go with the missionaries into the home of a minister, and the leader of the group said to this minister, “President Richards answered the question we were discussing.”

“That so?” he said. “What did he say?”

The district president turned to me and said, “Brother Richards, you tell him.”

“Well,” I said, “I’d be glad to do that, but I’d lots rather tell him why he ought to join the Mormon Church.”

The minister said, “Well, I’d like you to tell me that, but could I ask you one question before you do?”

“Certainly,” I said. “What is it?”

He said, “Can a man be saved before he dies or does he have to die before he is saved?”

Down in the South where I labored they all think they’re saved. And you know these preachers that gather the multitudes in. All you have to do is to acknowledge that Jesus is your Savior and then you’re saved. So when the minister asked me that question I said, “Now, if you’ll tell me what you mean by being saved, I’ll answer your question.” He thought a minute, and he went red in the face, and I knew he was embarrassed with about eight Mormon missionaries sitting right there, and I said, “I’ll tell you what we believe. We believe that we were saved before we were born. If we hadn’t been, we would have been cast out with Satan and a third of the hosts of heaven. We believe that we might be saved every day that we live, for when we learn a principle of truth and we obey that principle we’re saved from the consequences of a broken law. We believe that we might be saved every day after we die. To a Latter-day Saint,” I said, “salvation is a process and not an end.” And I quoted the words of the Prophet Joseph where he said that a man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge.

Now, the Lord might forgive us, as these preachers tell us, if we believe in Jesus Christ; but he can’t reward us for what we haven’t done just because we acknowledge the Savior as our only Savior. And so you follow the prophecies in the scriptures of the things that are to transpire. You remember that when John was banished upon the Isle of Patmos he saw the new heaven and the new earth—when “there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away”; and when we should no more need the sun by day or the moon by night, because the glory of God would be upon the earth; when no man would say, “Know ye the Lord?” for every man would walk in the light of the Lord, his God. (See Revelation 21:4, 23–24.) And then he “saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened. . . and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works” (Revelation 20:12). Now, that isn’t just an acknowledgment; that’s the things that have to be written up to our credit, that we be lifters and not just leaners. And then he said, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.” But they shall become kings and priests unto the most high God and shall rule and reign with him forever (Revelation 20:6).

Think of that. That doesn’t sound like sitting around and playing a violin or a harp forever. And that’s about all that the ordinary Christian can think of for salvation. I think it would become a little monotonous; and furthermore, as far as I’m concerned, I’m off on the wrong foot if that’s what heaven is, because I don’t know one note from another. And I’ll have to start all over again.

Can you imagine sitting and playing a harp forever and forever? As one man put it, “For the first million years he wants to look at the face of the Savior.” (Now don’t think that I’m sacrilegious.) And then he said for the next ten minutes he wanted to look at his wife, and then he wanted to look at the Savior for the rest of eternity.

Now, it seems to me that anyone with common sense ought to realize that a person has a greater destiny than anything like that. This life ought to be a preparation for steps forward and upward in achievement and accomplishment that we’ve never dreamed of here in this life, and that’s what my faith is.

And then take the parable of the talents. To the one that had received five talents and to the other that had received two the Lord said, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord” (Matthew 25:21). That doesn’t sound like sitting around and twiddling your thumbs and looking at something forever, does it? He’ll make us ruler over many things. What are we going to rule over? These are things we’ll find out, and this is why we have this eternal principle of the eternal duration of the marriage covenant.

I feel sorry for people who don’t understand these eternal truths. They are the truths we want you young people to understand, so that you’ll make no mistakes when you marry and will be sealed by the power of the holy priesthood under the new and everlasting covenant so that you can be prepared for that glory.

Why do we have the three degrees of glory if we only have to believe on the Savior in order to be saved? And when we’re saved, which one of those glories are we going to go to? You see, they don’t understand. That’s the way people’s minds are blinded by the leaders of men. That’s why Isaiah saw that because they teach for doctrine the precepts of men the Lord would proceed to bring forth a marvelous work and a wonder, which would cause the wisdom of their wise men to perish. They don’t understand these things.

