Mississippi Bishop Resigns from the Pulpit

[Teancum]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Where are you getting the "or suffer" bit?

Thanks,

-Smac

Read your scriptures. Start with D&C 19.

[Stormin' Mormon]

A somewhat off-topic musing, though it ties into things that were briefly touched upon several pages back.

I recently started the final season of the Netflix original series, "The Crown," which is a brilliant (if somewhat fictionalized) account of the life of Queen Elizabeth II from her coronation in 1952, all the way through the 2000s.  Not only is it a fantastic show, with outstanding casting, acting, and writing, it has also provided me with a glimpse into a world that's completely foreign to any I've known before.

As I was watching my episode today (I'm anti-binge, and only watch one episode per week, the way God intended), I was musing about the arc that certain themes have taken across the show's six-season run.  And I had some musings that, as I said above, tie back into some of the commentary made here about the Bishop in Mississippi.  

"The Crown" is a deep dive into the double-edge sword of institutionalism.  The front half of the series explores how human relationships can become warped or deformed when the needs of an institution are placed above the needs of the individuals who serve those institutions.  But then the back half of the show explores the chaos that can ensue when personal agendas supplant the agenda of the institution and the damage that can then be inflicted upon the society that has relied upon that institution for order and stability.  

So, the tie-in to our present discussion:

Several pages back, one poster argued that the Bishop in Mississippi deserved to use the institution (the LDS Church) as a platform for his personal agenda as a reward for his long years of service to the institution. Another poster pushed back against that view, asserting that individuals have no right to co-opt the resources of an institution to express their personal views, and that to do so was dishonest and duplicitous. The first poster is an example of the Charles and Diana arcs in the latter half of the show; the latter poster exemplifies the Elizabeth and Phillip arcs in the front half.  

Personally, I am an institutionalist, and hold to the opinion that when I wear the mantle of an institution (be it my Church, my employer, or any other organization that has reposed its trust in me), I am essentially an avatar of that institution and have no right to speak any personal opinion or advance any personal view.  I would go even further, though, and posit that the weakening of the institutionalist mindset is responsible for many of the ills in modern society.  Too often, people who attain leadership positions within an institution (be it in government, in academia, in churches, or elsewhere) betray their responsibilities by using the institution to further their own self aggrandizement.  These actions weaken the institutions, and since it is through institutions that society safeguards order and stability, a weakening of institutions will often lead to disorder and instability.

I'm not sure what my point here is, other than to share an odd convergence of thoughts that passed through my blinkered brain today.  Feel free to ignore me and continue with your previously scheduled tangents.  

Edited January 26 by Stormin' Mormon

[Stormin' Mormon]

26 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well sort of kind of.  A megalomaniac as well.  BEND THE KNEE or SUFFER! Sounds like one of the bad Game of Throne Kings.

It's more like the final scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, where Indiana could have saved Elsa if she had only let go of her desire for the grail and put her hand in his so he could pull her to safety. 

The suffering is not a consequence imposed upon the unrepentant, it is the natural consequence of sinful actions.  Christ doesn't save us from a megamaniacal God, he saves us from the consequence of our own stupidity.  

[smac97]

14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Quote

Quote

 

Quote

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus  is the Christ."

Well sort of kind of.  A megalomaniac as well.  BEND THE KNEE or SUFFER! Sounds like one of the bad Game of Throne Kings.

 

Where are you getting the "or suffer" bit?

 

Read your scriptures. Start with D&C 19.

Nothing in there about "bend the knee or suffer."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Nothing in there about "bend the knee or suffer."

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

Quote

 

4 And surely every man must ^arepent or ^bsuffer, for I, God, am ^cendless.

5 Wherefore, I ^arevoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, ^bwailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my ^cleft hand.

6 Nevertheless, it is ^anot written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written ^bendless ^ctorment.

7 Again, it is written ^aeternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this ^amystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my ^arest.

10 For, behold, the ^amystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am ^bendless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless ^cpunishment, for ^dEndless is my name. Wherefore—

11 ^aEternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the ^acommandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, t I ^asmite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your ^bsufferings be sore—how sore you know not,les how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have ^asuffered these things for all, that they ^bmight not suffer if they would ^crepent;

17 But if they would not repent they must ^asuffer even as I;

18 Which ^asuffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might ^bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink

 

Bend the knee was rhetorical flare.  But if you don't think D&C 19 says to repent (which repentance means accepting Jesus as Savior and entering a covenant with him) and follow Jesus or suffer, you have some reading comprehension issues.

