Mississippi Bishop Resigns from the Pulpit

[Stargazer]

16 minutes ago, Joshua said:

 

Not going to speak for @Calm, but this doesn't answer the CFR. Neither of these quotes say that we're the only ones who got it, and we're the sole source of truth. They both speak to the benefits of having the full truth (Smith), and the responsibility of having it (Hinckley), but neither say we're the only possessors of the truth.

Edited January 25 by Stargazer

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Joshua said:

will illustrate two examples of what I was taught in the church when I was growing up

I can see the ‘we are here to save the world’ interpretation from your quote and others I am aware of…the whole temple proxy work for the salvation of the dead and we can only be saved if our dead are saved speak to that as well, but that says nothing that restricts light and truth or even the saving to solely the Church and its members (though I understand why some may interpret it that way due to the mandate sentence of Pres Hinckley).  In fact, I get the complete opposite interpretation that the Church and therefore its members are the “sole receptacles” from this part of your quote:

Quote

The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same."

Why would we be embracing all truth in this manner if all truth was given solely to us?  Why would Pres Hinckley and Pres George Albert Smith suggest that there was good converts already had that they would be able to bring with them when they converted if only members were the “sole receptacles of good, truth, and light from God”?

Quote

We have not come to take away from you the truth and virtue you possess. We have come not to find fault with you nor to criticize you. We have not come here to berate you because of things you have not done; but we have come here as your brethren . . . and to say to you: “Keep all the good that you have, and let us bring to you more good, in order that you may be happier and in order that you may be prepared to enter into the presence of our Heavenly Father.”

https://rsc.byu.edu/light-truth/why-bother-other-faiths#_note-1
 

From the same link, Pres Kimball:

Quote

 “The great religious leaders of the world such as Muhammad, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.” 

Orson F. Whitney:

Quote

[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves. . . .

All down the ages men bearing the authority of the Holy Priesthood—patriarchs, prophets, apostles and others, have officiated in the name of the Lord, doing the things that he required of them; and outside the pale of their activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood, but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fulness of the Gospel, but that portion of truth that they were able to receive and wisely use.

 

There is no suggestion in the Book of Mormon that God speaks solely to members of his church, ancient and modern:

Quote

Thus the Book of Mormon enlarges the scope of our understanding of Jesus as the Savior. His ministry was not limited to the Jews of the Middle East, but extended also to America and then to the place of the lost tribes. But the Book of Mormon does not stop there. It tells us that the Lord Jesus has been active all along, in various ways, giving to every nation as much of the gospel as it could absorb and handle. This has not always been done by a personal visit, for we learn from 3 Nephi 15 that the Lord did not manifest himself personally to the gentile nations, but sent his servants to teach them. Yet the Lord has been active in one way or another among all peoples, doing for them all that he could according to their willingness, capacity, and desire to receive and to believe. Note these words from 2 Nephi 29:

Know ye not that . . . I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?. . .

Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. . . .

For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the seas, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one (2 Nephi 29:7–8, 11–14).

The prophet Alma expressed a desire to tell every nation personally about the gospel, but then realized that the Lord had made provision for that within each nation.

O that I were an angel, and could have the wish of mine heart, that I might go forth and speak with the trump of God, with a voice to shake the earth, and cry repentance unto every people!

Yea, I would declare unto every soul, as with the voice of thunder, repentance and the plan of redemption, that they should repent and come unto our God, that there might not be more sorrow upon all the face of the earth.

But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me. . . .

Why should I desire more than to perform the work to which I have been called?

Why should I desire that I were an angel, that I could speak unto all the ends of the earth?

For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have (Alma 29:1–3, 6–8).

The Book of Mormon tells us that the person we call Jesus Christ is the God of the whole world, and of all people, and has been working among all nations to the extent of their willingness and ability to receive, and in accordance with his own timetable.

https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-keystone-scripture/what-book-mormon-tells-us-about-jesus-christ

We may have the fullness of the Gospel, meaning what knowledge God has deemed necessary for mortal man to know so as to be able to return to his presence, but that is not the equivalent of all the good, truth, and light which comes from God nor does it mean the no one else has any awareness of any part of the Gospel, just that whatever that they have is incomplete.  It makes no sense to believe that the Bible has something to say about the Gospel, about God’s truth and light on the one hand and then to believe that Saints are the “sole receptacles” and “sources” of God’s good, truth, and light.