Now, I have no objections to preaching that one must acknowledge that Jesus is the Savior, but it takes more than that. You remember when they came to John the Baptist to be baptized of him, he saw that they hadn’t changed their lives. He said, “O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham” (Matthew 3: 7–9). You see, John understood that it took more than just an acknowledgment. Jesus said that if the blind lead the blind they fall into the ditch together. He didn’t say that they would be saved together, but that they would fall into the ditch together. And so it’s necessary that we have some conception of what awaits us and why we should prepare for i

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/legrand-richards/heaven-doesnt-matter/

 

 

 

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I hold MiserereNobis in high regard, as he (?) is knowledgeable about Catholicism and offers a welcome (and very civil) "outsider's" perspective on our faith.

That said, his perspective is limited by the fact that he is only speaking speculatively.  In my experience, those who join the Church of Jesus Christ from being an observant member of another faith tradition typically find plenty of commonality.  That's not to deny the difficulties inherent in leaving some things behind, and/or altering those things they are bringing with them.  But the ones who seem most adept at managing the transition are those who have "caught the vision" of what the Church of Jesus Christ claims to be.

Well sure.  And in that "caught the vision conversion" they leave a lot behind. It's really not what the quote by President Hinckley describes.

20 hours ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if @Raingirl might be willing to chime on this.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that.  Some transitions are difficult, some are not.  

Thanks,

-Smac

And I did not say all were difficult.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

You said: "'Salvation without exaltation is damnation' to a Latter-day Saint."

What did you mean when you said "to a Latter-day Saint"?

I meant the same thing LeGrand Richards meant when he said it.

 

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I did not.

So?  I did.  Just because you did not hear it does not mean it was not said.

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 

 And it's not doctrine.

I never said it was.  Do you realize how obtuse you are?  Good lord you argue EVERY JOT AND TITTLE.

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 

  And yet you attribute it to the Latter-day Saints.

-Smac

It was said to Latter-day Saints by an apostle and more than once.

And of course Mormonism is fill of thing that were said, taught, believed that are not tossed under the bus and back pedaled away from .  It seems quite common. Especially among apologists.

Edited January 26 by Teancum

[Teancum]

25 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The Book of Mormon provides a compelling reason why unbelievers esteem the perfectly logical, reasonable, just, merciful, glorious and love inspired plan of salvation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be flawed and deficient.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

Those who are expending a great deal of time and effort in repeated attempts to persuade intractable unbelievers to awake from the sleep of death to enable them appreciate the wonderful and glorious Latter-Day Saint plan of salvation need to understand that those who have intentionally banished the illuminating Spirit of God from their lives are spiritually incapable of comprehending and appreciating the knowledge and wisdom of God. It’s like asking a man blind from birth to imagine the color purple.

Well intended individuals may employ every line of sound reasoning in the hope of finally being persuasive enough to change hardened hearts and minds, but these efforts of intellect will never work because the only thing that can enable the fallen human mind to grasp the truths of eternity is to come unto Christ to seek his forgiveness with a broken heart and a contrite spirit; it’s only then that the things of God will finally be understood and appreciated. This means that those bitter unbelievers who refuse to come unto Christ in the depths of humility are doomed to act out their own personal version ‘Groundhog  Day’ until incessant suffering leads them to the faith and humility needed to finally break the spiritual logjam. I am exiting this rhetorical hampster wheel to nowhere.

 

Yaaaaawwwwn....🙄

 

See ya!😉

[smac97]

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

I think the Plan of Salvation is a fascinating, and quite rational, summary of God's plan for us. 

Well we disagree.

I think I can defend and advance the Plan of Salvation using non-conclusory means.  I don't see you doing the same.  You just jump to the end and state, as a foregone conclusion, with no explanation, that the Plan of Salvation is "seriously flawed."

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

It touches on all the Big Questions.  Who are we?  Where did we come from?  What is our relationship to God?  What are His attributes?  What is the role of Jesus Christ in our lives?  If God exists, why does He allow evil and suffering in the world?  Why are we here, and what should we do and not do while on this earth?  Will we continue to exist after we die?  Will our decisions in this life affect us in the Hereafter?  Where are we going?  What doe God intend for us?

It attempts to answer those question sure. So? 

The Plan of Salvation, as a doctrinal concept, provides reasonable, understandable and coherent (though not complete in all the details) answers to the Big Questions.  And those answers are not only satisfying, but edifying, and hopeful, and uplifting, and exciting, and enervating.  It provides meaning and purpose and direction in our lives.  It provides a rationale for us to live virtuous and upstanding lives, to look to Christ as the source of our salvation, to strive to keep his commandments, to repent when we fail to do so, to serve others, to form and raise and nurture families.  I think Pres. Hinckley put it well:

Quote

Following the renovation of the Mesa Arizona Temple some years ago, clergy of other religions were invited to tour it on the first day of the open house period. Hundreds responded. In speaking to them, I said we would be pleased to answer any queries they might have. Among these was one from a Protestant minister.