[california boy]

Just off the top of my head, these are the things that I see in the Plan of Salvation, or the Plan of Happiness or Covenant Path or whatever the Church is calling it these days that are problematic..

1.  Why 3 kingdoms?  Why not just one kingdom and all of us fall somewhere along a gradient path.  Let's say, one just misses the Celestial Kingdom and ends up in the Terrestrial Kingdom.  Is he in the same place as the person who just makes it into the Terrestrial Kingdom, barely escaping the Telestial Kingdom?  Do they both get the same reward?  Is that fair?  It is like getting a A instead of a B because just one more question was wrong on a test.

Some may say that there is progression between the three kingdoms even though that is not Church doctrine.  If that is the case, then what difference does it make what kingdom you end up in?  In death, you would know way more clearly what you need to do to progress into other kingdoms and could direct your efforts in a much more efficient manner to achieve that goal.  So why not just wait and see where you fall, then move forward from that point??

Some say that progression is faster on earth than after we die.  Not sure if that is doctrine either.  But even if it is, how fair is it that less than 1% of God's children are given the plan on earth to progress, while the rest wander in darkness not having the slightest idea that they are being tested or what the test is?

2.Then there is the whole LGBT issues.  

Does God punish someone who transitions to a different gender in mortality?  Would that be fair if the person had no idea that God cared whether they lived their mortal life as a different sex than they were born with?  Just what kind of punishment would be imposed by God for such a decision.  Would they be forced to change back into whatever gender they were born on earth to?  What if that is a different gender than they had in the preexistence?

And if you are gay, then are you punished for finding a loving companion to share this life with?  What if you never knew that is something God would punish you for doing?  And what kind of punishment would you receive?  If you are born straight, then you get to live with your companion for eternity.  If you are gay, would you still be able to live with your companion for eternity?  If not, why are you punished for that?  And what would that punishment look like?  If you never want to marry a woman in the next life, are you damned forever just for being gay?  

Let's say when you die, you will magically be made straight.  Would you still be punished for choosing to be with someone of the same sex in mortality?  What would that punishment look like?  And if you are magically made straight when you die, then what is the point of trying to live a straight life while here on earth?

3. Ordinances and covenants

Does anyone really understand the importance and eternal consequences of making or breaking covenants while on earth when they make those covenants?  If you don't understand those covenants, then are you punished after this life for breaking those covenants?  Is a person under some eternal condemnation for being baptized at 8 because they think their parents want them to, and then leaving the Church because they don't really believe its teachings?  Wouldn't it be better to never make any covenants and just wait until after you die to have ordinances done for you, then with a more fully understanding, decide if you want to make such covenants?  

If it doesn't make any difference whether you make covenants in mortality or after death, then what exactly is so important about joining the Church?  And if it is of any importance, why does less that 1% of all humans born get the opportunity to join or the belief that they should join the Church in mortality?  I would call less than a 99% failure rate as being about as bad of failure one could possibly make.  Do any of you feel like that is some kind of a success plan?

4.  Families can be together forever

How does that work?  Who lives with who?  Do you live with your parents as a child forever? Or do you preside over your children forever?  If all generations are connected, then how do they all live together?  Are you eternally not allowed to be with your family if you leave the Church?  Do your children never have a father or mother for eternity if one or both parents have left the Church?  Or does that matter.  Can they rejoin in the next life?  So again, why is it important to stay on this covenant Path?  How does the family of gay couples work?  Because you have two dads or two mothers in mortality, will you never have parents in the next life? Are you just assigned random parents?  Is that even meaningful to you?

If by staying on that path, in this life, what advantages does that give you in the next life?  Is climbing up the ladder just quicker because you are doing it here on earth?  If you have eternity to work on this, does time and or speed really matter?

This is just me typing out random problems with this so called Plan of Salvation/Plan of Happiness/Covenant Path teachings of the Church.  I could go on for way more than this.  But let's start with these problems.  I know many of you are going to decide to speculate on what the answers to these questions are.  Not really looking for your opinions,

I only am interested answers that are official doctrine.  Given that no one accepted the words of LeGrand Richards, statement by apostles/leaders can not counting  as doctrine.  Please only respond to any of these from what is official doctrine.  Let's just see how good this plan actually holds up to very simple questions.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

Why 3 kingdoms?