Edited January 25 by Calm

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, Joshua said:

If the Mormon church benefits from being the only church that has the "full truth" as you say, are you insinuating that other churches only have half the truth or possibly less than half?

How can the Church have the “full truth” when we believe in continuing revelation?  

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Joshua said:

I will illustrate two examples of what I was taught in the church when I was growing up. Without a shadow of a doubt, I had the impression that God had sent me to earth at this particular time, at this particular moment because I had demonstrated to him in heaven that I was the kind of person who would be able to come down to earth in the end times to defend his gospel, which is the only gospel that is trueand still alive on earth. As the second example shows, I truly believed I was here on earth to save everyone from themselves and I was going to do it with the only true and living gospel. 

 

Your quote farming is highly selective to the point of being misleading.  Here are some quotes you ought to consider, a prism through which to view your own cherry-picked citations:

Quote

 

One of the grand fundamental principles of ‘Mormonism’ is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may.”

Joseph Smith, quoted in History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 2nd ed. (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1949), 5:499.

 

Quote

 

The line of priesthood authority was broken. But mankind was not left in total darkness or completely without revelation or inspiration. The idea that with the Crucifixion of Christ the heavens were closed and that they opened in the First Vision is not true. The Light of Christ would be everywhere present to attend the children of God; the Holy Ghost would visit seeking souls. The prayers of the righteous would not go unanswered.”

 Boyd K. Packer, “The Light of Christ,” Ensign, Apr. 2005, 11.

 

Quote

 

Informed Latter-day Saints do not argue that historic Christianity lost all truth or became completely corrupt. The orthodox churches may have lost the ‘fullness’ of the gospel, but they did not lose all of it nor even most of it. Many Evangelicals caricature or overstate the actual LDS view, which is that the orthodox churches are incomplete rather than corrupt. It is their postbiblical creeds that are identified in Joseph Smith’s first vision as an ‘abomination,’ but certainly not their individual members or their members’ biblical beliefs.”

Craig L. Blomberg and Stephen E. Robinson,  How Wide the Divide? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1997), 61.

 

 

Edited January 25 by Stormin' Mormon

[Calm]

38 minutes ago, Joshua said:

If Mormons are the only people on earth who possess the complete truth, then how should the truth that is taught by other religions be stated specifically? If we were to refer to it as "half the truth," would that be sufficient? 

CFR that Saints have the whole truth.

What is continuing revelation for if we already have the complete truth?

When we don’t have a clue if we have even “half the truth”, why should we attempt to quantify what portion of truth others have?

All men have what they need or needed to have at that time and place in their lives to have to get back to the Father.  Otherwise the temple work we do for them is meaningless.  Just as other faiths and those of no faith will need time after death to receive the fullness of the Gospel and other truth of God, Saints will need a long time post death to comprehend the Endowment according to Joseph Smith (and therefore even longer to comprehend all the truth the Father has for us).

Quote

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng#aside1_p1

This one quote is in at least 14 manuals/lessons on the Church website, btw.

This suggests to me Saints currently have a very small percentage of God’s truth at this time.  We are a few steps up the ladder only.  Saints aren’t paying attention to what we are being taught if they think we have the complete truth.

PS:  I added some quotes to the earlier post about others having truth.

Edited January 25 by Calm

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Joshua said:

 

 

Joseph Smith isn't saying "If it's in Mormonism, then it's true." He is saying, "If it's true, then it is a part of Mormonism." He isn't excluding the truths from other belief systems; he is laying claim to them.

And even if he were saying the first thing (If M, then T), rules of logic indicate that a "not M" does not lead to a "not T." 

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Joshua said:

But first, can you tell me if mormonism has the fullness of the gospel, what do other churches have? 

They have what God has deemed it necessary for them to have so that their members can live good and meaningful lives.

How unjust it would be for God to restrict the knowledge of good and truth to solely one small faith that has existed for intermittently on the earth during humanity’s existence and thus condemn the rest of the world to a pretty horrible existence. 