Said he: “I’ve been all through this building, this temple which carries on its face the name of Jesus Christ, but nowhere have I seen any representation of the cross, the symbol of Christianity. I have noted your buildings elsewhere and likewise find an absence of the cross. Why is this when you say you believe in Jesus Christ?”

I responded: “I do not wish to give offense to any of my Christian colleagues who use the cross on the steeples of their cathedrals and at the altars of their chapels, who wear it on their vestments, and imprint it on their books and other literature. But for us, the cross is the symbol of the dying Christ, while our message is a declaration of the Living Christ.”

He then asked: “If you do not use the cross, what is the symbol of your religion?”

I replied that the lives of our people must become the most meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship.

I hope he did not feel that I was smug or self-righteous in my response. Our position at first glance may seem a contradiction of our profession that Jesus Christ is the key figure of our faith. The official name of the Church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We worship Him as Lord and Savior. The Bible is our scripture. We believe that the prophets of the Old Testament who foretold the coming of the Messiah spoke under divine inspiration. We glory in the accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John setting forth the events of the birth, ministry, death, and Resurrection of the Son of God, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. Like Paul of old, we are “not ashamed of the gospel of [Jesus] Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation” (Rom. 1:16). And like Peter, we affirm that Jesus Christ is the only name “given among men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

The Book of Mormon, which we regard as the testament of the New World, setting forth the teachings of prophets who lived anciently in the Western Hemisphere, testifies of Him who was born in Bethlehem of Judea and who died on the hill of Calvary. To a world wavering in its faith, the Book of Mormon is another and powerful witness of the divinity of the Lord. Its very preface, written by a prophet who walked the Americas a millennium and a half ago, categorically states that it was written “to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.”

And in our book of modern revelation, the Doctrine and Covenants, He has declared Himself in these certain words: “I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world” (D&C 19:1).

In light of such declarations, in view of such testimony, well might many ask, as my minister friend in Arizona asked, if you profess a belief in Jesus Christ, why do you not use the symbol of His death, the cross of Calvary?

To which I must first reply that no member of this Church must ever forget the terrible price paid by our Redeemer, who gave His life that all men might live—the agony of Gethsemane, the bitter mockery of His trial, the vicious crown of thorns tearing at His flesh, the blood cry of the mob before Pilate, the lonely burden of His heavy walk along the way to Calvary, the terrifying pain as great nails pierced His hands and feet, the fevered torture of His body as He hung that tragic day, the Son of God crying out, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34).

This was the cross, the instrument of His torture, the terrible device designed to destroy the Man of Peace, the evil recompense for His miraculous work of healing the sick, of causing the blind to see, of raising the dead. This was the cross on which He hung and died on Golgotha’s lonely summit.

We cannot forget that. We must never forget it, for here our Savior, our Redeemer, the Son of God, gave Himself, a vicarious sacrifice for each of us. But the gloom of that dark evening before the Jewish Sabbath, when His lifeless body was taken down and hurriedly laid in a borrowed tomb, drained away the hope of even His most ardent and knowing disciples. They were bereft, not understanding what He had told them earlier. Dead was the Messiah, in whom they believed. Gone was their Master, in whom they had placed all of their longing, their faith, their hope. He who had spoken of everlasting life, He who had raised Lazarus from the grave, now had died as surely as all men before Him had died. Now had come the end to His sorrowful, brief life. That life had been as Isaiah had long before foretold: He was “despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. … He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him” (Isa. 53:3, 5). Now He was gone.

We can only speculate on the feelings of those who loved Him as they pondered His death during the long hours of the Jewish Sabbath, the Saturday of our calendar.

Then dawned the first day of the week, the Sabbath of the Lord as we have come to know it. To those who came to the tomb, heavy with sorrow, the attending angel declared, “Why seek ye the living among the dead?” (Luke 24:5).

“He is not here: … he is risen, as he said” (Matt. 28:6).

