Vatican approves blessings for same-sex couples in landmark ruling

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I find the use of “transgression” and not “sin” an interesting choice given how “transgression” is often defined and applied in the Church.

“Serious sins” is a term used in the handbook, it may mean nothing to use transgression instead, of course.

Malum prohibits rather than malum in se? It is a nice thought but I doubt that was the intent.

[Calm]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Malum prohibits rather than malum in se? It is a nice thought but I doubt that was the intent.

I was thinking more along the lines as it might not be seen as intentional sin. Perhaps the use of transgression opens up an interpretation that those who accept same sex marriage as a relationship equivalent to opposite sex marriage are likely to not believe church teachings/standards that same sex sexual behaviour is immoral.  It is not rebellion against God in that case as they are living morally or with the standards they believe God has given (assuming they believe in God giving any such standards) nor is it an intentional immoral choice even though God’s laws are being broken.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Calm

[california boy]

12 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

No, I'm not interested in addressing a shifting goal post.  I engaged in this discussion to demonstrate that your original contention, that the church handles members of same sex marriages by excommunicating them, was based on obsolete policy or out of date information.  Now that the goal post has moved to asking me to show that the policy change was sufficiently publicized or that it resulted in a sufficiently welcoming Church are beyond the scope of my initial engagement.

Pointing to the link that Webbles posted in this very thread wasn't sufficient?  Sigh, very well.  Here it is.  A link from the Church saying that the policy has been somewhat modified.  Again, this same link can be found in Webble's post on this thread, second page, second post from the top:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/policy-changes-announced-for-members-in-gay-marriages-children-of-lgbt-parents?lang=eng:

 

Well I am not going to argue with you about this.  I have acknowledged that the policy of calling gay couples apostates has changed.  You pointed to the handbook that while excommunication is still possible for gay couples it is not mandatory like it once one.  I pointed out that there has been no broad announcement of that change and how are gay couples suppose to know about such a change if the are interested in participating as couple in the Church.  While you did post links to no longer being called apostates, you never explained how a gay couple would know about the handbook change.  

Not to worry.   I don't think either one of us thinks that the Church is actually encouraging gay couples to participate in the Church.  That was actually the point of my first post in the thread.  While the Catholic Church has made a small gesture to include gay couples into their congregations, and has never excommunicated them for being in a committed relationship, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not made that kind of gesture.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by california boy

[Stormin' Mormon]

36 minutes ago, california boy said:

While the Catholic Church has made a small gesture to include gay couples into their congregations, and has never excommunicated them for being in a committed relationship, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not made that kind of gesture.  

I have a hard time understanding what metric you are using to measure LGBTQ support and compare that between churches.    

Below are two statements about last year's Respect for Marriage Act from two different churches.  

From Church A: 

Quote

It is deeply concerning that the U.S. Senate has voted to proceed toward potential passage of the Respect for Marriage Act, which would essentially codify the Supreme Court’s ruling in Obergfell that found a constitutional right to same-sex civil marriages.  The bill is a bad deal for the many courageous Americans of faith and no faith who continue to believe and uphold the truth about marriage in the public square today. The Act does not strike a balance that appropriately respects our nation’s commitment to the fundamental right of religious liberty

From Church B: 

Quote

We believe this approach is the way forward. As we work together to preserve the principles and practices of religious freedom together with the rights of LGBTQ individuals much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding

Church A continues to fight against marriage equality laws, but makes small gestures to not alienate gay adherents, while continuing to affirm that gay couples are not eligible for the sacrament of marriage.    

Church B has largely made peace with marriage equality laws and affirmatively supports laws that protect gay individuals in employment and housing.  They have made even smaller gestures than Church A to not alienate gay adherents, but gestures nonetheless.  It too continues to affirm that God's marriage law is one-man-one-woman. 

What I don't get is why Church A (The Catholic Church) gets a pass and Church B (The LDS Church) gets the full force of your ire. I'm not arguing that the Church of Jesus Christ is especially welcoming or cuddly on the issue.  But neither is the Catholic Church.  But both of us are making efforts (small though they be) and both of us are moving in the right direction (slow though that is).   

It's fine that you have beef with the LDS Church; I don't expect us to come together and sing Kumbaya. The LDS Church has wronged you personally and the Catholic Church has not.  But from a 10,000 foot analytical perspective, I have a hard time seeing why the Catholic church isn't tarred with the same brush as the LDS Church has been. 

Statement from Church A: https://www.usccb.org/news/2022/us-bishops-chairman-religious-liberty-respect-marriage-act

Statement about Church B: https://apnews.com/article/religion-relationships-gay-rights-utah-07847f4b7e3e96d81c10a298a199b860   

Edited December 21, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[california boy]

41 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I have a hard time understanding what metric you are using to measure LGBTQ support and compare that between churches.    

Below are two statements about last year's Respect for Marriage Act from two different churches.  

From Church A: 

From Church B: 

Church A continues to fight against marriage equality laws, but makes small gestures to not alienate gay adherents, while continuing to affirm that gay couples are not eligible for the sacrament of marriage.    

Church B has largely made peace with marriage equality laws and affirmatively supports laws that protect gay individuals in employment and housing.  They have made even smaller gestures than Church A to not alienate gay adherents, but gestures nonetheless.  It too continues to affirm that God's marriage law is one-man-one-woman. 