Edited January 25 by Calm

[Stormin' Mormon]

5 minutes ago, Joshua said:

I would love to. But first, can you tell me if mormonism has the fullness of the gospel, what do other churches have? 

See my quote above, from Stephen Robinson. They didn't lose all of it [the gospel], nor even most of it.

Are there no fractions where you live? Is everything either a zero or a one?

[Calm]

Just now, Joshua said:

I don't understand what that means. Could you explain further? 

See above additions, maybe that will help, but as far as more, only after you answer the previous CFRs, including the original one that the Church has taught we are the sole receptacles and sources of God’s truth, light, and good.

[Stormin' Mormon]

4 minutes ago, Joshua said:

So other religions are followers of half truths?

Don't be moving the goal posts like that. You were asking about the fullness of the Gospel, not the fullness of the individual truths of which the gospel is comprised.  Other churches are in possession of full gospel truths; they just are not in possession of all of those gospel truths, the complete set of which makes up the "Fullness of the Gospel."  

 

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Joshua said:

I don't understand what that means. Could you explain further? 

I am unfortunately an impulsive poster and someone who continues to dwell on posts after I have posted, always coming up with something else I want to say, which leads to a lot of additions in edits.  So if something is confusing, it is probably a good idea to wait five minutes at least after I post something and then refresh to see if I have added anything.  Usually I have enough time to get an edit in before it gets read by someone I am conversing with, so I don’t have enough motivation to restrain myself from pushing “post”.

There is also a problem when using lots of quotes to support a point (which I like to do) in that I may lose what I have added in an edit if I am adding more than one quote and need to go back and forth to get the quotes and then the links because the page may automatically refresh because I have moved to another tab before I have saved all my edit.  So longer posts tend to get multiple edits, so it might be worthwhile if you are confused or see my post as an incomplete thought to go back and read for edits.

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Joshua said:

I didn't move goal post. 

You went from talking about not-the-fulness of the Gospel to talking about half-truths, as if the two were equivalent.  They are not.

2 hours ago, Joshua said:

My entire Mormon experience was believing that the devil told just enough of the truth for the purpose of convincing people to follow him instead of God. Here is how Pres. Kimball taught Mormons of my generation not to follow half truths. 

That you think this quote ISN'T about members of the Church speaks volumes of either your inattention or your hubris.  Members of the Church are just as capable of creating and developing half-truths as anyone else in the world. This quote from President Kimball comes from a message about Repentance, not a message about missionary work (in the First Presidency message in the October 1982 Ensign, since you couldn't be bothered to provide proper attribution).  Its focus is about half-truths that come bundled with temptation, not half-truths taught by other organizations. 

2 hours ago, Joshua said:

When you say that other churches are not in possession of all gospel truths, you are insinuating that they are also teaching doctrine contrary to the restored gospel, are you not?

That's a glass-half-empty way of phrasing it, yes.  But I am ALSO saying that other churches are teaching doctrines that are perfectly harmonious with the restored gospel, that they teach truths that we as members of the Church ought to embrace as fully as we do the truths that are uniquely ours.  And THAT was what kicked off this whole digression: the declaration that the LDS church is not the SOLE inheritor of all that is good and true and righteous.  The fact that other churches have even a smidgeon of that which is good and true and righteous proves you wrong on this point.  And most of us have been arguing that other churches have WAAAAAYYYYY more than a smidgeon.  They are glasses 90% percent full, not 10% empty.  

Edited January 25 by Stormin' Mormon

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Joshua said:

If the Mormon church benefits from being the only church that has the "full truth" as you say, are you insinuating that other churches only have half the truth or possibly less than half?

In principle, yes.

I'm surprised you find this worth marveling over! Ask the Pope how much truth the RCC has, and ask him to compare it to the truth that the LDS have. Although the current Pope seems to have some unusually liberal ideas compared to past popes, I know that he believes that salvation is not found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so obviously he would have to say that our church, and perhaps others as well, have less than the full truth.