Symbolism most likely conveying the concept of completion; imitate/adept/master; past, present, future; beginning, middle, end; birth, life, death; 3 stands for the divine; thesis, antithesis, synthesis; id, ego, superego; visually decorators say 3 items together is ideal, same with color…

There is something eminently satisfying about the number 3 in many cultures and areas of study.  
Hadn’t got to the only official part…

Hasn’t is always been taught there are three because there is one under the supervision of the Spirit, another under Christ and the third is overseen by the Father?

Edited January 27 by Calm

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Symbolism most likely conveying the concept of completion; imitate/adept/master; past, present, future; beginning, middle, end; birth, life, death; 3 stands for the divine; thesis, antithesis, synthesis; id, ego, superego; visually decorators say 3 items together is ideal, same with color…

There is something eminently satisfying about the number 3 in many cultures and areas of study.  
Hadn’t got to the only official part…

Hasn’t is always been taught there are three because there is one under the supervision of the Spirit, another under Christ and the third is overseen by the Father?

Is this doctrine or speculation?

Do you not think there are actually 3 kingdoms?

Edited January 27 by california boy

[Calm]

17 hours ago, california boy said:

Is this doctrine or speculation?

Do you not think there are actually 3 kingdoms?

The teaching that the kingdoms are overseen by the Spirit, the Son, and the Father is doctrine…..or at least that was what I was taught the scriptures below meant and that part made sense to me.
 

All else is speculation 

“Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.”

“Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.”

”These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial.”

——

I think it likely is framed that way for mortals that need divisions and hierarchy. I see no reason that perfected beings would need something like this when they would understand all the relationships involved without the need for labels or imposed separations….so my speculation is there are no kingdoms save one, the kingdom of God and the rest (where we believe we fit in for eternity) is about one’s interior state, what one accepts and does not accept and one’s abilities of perception. It is possible imo that those who we now label as members of a lower kingdom will be unable to perceive things and the fullness of others’ qualities (rather than being shunted off to a less desirable location) as well as those of the higher kingdoms do….”through a glass darkly”  refers in part to that, imo.  As we advance in God’s glory our perception becomes clearer, sharper, and deeper, but perception is not as things are, as we are until we are able to see as God sees, until our being is celestial by becoming one with the Father. 

If there are kingdoms, I highly doubt they are locations anymore than we can point to one place at this time and say “this is the kingdom of God”, more like people being in different grades but the school has no walls separating anyone from each other.

added:  there are so many aspects of our being that get spiritually developed, it makes no sense to me there are clear boundaries in that some will progress further say in charity and so can become someone of one heart with all, but may lack in trust in God and so they hold back in that area instead of being able to become one with God in allowing him control (whatever that might mean).  Maybe some have perfected obedience, but aren’t as open in love of others. How would lines be drawn in such a situation so that one is in the celestial kingdom and the other the terrestrial one?  Would God weight areas of progression and than take the adjusted score?  That just seems so mundane and mortal and petty to me.  We do this to children with our grades in school and force some to waste time because while they are advanced in one area, they are slow in another. Why would such uneven limitations exist in God’s kingdom?  Surely he would max out all that he can give each of us because of his perfect love. 

Edited January 28 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

The teaching that the kingdoms are overseen by the Spirit, the Son, and the Father is doctrine…..or at least that was what I was taught the scriptures below meant and that part made sense to me.
 

All else is speculation 

“Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.”

“Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.”

”These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial.”

——

I think it likely is framed that way for mortals that need divisions and hierarchy. I see no reason that perfected beings would need something like this when they would understand all the relationships involved without the need for labels….so my speculation is there are no kingdoms save one, the kingdom of God and the rest (where we believe we fit in for eternity) is about one’s interior state, what one accepts and does not accept and one’s abilities of perception. It is possible imo that those who we now label as members of a lower kingdom will be unable to perceive things and the fullness of others’ qualities (rather than being shunted off to a less desirable location) as well as those of the higher kingdoms do….”through a glass darkly”  refers in part to that, imo.  As we advance in God’s glory our perception becomes clearer, sharper, and deeper, but perception is not as things are, as we are until we are able to see as God sees, until our being is celestial by becoming one with the Father. 