Here was the greatest miracle of human history. Earlier He had told them, “I am the resurrection, and the life” (John 11:25). But they had not understood. Now they knew. He had died in misery and pain and loneliness. Now, on the third day, He arose in power and beauty and life, the firstfruits of all who slept, the assurance for men of all ages that “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

On Calvary He was the dying Jesus. From the tomb He emerged the Living Christ. The cross had been the bitter fruit of Judas’s betrayal, the summary of Peter’s denial. The empty tomb now became the testimony of His divinity, the assurance of eternal life, the answer to Job’s unanswered question: “If a man die, shall he live again?” (Job 14:14).

Having died, He might have been forgotten, or, at best, remembered as one of many great teachers whose lives are epitomized in a few lines in the books of history.

Now, having been resurrected, He became the Master of life. Now, with Isaiah, His disciples could sing with certain faith, “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isa. 9:6).

Fulfilled were the expectant words of Job: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

“And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

“Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me” (Job 19:25–27).

Well did Mary cry, “Rabboni; which is to say, Master” (John 20:16) when first she saw the risen Lord, for Master now He was in very deed, Master not only of life, but of death itself. Gone was the sting of death, broken the victory of the grave.

The fearful Peter was transformed. Even the doubtful Thomas declared in soberness and reverence and realism, “My Lord and my God” (John 20:28). “Be not faithless, but believing” (John 20:27) were the unforgettable words of the Lord on that marvelous occasion.

There followed appearances to many, including, as Paul records, “above five hundred brethren at once” (1 Cor. 15:6).

And in the Western Hemisphere were other sheep of whom He had spoken earlier. And the people there “heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; … and it said unto them:

“Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

“… And behold, they saw a Man descending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them. …

“And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

“Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified [should] come into the world. …

“Arise and come forth unto me” (3 Ne. 11:3, 6–10, 14).

Then follow in this beautiful account many words of the ministry of the resurrected Lord among the people of ancient America.

And now finally there are modern witnesses, for He came again to open this dispensation, the dispensation of the prophesied fulness of times. In a glorious vision, He—the resurrected, living Lord—and His Father, the God of heaven, appeared to a boy prophet to begin anew the Restoration of ancient truth. There followed a veritable “cloud of witnesses” (Heb. 12:1), and he who had been the recipient of the First Vision—Joseph Smith, the modern prophet—declared with words of soberness:

“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—

“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).

To which may be added the witness of millions who, by the power of the Holy Spirit, have borne and now bear solemn testimony of His living reality. That testimony has been their comfort and their strength.

For instance, I think of a friend I came to know in Vietnam during times of great trouble in his land. He was a man of quiet and transcendent faith in God, our Eternal Father, and in His Son, the Living Christ. Well do I recall hearing him sing, with deep conviction,

When through the deep waters I call thee to go,

The rivers of sorrow shall not thee o’erflow,

For I will be with thee, thy troubles to bless,

And sanctify to thee thy deepest distress.

(“How Firm a Foundation,” Hymns, no. 85)

And so, because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of His death as the symbol of our faith. But what shall we use? No sign, no work of art, no representation of form is adequate to express the glory and the wonder of the Living Christ. He told us what that symbol should be when He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

As His followers, we cannot do a mean or shoddy or ungracious thing without tarnishing His image. Nor can we do a good and gracious and generous act without burnishing more brightly the symbol of Him whose name we have taken upon ourselves. And so our lives must become a meaningful expression, the symbol of our declaration of our testimony of the Living Christ, the Eternal Son of the Living God.

“The purpose of the gospel is … to make bad men good and good men better, and to change human nature.”—President David O. McKay, in the film Every Member a Missionary, as quoted by Elder Franklin D. Richards in Conference Report, Oct. 1965.

The Plan of Salvation has, as both its objective and - when earnestly enacted - its effect - is to make bad men good and good men better.  

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

That does not make the answers Mormonism provides necessarily compelling or rational. 

This is something of a pivot.  My comments were responsive to your assertion that the Plan of Salvation is "seriously flawed."  Now you are saying that it is not "necessarily compelling or rational."  Reasonable minds can disagree about all sorts of things, so I will concede the caveat of "necessarily."  As a practical matter, however, I think the answers to the Big Questions provided via the Plan of Salvation are quite compelling and rational.  Your unadorned and conclusory say-so to the contrary doesn't help those who do not share your perspective understand it.

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But I have said many time in this board, and I think even on this thread, that I do find the ideas presented in D&C 76 much more compelling of a scenario and the afterlife than the rest of Christianity.