As to the proportion of truth, I invite you come up with a formula for determining the percentage of truth that, say, the Roman Catholic Church, or Buddhism have, in comparison with the Church of Jesus Christ, of course. 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

We may have the fullness of the Gospel, meaning what knowledge God has deemed necessary for mortal man to know so as to be able to return to his presence, but that is not the equivalent of all the good, truth, and light which comes from God nor does it mean the no one else has any awareness of any part of the Gospel, just that whatever that they have is incomplete.  It makes no sense to believe that the Bible has something to say about the Gospel, about God’s truth and light on the one hand and then to believe that Saints are the “sole receptacles” and “sources” of God’s good, truth, and light.

I wish I could give you ten likes for your post. Thank you!

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In principle, yes.

I'm surprised you find this worth marveling over! Ask the Pope how much truth the RCC has, and ask him to compare it to the truth that the LDS have. Although the current Pope seems to have some unusually liberal ideas compared to past popes, I know that he believes that salvation is not found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, so obviously he would have to say that our church, and perhaps others as well, have less than the full truth.

As to the proportion of truth, I invite you come up with a formula for determining the percentage of truth that, say, the Roman Catholic Church, or Buddhism have, in comparison with the Church of Jesus Christ, of course. 

But do the Catholics have something like the LDS missionary program? 

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

But do the Catholics have something like the LDS missionary program? 

Not being a Catholic, and not entirely familiar with their missionary efforts, I would say that they have a missionary program, but it isn't like the LDS. We're pretty unique, and the only organization that I am aware of that has a similarly far-reaching one is the Jehovah's Witnesses. There are some Protestant denominations that focus a lot on missionary work. If @paulhadik is around (as he seems to have come back after a several year absence), perhaps he could explain his own work in this regard.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am unfortunately an impulsive poster and someone who continues to dwell on posts after I have posted, always coming up with something else I want to say, which leads to a lot of additions in edits.  So if something is confusing, it is probably a good idea to wait five minutes at least after I post something and then refresh to see if I have added anything.  Usually I have enough time to get an edit in before it gets read by someone I am conversing with, so I don’t have enough motivation to restrain myself from pushing “post”.

There is also a problem when using lots of quotes to support a point (which I like to do) in that I may lose what I have added in an edit if I am adding more than one quote and need to go back and forth to get the quotes and then the links because the page may automatically refresh because I have moved to another tab before I have saved all my edit.  So longer posts tend to get multiple edits, so it might be worthwhile if you are confused or see my post as an incomplete thought to go back and read for edits.

You and me both, I think.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

CFR that Saints have the whole truth.

What is continuing revelation for if we already have the complete truth?

When we don’t have a clue if we have even “half the truth”, why should we attempt to quantify what portion of truth others have?

All men have what they need or needed to have at that time and place in their lives to have to get back to the Father.  Otherwise the temple work we do for them is meaningless.  Just as other faiths and those of no faith will need time after death to receive the fullness of the Gospel and other truth of God, Saints will need a long time post death to comprehend the Endowment according to Joseph Smith (and therefore even longer to comprehend all the truth the Father has for us).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng#aside1_p1

This one quote is in at least 14 manuals/lessons on the Church website, btw.

This suggests to me Saints currently have a very small percentage of God’s truth at this time.  We are a few steps up the ladder only.  Saints aren’t paying attention to what we are being taught if they think we have the complete truth.

PS:  I added some quotes to the earlier post about others having truth.

Maybe you all are talking past each other. @Joshuacan speak up but maybe he means the truth and ordinances needed for salvation and exaltation.  If so then Mormonism certainly does teach that it holds the priesthood power to administer the ordinances along with the fullness of God's true doctrine..

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Joshua said:

So other religions are followers of half truths?

You really like dealing in straw men, apparently. What's a half truth in this context? Never mind.

A quibble that some non-LDS have with the Book of Mormon is that it says nothing about patriarchal blessings, endowments, temple sealings, baptism for the dead, etc., yet we say that it contains the fullness of the gospel. So that question is, what is the gospel? Joseph Smith said it best:

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it” (History of the Church, 3:30).

That is the gospel, expressed in a precis, which implies the resurrection and atonement.  The fullness of the gospel is that teaching above, in combination with the authority to administer the salvific ordinances of the gospel, which are baptism and the gift of the holy ghost. Without Christ, water and spirit baptism are empty ordinances or works with no power to save. Without water and spirit baptism, Christ's atonement cannot save an individual. As Jesus himself taught:

John 3:5 -> "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Thus the Book of Mormon teaches the gospel, as does the Bible, but only the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the authority to administer the ordinances of the gospel. So, no other church on earth has the "fullness of the gospel," as I've just defined it.