If there are kingdoms, I highly doubt they are locations anymore than we can point to one place at this time and say “this is the kingdom of God”, more like people being in different grades but the school has no walls separating anyone from each other.

added:  there are so many aspects of our being that get spiritually developed, it makes no sense to me there are clear boundaries in that some will progress further say in charity and so can become someone of one heart with all, but may lack in trust in God and so they hold back in that area instead of being able to become one with God in allowing him control (whatever that might mean).  Maybe some have perfected obedience, but aren’t as open in love of others. How would lines be drawn in such a situation so that one is in the celestial kingdom and the other the terrestrial one?  Would God weight areas of progression and than take the adjusted score?  That just seems so mundane and mortal and petty to me.  We do this to children with our grades in school and force some to waste time because while they are advanced in one area, they are slow in another. Why would such uneven limitations exist in God’s kingdom?  Surely he would max out all that he can give each of us because of his perfect love. 

Great stuff, well said!!

The issue imo is how best to describe God's reality, in our primitive grunts of human language to us earthworm embryos, so we can possibly get a glimmer of a "reality" so far above us, it is indeed, I am sure, like us teaching earthworms.

The barrier between what we regard regard a "true" or "false" HAS to be thin to even provide a shadow of a glimpse of what can await us!

The Lord, the Word, the Logos, does his best, but gives us the "Spirit" as an additional tool, now using both language AND intuition to get it it into our thick skulls! 

Language cannot possibly capture it all.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

The teaching that the kingdoms are overseen by the Spirit, the Son, and the Father is doctrine…..or at least that was what I was taught the scriptures below meant and that part made sense to me.
 

All else is speculation 

“Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.”

“Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.”

”These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial.”

——

I think it likely is framed that way for mortals that need divisions and hierarchy. I see no reason that perfected beings would need something like this when they would understand all the relationships involved without the need for labels….so my speculation is there are no kingdoms save one, the kingdom of God and the rest (where we believe we fit in for eternity) is about one’s interior state, what one accepts and does not accept and one’s abilities of perception. It is possible imo that those who we now label as members of a lower kingdom will be unable to perceive things and the fullness of others’ qualities (rather than being shunted off to a less desirable location) as well as those of the higher kingdoms do….”through a glass darkly”  refers in part to that, imo.  As we advance in God’s glory our perception becomes clearer, sharper, and deeper, but perception is not as things are, as we are until we are able to see as God sees, until our being is celestial by becoming one with the Father. 

If there are kingdoms, I highly doubt they are locations anymore than we can point to one place at this time and say “this is the kingdom of God”, more like people being in different grades but the school has no walls separating anyone from each other.

added:  there are so many aspects of our being that get spiritually developed, it makes no sense to me there are clear boundaries in that some will progress further say in charity and so can become someone of one heart with all, but may lack in trust in God and so they hold back in that area instead of being able to become one with God in allowing him control (whatever that might mean).  Maybe some have perfected obedience, but aren’t as open in love of others. How would lines be drawn in such a situation so that one is in the celestial kingdom and the other the terrestrial one?  Would God weight areas of progression and than take the adjusted score?  That just seems so mundane and mortal and petty to me.  We do this to children with our grades in school and force some to waste time because while they are advanced in one area, they are slow in another. Why would such uneven limitations exist in God’s kingdom?  Surely he would max out all that he can give each of us because of his perfect love. 

I definitely like your beliefs in how this all works than the version the Church teaches. And thank you for at least attempting to answer one of my questions.  Love to hear your thoughts on some of the other questions that come up. 

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

The teaching that the kingdoms are overseen by the Spirit, the Son, and the Father is doctrine…..or at least that was what I was taught the scriptures below meant and that part made sense to me.
 

All else is speculation 

“Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.”

“Those who inherit terrestrial glory will “receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.”

”These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial.”

——

I think it likely is framed that way for mortals that need divisions and hierarchy. I see no reason that perfected beings would need something like this when they would understand all the relationships involved without the need for labels….so my speculation is there are no kingdoms save one, the kingdom of God and the rest (where we believe we fit in for eternity) is about one’s interior state, what one accepts and does not accept and one’s abilities of perception. It is possible imo that those who we now label as members of a lower kingdom will be unable to perceive things and the fullness of others’ qualities (rather than being shunted off to a less desirable location) as well as those of the higher kingdoms do….”through a glass darkly”  refers in part to that, imo.  As we advance in God’s glory our perception becomes clearer, sharper, and deeper, but perception is not as things are, as we are until we are able to see as God sees, until our being is celestial by becoming one with the Father. 