This is also a pivot.  I was speaking of the Plan of Salvation on its own merits, not whether it is "much more compelling of a scenario ... {as described by} the rest of Christianity."

But if we are doing a comparison, I find the concept of exaltation/theosis to be very profound.  In fact, I cannot comprehend of a concept more - as you put it - "compelling" than becoming like Heavenly Father.  

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It seems more fair and kind. 

I agree that the Plan of Salvatio nis "fair and kind."

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

But that does not mean I find it rational.

That depends, I suppose, on what you mean by "rational."  In an expansive sense, where matters of faith can be accepted on faith (as opposed to strictly empirical data, testing, etc.), I find the Plan of Salvation to be quite rational.  Human beings make decisions all the time in this "expansive" framework of rationality.  Most of biggest and best decisions I have made in life can be so characterized.  So even though I am an attorney by trade and eat, drink and breathe legal concepts about "rationality" on a daily basis, I am quite happy to review, accept, and act in accordance with the Plan of Salvation.  It makes enough sense to me, it is sufficiently "rational," for my needs.  Moreover, I have seen its fruits, and they are good.

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

"Common Sense" sure seems to be a malleable thing when we want it to be.

Well humans are really good at taking all sorts of irrational beliefs and trying to find answers that fit those irrational beliefs and then calling it common sense.

Human beings can talk themselves into all sorts of bad ideas, but they can also talk themselves out of all sorts of good ideas.  And both processes can lay claim to be based on "common sense."

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

In your apparent denunciation of God as "a cruel being" (or in your denunciation of the Church's teachings about His character, attributes, motives, etc.), you need to account for the Telestial Kingdom, and the characterization in D&C 76:89 of its glory as "surpass{ing} all understanding."

You seem to forget I am as aware of Mormonism and it's doctrines as you are

I am aware that you are aware, yet you are nevertheless characterizing God as "a cruel being," with no particular assessment of the Plan of Salvation, including the reality that its least kingdom of glory "surpasses all understanding."  Kinda hard to square that with your characterization.

46 minutes ago, Teancum said:

so your conclusion about what I "need to take to account" is flawed because I already have.

You haven't presented it here, though.

Thanks,

-Smac

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Dude, if you bother to read what I have said here and elsewhere I already have stated that I think the LDS approach to what we have after this life is the best I know of in all of Christianity.  My beef is with other issues in general and have to do with a God that thinks we need to be tested to be worthy to come back to him.  And we have to take that test having forgot all we learned for maybe billions of years. We are only given a few obscure and unprovable hints along the way. It is like going to school for years to be an attorney and then being forced to take the bar exam having forgotten everything you learned while attending  law school.

 

So? Really I doubt Pres. Oaks has ever seen the telestial kingdom so he is speculating as well.  But sure. If it is real it is better than an eternal burning in hell.  But one will still have to suffer for a thousand years or so in extreme agony (according to D&C19) before they get their "glory."

Like I said I think it better than the rest.  But that does not mean I find it rational or reconcilable with the problem of evil and suffering and loving benevolent God.  THe LDS GOd still seems like a cruel being to me, just not as cruel as some of the rest.

I know the passages.

I was about to hit send on a message I composed for you that would have finally answered all your question in a way that even cynical, bitter critics of the church could at least intellectually help you to understant

 

 

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I remember hearing it some in my youth in my wards.  I didn’t understand exactly what it meant at the time, but as a young teen it came across as a slogan for overachievers, first place winner or last place loser….no other options.  That interpretation I didn’t feel that bad about as I see exaltation well within the reach of any who desire it, God being both merciful and the perfect teacher/coach.  When I learned what it actually meant, that any separation from God no matter how minor was viewed as damnation, no matter if one got to the threshold of the exaltation door and hesitate and said ‘this will be my place, I can welcome and support and learn from those who take the further steps, but I am not ready for that yet’…the idea that this person whose eyes and heart were focused on exaltation, but felt he was not yet ready to be a full part of it would be viewed as damned as those who were running as fast and as far from the threshold of exaltation to get to their warm and cozy domain of outer darkness just didn’t make sense to me and feels like it is rewriting the Plan of Salvation as God’s version is for wimps and they want a tough guy one.