As for what proportion of the truth a given religion has, the truth includes an understanding of the nature of God. If a nominally Christian church believes in Jesus Christ as the Savior, but conceives God to be a three-in-one personage whose nature is completely outside the nature of human beings, then that nominally Christian church possesses less truth than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If the nominally Christian church believes that it is proper to baptize babies, then that church possesses less truth. As for non-Christian religions, they may teach certain principles of the gospel, such as obedience to one or more commandments of God (irrespective of whether they know who God is), so they possess a proportion of the truth. But not all of it. Far be it for me to say what percentage they have. 

Does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have ALL the truth that exists? Absolutely not. God knows far more truth than He has ever revealed to His children in mortality. But God does stand ready to reveal more to His servants. He said this, as recorded in DC 121:26

26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;

The LDS general handbook (in section 38.8.29) has this to say about other religions:

Other Faiths
Much that is inspiring, noble, and worthy of the highest respect is found in many other faiths.

The restored Church of Jesus Christ does not claim to be the sole repository of all truth.

---------------

And here I am again, intending to write a paragraph or two, and finding at the end that I have pumped out an essay.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

They have what God has deemed it necessary for them to have so that their members can live good and meaningful lives.

I find this thought uncompelling.  Why would God want to give less. It always seemed strange for me that base on LDS doctrine Jesus came to a little backwoods place to preach, atone for sin and start a church jus to have it fall into apostacy within a few decades after his death.  What was the point in that?  And why let Christianity wander and and spin off sects with no authority to administer what Mormonism calls the aging and exalting ordinances.

3 hours ago, Calm said:

How unjust it would be for God to restrict the knowledge of good and truth to solely one small faith that has existed for intermittently on the earth during humanity’s existence and thus condemn the rest of the world to a pretty horrible existence. 

Well according to Mormonism God did just that for almost 2000 years until Joseph Smith came along. At least there was a restriction of a large portion of correct knowledge for salvation.

Edited January 25 by Teancum

[MustardSeed]

I believe the correct term for how the leadership refers to other church’s legitimacy is “partial” - “partial truth” has different connotation than does “half truth”.  
“ Half truth” suggests an intentional lie.  The church does not accuse other churches of this. 

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Joshua said:

If Mormons are the only people on earth who possess the complete truth,

CFR, please, that Latter-day Saints claim to be "the only people on earth who possess the complete truth" (emphasis on the "complete" bit).

4 hours ago, Joshua said:

then how should the truth that is taught by other religions be stated specifically? If we were to refer to it as "half the truth," would that be sufficient? 

Who is this "we" you are referencing?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

That's a glass-half-empty way of phrasing it, yes.  But I am ALSO saying that other churches are teaching doctrines that are perfectly harmonious with the restored gospel, that they teach truths that we as members of the Church ought to embrace as fully as we do the truths that are uniquely ours.  And THAT was what kicked off this whole digression: the declaration that the LDS church is not the SOLE inheritor of all that is good and true and righteous.  The fact that other churches have even a smidgeon of good and truth and righteous proves you wrong on this point.  And most of us have been arguing that other churches have WAAAAAYYYYY more than a smidgeon.  They are glasses 90% percent full, not 10% empty.  

 Can you tell me what the 90% full glass that Catholicism has?  How about Islam?

[Teancum]

9 minutes ago, smac97 said:

CFR, please, that Latter-day Saints claim to be "the only people on earth who possess the complete truth" (emphasis on the "complete" bit).

What is the eternal state of a person who does not ever accept Mormonism's doctrine and ordinances?

[Stormin' Mormon]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

 Can you tell me what the 90% full glass that Catholicism has?  How about Islam?

This is a rhetorical flourish, not an analytical calculation.  Based on the quote I cited from Stephen Robinson (twice now), I was making the point that Historical Christianity has a glass that is more than half full.  I could have chosen any number between 51% and 99% to make the same point.