If there are kingdoms, I highly doubt they are locations anymore than we can point to one place at this time and say “this is the kingdom of God”, more like people being in different grades but the school has no walls separating anyone from each other.

added:  there are so many aspects of our being that get spiritually developed, it makes no sense to me there are clear boundaries in that some will progress further say in charity and so can become someone of one heart with all, but may lack in trust in God and so they hold back in that area instead of being able to become one with God in allowing him control (whatever that might mean).  Maybe some have perfected obedience, but aren’t as open in love of others. How would lines be drawn in such a situation so that one is in the celestial kingdom and the other the terrestrial one?  Would God weight areas of progression and than take the adjusted score?  That just seems so mundane and mortal and petty to me.  We do this to children with our grades in school and force some to waste time because while they are advanced in one area, they are slow in another. Why would such uneven limitations exist in God’s kingdom?  Surely he would max out all that he can give each of us because of his perfect love. 

I'm baffled by this post Calm. I'm also probably headed for dementia, or just dumb. Can you explain this to a 2 year old? Do you not believe in the the three kingdom separations? Or is it all allegory? Because I will whole handily agree with you if so.

[Rain]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

Just off the top of my head, these are the things that I see in the Plan of Salvation, or the Plan of Happiness or Covenant Path or whatever the Church is calling it these days that are problematic..

1.  Why 3 kingdoms?  Why not just one kingdom and all of us fall somewhere along a gradient path.  Let's say, one just misses the Celestial Kingdom and ends up in the Terrestrial Kingdom.  Is he in the same place as the person who just makes it into the Terrestrial Kingdom, barely escaping the Telestial Kingdom?  Do they both get the same reward?  Is that fair?  It is like getting a A instead of a B because just one more question was wrong on a test.

Some may say that there is progression between the three kingdoms even though that is not Church doctrine.  If that is the case, then what difference does it make what kingdom you end up in?  In death, you would know way more clearly what you need to do to progress into other kingdoms and could direct your efforts in a much more efficient manner to achieve that goal.  So why not just wait and see where you fall, then move forward from that point??

Some say that progression is faster on earth than after we die.  Not sure if that is doctrine either.  But even if it is, how fair is it that less than 1% of God's children are given the plan on earth to progress, while the rest wander in darkness not having the slightest idea that they are being tested or what the test is?

2.Then there is the whole LGBT issues.  

Does God punish someone who transitions to a different gender in mortality?  Would that be fair if the person had no idea that God cared whether they lived their mortal life as a different sex than they were born with?  Just what kind of punishment would be imposed by God for such a decision.  Would they be forced to change back into whatever gender they were born on earth to?  What if that is a different gender than they had in the preexistence?

And if you are gay, then are you punished for finding a loving companion to share this life with?  What if you never knew that is something God would punish you for doing?  And what kind of punishment would you receive?  If you are born straight, then you get to live with your companion for eternity.  If you are gay, would you still be able to live with your companion for eternity?  If not, why are you punished for that?  And what would that punishment look like?  If you never want to marry a woman in the next life, are you damned forever just for being gay?  

Let's say when you die, you will magically be made straight.  Would you still be punished for choosing to be with someone of the same sex in mortality?  What would that punishment look like?  And if you are magically made straight when you die, then what is the point of trying to live a straight life while here on earth?

3. Ordinances and covenants

Does anyone really understand the importance and eternal consequences of making or breaking covenants while on earth when they make those covenants?  If you don't understand those covenants, then are you punished after this life for breaking those covenants?  Is a person under some eternal condemnation for being baptized at 8 because they think their parents want them to, and then leaving the Church because they don't really believe its teachings?  Wouldn't it be better to never make any covenants and just wait until after you die to have ordinances done for you, then with a more fully understanding, decide if you want to make such covenants?  

If it doesn't make any difference whether you make covenants in mortality or after death, then what exactly is so important about joining the Church?  And if it is of any importance, why does less that 1% of all humans born get the opportunity to join or the belief that they should join the Church in mortality?  I would call less than a 99% failure rate as being about as bad of failure one could possibly make.  Do any of you feel like that is some kind of a success plan?

4.  Families can be together forever

How does that work?  Who lives with who?  Do you live with your parents as a child forever? Or do you preside over your children forever?  If all generations are connected, then how do they all live together?  Are you eternally not allowed to be with your family if you leave the Church?  Do your children never have a father or mother for eternity if one or both parents have left the Church?  Or does that matter.

Lot's of people had a hard time with President Nelson's "Think Celestial" talk. This was the part that I really had a hard time with:

" So, my dear brothers and sisters, how and where and with whom do you want to live forever? You get to choose."