Well I heard it enough that the idea stuck. @smac97has a propensity for seemingly diminishing anything he has not experienced in his journey in Mormonism.  I heard it repeated. I cannot say where.  But I recalled it enough off the top of my head 52 years later and that it was Legrand Richards who said it.  Is the quote published elsewhere in LDS official sources. I do not know and I do not care.  I never said it was doctrine.  I simply referred to it.  But it was part of my experience with Mormonism and stuck in my mind here and there. I did not dwell on it.  But it was there.  

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I was about to hit send on a message I composed for you that would have finally answered all your question in a way that even cynical, bitter critics of the church could at least intellectually help you to understant

 

 

Feel free to post it.

[teddyaware]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Feel free to post it.

I was about to hit send on a message I carefully composed for you that would have finally answered all your question in a way that you’d at least be able to intellectually understand. But I decided it would be best to not post the message because you’d then be left without excuse and that wouldn’t be a good thing. The following words of Alma will help explain why I thought it best to remain silent

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. (Alma 12)

‘By the way, it’s Doctrine and Covenants 76 that testifies the glory of the telestial kingdom in beyond human comprehension. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The Book of Mormon provides a compelling reason why unbelievers esteem the perfectly logical, reasonable, just, merciful, glorious and love inspired plan of salvation of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to be flawed and deficient.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

Those who are expending a great deal of time and effort in repeated attempts to persuade intractable unbelievers to awake from the sleep of death to enable them appreciate the wonderful and glorious Latter-Day Saint plan of salvation need to understand that those who have intentionally banished the illuminating Spirit of God from their lives are spiritually incapable of comprehending and appreciating the knowledge and wisdom of God. It’s like asking a man blind from birth to imagine the color purple.

Well intended individuals may employ every line of sound reasoning in the hope of finally being persuasive enough to change hardened hearts and minds, but these efforts of intellect will never work because the only thing that can enable the fallen human mind to grasp the truths of eternity is to come unto Christ to seek his forgiveness with a broken heart and a contrite spirit; it’s only then that the things of God will finally be understood and appreciated. This means that those bitter unbelievers who refuse to come unto Christ in the depths of humility are doomed to act out their own personal version ‘Groundhog  Day’ until incessant suffering leads them to the faith and humility needed to finally break the spiritual logjam. I am exiting this rhetorical hampster wheel to nowhere.

 

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus  is the Christ."

But man, if you don't knees or a tongue, look out. 

God is a meanie

(Sarcasm)

Only those who have a full understanding of Christ and still deny it get outer darkness. They are eligible for outer darkness if and only if they have a full testimony, knowing Christ face to face AND THEN DENYING IT, to be in Outer Darkness, NOT your ordinary "heart hardener".

Yes, clearly those with intentionally hardened hearts receive a "lesser portion", of course, but that means they never fully understoodd it.

They never even have enough testimony to be fully able to reject it.

I think your position might be a bit of a "Catch 22"

 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

I was about to hit send on a message I carefully composed for you that would have finally answered all your question in a way that you’d at least be able to intellectually understand. But I decided it would be best to not post the message because you’d then be left without excuse and that wouldn’t be a good thing. The following words of Alma will help explain why I thought it best to remain silent

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him. (Alma 12)

‘By the way, it’s Doctrine and Covenants 76 that testifies the glory of the telestial kingdom in beyond human comprehension. 

Yea these are nice thought stopping "scriptures."  And it give the believer a sense of being special and of having superior insight and understanding.  Meh...

[Teancum]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus  is the Christ."

But man, if you don't knees or a tongue, look out. 

God is a meanie

(Sarcasm)

Well sort of kind of.  A megalomaniac as well.  BEND THE KNEE or SUFFER! Sounds like one of the bad Game of Throne Kings.

 

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Only those who have a full understanding of Christ and still deny it get outer darkness. They are eligible for outer darkness if and only if they have a full testimony, knowing Christ face to face AND THEN DENYING IT, to be in Outer Darkness, NOT your ordinary "heart hardener".

Yes, clearly those with intentionally hardened hearts receive a "lesser portion", of course, but that means they never fully understoodd it.

They never even have enough testimony to be fully able to reject it.

I think your position might be a bit of a "Catch 22"

 

 

Edited January 26 by Teancum

[smac97]

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus  is the Christ."

Well sort of kind of.  A megalomaniac as well.  BEND THE KNEE or SUFFER! Sounds like one of the bad Game of Throne Kings.

Where are you getting the "or suffer" bit?

Thanks,

-Smac