 

If your parents, or your children, or cousins etc choose not to either join the church or choose to leave then you do NOT get to choose to live with them forever. If I leave the church that means my husband does not get to choose to be with me.

16 hours ago, california boy said:

 Can they rejoin in the next life?  So again, why is it important to stay on this covenant Path?  How does the family of gay couples work?  Because you have two dads or two mothers in mortality, will you never have parents in the next life? Are you just assigned random parents?  Is that even meaningful to you?

If by staying on that path, in this life, what advantages does that give you in the next life?  Is climbing up the ladder just quicker because you are doing it here on earth?  If you have eternity to work on this, does time and or speed really matter?

This is just me typing out random problems with this so called Plan of Salvation/Plan of Happiness/Covenant Path teachings of the Church.  I could go on for way more than this.  But let's start with these problems.  I know many of you are going to decide to speculate on what the answers to these questions are.  Not really looking for your opinions,

I only am interested answers that are official doctrine.  Given that no one accepted the words of LeGrand Richards, statement by apostles/leaders can not counting  as doctrine.  Please only respond to any of these from what is official doctrine.  Let's just see how good this plan actually holds up to very simple questions.

 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Rain said:

Lot's of people had a hard time with President Nelson's "Think Celestial" talk. This was the part that I really had a hard time with:

" So, my dear brothers and sisters, how and where and with whom do you want to live forever? You get to choose."

 

If your parents, or your children, or cousins etc choose not to either join the church or choose to leave then you do NOT get to choose to live with them forever. If I leave the church that means my husband does not get to choose to be with me.

 

I despise the "think celestial" comment from Pres Nelson. It's like when "ponderize" came out. But luckily that one bit the dust. Think celestial is now on items to be sold, or the saying. Plus for those that believe it, and may have a tough time knowing that they won't be with members of their family, as you've said here as well, is tough. 

 

Edited January 27 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well sort of kind of.  A megalomaniac as well.  BEND THE KNEE or SUFFER! Sounds like one of the bad Game of Throne Kings.

 

 

Interesting you only actually believe, apparently the "negative" side of what you were taught as a kid.

Interesting 

 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Lot's of people had a hard time with President Nelson's "Think Celestial" talk. This was the part that I really had a hard time with:

" So, my dear brothers and sisters, how and where and with whom do you want to live forever? You get to choose."

 

If your parents, or your children, or cousins etc choose not to either join the church or choose to leave then you do NOT get to choose to live with them forever. If I leave the church that means my husband does not get to choose to be with me.

 

Honestly to me, it sounds like emotional blackmail.

[Teancum]

37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Interesting you only actually believe, apparently the "negative" side of what you were taught as a kid.

Interesting 

 

Wrong I don't believe the negative or the positive.  I remember them both.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm baffled by this post Calm. I'm also probably headed for dementia, or just dumb. Can you explain this to a 2 year old? Do you not believe in the the three kingdom separations? Or is it all allegory? Because I will whole handily agree with you if so.

I believe there are varying differences of experience where those who we now label celestial have a deeper, more aware experience of what is going on around them than someone who is Telestial….like someone with 20 20 vision and perfect hearing is going to enjoy a movie much more than someone who needs major corrective glasses like myself, but who accidentally sat on their glasses before the movie started and no way to get a new pair.  And they forgot their hearing aid because they hate wearing it.  😛

I believe there are varying experiences of awareness with each other and with God in heaven.  But I am also guessing it isn’t a smooth line of separation.  Some may have Celestial  “vision” and Terrestrial “hearing” where vision stands for the experience of charity and love and hearing is a stand in for awareness of justice.  Since I believe in eternal progression, over time everyone has a chance to improve their ‘sight’ or whatever we will call the various awareness/senses they have of the universe.

And with greater awareness comes a greater ability to express and skill to manipulate….someone who can clearly see the object they will draw will be able to draw a more accurate picture than someone who sees it as a fuzzball, for example.  Someone who can see how far it is to a basket is more likely to get the ball in the basket for basketball for another example.

Think of heaven like a college.  They have freshman, sophomores, etc.  But in class you are all mingled together and no one cares what year you are as it doesn’t matter, what matters is if you are prepared for the class as in what previous classes you have or experience (you can skip beginning language classes for example if you have significant experience living the language).

I see heaven in much the same way.  We are all living together much as we do now with different experiences and abilities.  Just as now, those with different, more developed knowledge and abilities will see the world around them in more detailed fashion than those that don’t….like a highly skilled at diagnostics doctor might be able to predict what diseases and disorders his neighbours have just by looking at them where others can not.

Another way to think of it is we all have headsets on that let us hear things as well as talk to each other without others being aware of the conversation.  Telestial perception would be equivalent to just normal talking and listening where everyone has access to it if they are talking with them or standing nearby listening.  Terrestrial communication/perception would not be available to those who have Telestial awareness, but would be available to Terrestrial and Celestial while Celestial is limited to those who have access to the Celestial network.

You believe your niece who is a medium can communicate with spirits in ways most people can’t at this stage of their life, correct?  She has a gift others don’t, presumably given to her by God.  It is much the same in heaven in my view.  Those who are prepared/trained and willing to accept a more developed, more involved, more intimate form of communication and awareness of the world will be gifted by God with this awareness and those who will be uncomfortable with it will not be forced to endure it because he will withhold it from them.  As people become more and more able to be one with God, their level of awareness will grow until the time when they are fully one with God and at that point when they look around themselves, they will see, hear, and sense/feel things in the same way God does, though they may react/feel differently about those things since they are different individuals with different personalities.

The person standing next to the highly aware person may be very uncomfortable by their own knowledge that they can hide nothing from this highly aware person, but it seems like after people got used to it, it wouldn’t need to interfere because this would be after everyone was cleansed of sin, so there would be no hidden guilt and shame the Telestial individual need worry would be exposed.

Does that explain it better or just make it more confusing.

This is the way I make sense of how those in the Celestial kingdom could be fully joyous even if there are loved ones who have exercised their agency to refuse that gift of participation in the Celestial kingdom with God.  This is the only way I can see God actually being able to fulfill those two promises of forever families and respecting everyone’s agency.  It also explains why heaven could be described as having the same sociability, but also being beyond words to be able to express (because those terrestrial and celestial ways of awareness are beyond anything mortals are capable of understanding).

Edited January 28 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I despise the "think celestial" comment from Pres Nelson. It's like when "ponderize" came out. But luckily that one bit the dust. Think celestial is now on items to be sold, or the saying. Plus for those that believe it, and may have a tough time knowing that they won't be with members of their family, as you've said here as well, is tough. 

 

I don’t particularly like it, but make it more digestible when I choose to understand it as a quality of experience, such as do I want a Telestial relationship with my husband where we have a superficial relationship or a celestial relationship where we are both open to each other completely, where we understand and accept without reservation who they are and they do the same for us.

I don’t believe a family member being in the Telestial kingdom means there is no more relationship with them at that point, that just doesn’t make sense with God’s promise of forever families and pure joy of exaltation.

[Calm]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

I definitely like your beliefs in how this all works than the version the Church teaches. And thank you for at least attempting to answer one of my questions.  Love to hear your thoughts on some of the other questions that come up. 

Signal me what ones you would like my ideas about when it happens as I tend to focus on one thing and forget the rest these days.  I love opportunities to try and corral my rambling thoughts, lol.

[Ragerunner]

Has he ever come forward with the details of why he felt he had to resign? 

[smac97]

45 minutes ago, Ragerunner said:

Has he ever come forward with the details of why he felt he had to resign? 

I don't think he has.  I wonder if he will wait until the Dehlin interview to publicize his reasoning.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I believe there are varying differences of experience where those who we now label celestial have a deeper, more aware experience of what is going on around them than someone who is Telestial….like someone with 20 20 vision and perfect hearing is going to enjoy a movie much more than someone who needs major corrective glasses like myself, but who accidentally sat on their glasses before the movie started and no way to get a new pair.  And they forgot their hearing aid because they hate wearing it.  😛

I believe there are varying experiences of awareness with each other and with God in heaven.  But I am also guessing it isn’t a smooth line of separation.  Some may have Celestial  “vision” and Terrestrial “hearing” where vision stands for the experience of charity and love and hearing is a stand in for awareness of justice.  Since I believe in eternal progression, over time everyone has a chance to improve their ‘sight’ or whatever we will call the various awareness/senses they have of the universe.

And with greater awareness comes a greater ability to express and skill to manipulate….someone who can clearly see the object they will draw will be able to draw a more accurate picture than someone who sees it as a fuzzball, for example.  Someone who can see how far it is to a basket is more likely to get the ball in the basket for basketball for another example.

Think of heaven like a college.  They have freshman, sophomores, etc.  But in class you are all mingled together and no one cares what year you are as it doesn’t matter, what matters is if you are prepared for the class as in what previous classes you have or experience (you can skip beginning language classes for example if you have significant experience living the language).

I see heaven in much the same way.  We are all living together much as we do now with different experiences and abilities.  Just as now, those with different, more developed knowledge and abilities will see the world around them in more detailed fashion than those that don’t….like a highly skilled at diagnostics doctor might be able to predict what diseases and disorders his neighbours have just by looking at them where others can not.

Another way to think of it is we all have headsets on that let us hear things as well as talk to each other without others being aware of the conversation.  Telestial perception would be equivalent to just normal talking and listening where everyone has access to it if they are talking with them or standing nearby listening.  Terrestrial communication/perception would not be available to those who have Telestial awareness, but would be available to Terrestrial and Celestial while Celestial is limited to those who have access to the Celestial network.

You believe your niece who is a medium can communicate with spirits in ways most people can’t at this stage of their life, correct?  She has a gift others don’t, presumably given to her by God.  It is much the same in heaven in my view.  Those who are prepared/trained and willing to accept a more developed, more involved, more intimate form of communication and awareness of the world will be gifted by God with this awareness and those who will be uncomfortable with it will not be forced to endure it because he will withhold it from them.  As people become more and more able to be one with God, their level of awareness will grow until the time when they are fully one with God and at that point when they look around themselves, they will see, hear, and sense/feel things in the same way God does, though they may react/feel differently about those things since they are different individuals with different personalities.

The person standing next to the highly aware person may be very uncomfortable by their own knowledge that they can hide nothing from this highly aware person, but it seems like after people got used to it, it wouldn’t need to interfere because this would be after everyone was cleansed of sin, so there would be no hidden guilt and shame the Telestial individual need worry would be exposed.

Does that explain it better or just make it more confusing.

This is the way I make sense of how those in the Celestial kingdom could be fully joyous even if there are loved ones who have exercised their agency to refuse that gift of participation in the Celestial kingdom with God.  This is the only way I can see God actually being able to fulfill those two promises of forever families and respecting everyone’s agency.  It also explains why heaven could be described as having the same sociability, but also being beyond words to be able to express (because those terrestrial and celestial ways of awareness are beyond anything mortals are capable of understanding).

Thanks Calm, your examples are very helpful! The only thing I don't know is if someone in telestial can move on up to celestial. Seems there have been discussions on the board about it. And that some say you cannot progress on to the different kingdoms, but if it's like you say, it's more a mind thing or not sure how to put it, but a progression nonetheless. 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks Calm, your examples are very helpful! The only thing I don't know is if someone in telestial can move on up to celestial. Seems there have been discussions on the board about it. And that some say you cannot progress on to the different kingdoms, but if it's like you say, it's more a mind thing or not sure how to put it, but a progression nonetheless. 

There have been apostles for and against progression between the kingdoms.  And many people think of progression as linear so those who get to heaven later on can never catch up to those who got there before, so they see that as how the divisions are maintained over eternities even with eternal progression.  To me that turns heaven into a race and always having to work just to maintain one’s place in the hierarchy.

Personally I think the reaction against progression between kingdoms falls in line with the issue early Saints had that practically everyone was going to heaven and hell was temporary or why some people don’t like even sincere death bed repentance.  People don’t see it as fair that those who don’t care enough and don’t appear to sacrifice for the ultimate reward get to eventually have it, but the sacrifice and suffering that is actually needed will have to be endured by them at sometime and who knows, maybe they did it long ago in the preexistence.  Then there are the truly malicious evil where it disgusts or baffles those who try to be obedient to God and who love their neighbors (at least most of them), who are generally kind, etc as to why God would even want to give them a chance?  Take Hitler for example, does anyone get a warm fuzzy thinking after eons of repentance and trying to better, he finally progresses to where he could be exalted.  It just doesn’t sound right to a lot of people.

Edited January 28 by Calm

[bluebell]

On 1/27/2024 at 9:39 AM, Rain said:

Lot's of people had a hard time with President Nelson's "Think Celestial" talk. This was the part that I really had a hard time with:

" So, my dear brothers and sisters, how and where and with whom do you want to live forever? You get to choose."

 

 

That last time I listened to it I wondered if maybe he was referring to who in the Godhead you want to live with forever rather than who in mortality?