What I don't get is why Church A (The Catholic Church) gets a pass and Church B (The LDS Church) gets the full force of your ire. I'm not arguing that the Church of Jesus Christ is especially welcoming or cuddly on the issue.  But neither is the Catholic Church.  But both of us are making efforts (small though they be) and both of us are moving in the right direction (slow though that is).   

It's fine that you have beef with the LDS Church; I don't expect us to come together and sing Kumbaya. The LDS Church has wronged you personally and the Catholic Church has not.  But from a 10,000 foot analytical perspective, I have a hard time seeing why the Catholic church isn't tarred with the same brush as the LDS Church has been. 

Statement from Church A: https://www.usccb.org/news/2022/us-bishops-chairman-religious-liberty-respect-marriage-act

Statement about Church B: https://apnews.com/article/religion-relationships-gay-rights-utah-07847f4b7e3e96d81c10a298a199b860   

If you think I was giving a pass to the Catholic Church, you are wrong.  What I was saying is that the Catholic Church has given a signal for those gay couples that they too are included as part of the church and can be blessed for being a part of that.  Perhaps it will allow some to feel like they can join in with the congregation and the Catholic Church recognizes that gay couples have a place in that congregation.

While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has given up on its crusade to prevent gay couples not in their church to be married as is their civil right under the Constitution, there is no way a gay couple is being blessed or an effort to include those couples into their congregation.

Do you get it now???  

[Stormin' Mormon]

39 minutes ago, california boy said:

there is no way a gay couple is being blessed or an effort to include those couples into their congregation.

Do you get it now???  

I'm starting to get it.  And thank you for your time and patience with me as we work through our diverse understandings of this complicated issue. 

I agree that the LDS church may not be making the same effort to include gay couples into our congregations.  But I strongly disagree that there is "no way for a gay couple" to be blessed, especially if we are comparing the types of blessings that the recent Catholic decree now opens up for them to an LDS equivalent.  The couples that can now be blessed in the Catholic Church are not being blessed as couples, nor are they being blessed as part of any liturgical service.  Rather, the Catholic Church has signaled that priests are allowed to bless them as individuals in a private, pastoral setting. 

And there are now, and have been for decades, PLENTY of ways that a gay couple can be similarly blessed by LDS priesthood authority as individuals in private, pastoral settings. 

I hope you can understand why I'm seeing a double-standard being applied here. Catholic priesthood authority is now authorized to give individual blessings in private, pastoral settings to congregants who are in a same-sex marriage, and this is construed as a signal that the Church is willing to work with the LGBTQ community to some degree.  But LDS priesthood authority, which has ALWAYS been able to give individual blessings in private, pastoral settings to congregants who are in a same-sex marriage, is considered to be not doing enough to signal such willingness.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[edvantageous]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Being out in the Church is to be tolerated. Many members consider you a vague threat but feel they are doing their “duty” by trying to be nice. You are very othered. There is a reason I don’t share that I am lgbt with other church members outside a few people I trust. I also know that the information is out there and the ward grapevine may find it any moment.

I'm sorry for your experience (and others) feeling othered. I hope you feel loved in your church family and able to extend love to others, as well.

[edvantageous]

14 hours ago, california boy said:

That is a beautiful talk.  It would certainly move the Church in a much better direction towards the LGBT community.  Unfortunately I have no hope in the near future of hearing of such a talk given by the leaders of the Church.  

My statement about Charlie Bird was not a question about what he thinks of the Church.  My statement was about how Elder Holland in a public meeting personally attached Charlie Bird for relating his experience of being gay at BYU during his graduation speach

I appreciate these individual efforts to live and respond in love, and Charlie's response to Elder Holland's (publicly critical) words is exemplary. I've learned a lot about the lgbtq+ experience from Ben & Charlie, and others and their example to participate in greater empathy and love.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, edvantageous said:

I appreciate these individual efforts to live and respond in love, and Charlie's response to Elder Holland's (publicly critical) words is exemplary. I've learned a lot about the lgbtq+ experience from Ben & Charlie, and others and their example to participate in greater empathy and love.

I agree with you, and want to thank you for digging deeper to try and understand how someone who is LGBT may have a place with God and still find love while on this earth.  I think the talk was very thought provoking and an effort to understand how they too might fit into the plan of salvation and participate in the Atonement.  For so long, I felt like it didn't matter what I did, I was surely going to the darkest place God to send me.  I no longer believe that.  I think God will be much more understanding and maybe even rejoicing that I found someone to share this life with and have the opportunity to feel what that kind of love can be like.  I don't feel at all like the Church wants to welcome my partner and me into its fold.  But maybe that has been the best for my own spiritual growth as I have come to feel the love of God outside the dogma of Mormonism.  It feels more authentic and the feelings of the Spirit reinforce that for me, I am just where God wants me to be.  

[rpn]

I read the entire letter, and I doubt it will help Catholics feel much better.   None of the words, none of the trappings of a ceremony, nothing that honors a union.  What it does essentially just allows priests to give our equivalent of a priesthood blessing of comfort.

[edvantageous]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I agree with you, and want to thank you for digging deeper to try and understand how someone who is LGBT may have a place with God and still find love while on this earth.  I think the talk was very thought provoking and an effort to understand how they too might fit into the plan of salvation and participate in the Atonement.  For so long, I felt like it didn't matter what I did, I was surely going to the darkest place God to send me.  I no longer believe that.  I think God will be much more understanding and maybe even rejoicing that I found someone to share this life with and have the opportunity to feel what that kind of love can be like.  I don't feel at all like the Church wants to welcome my partner and me into its fold.  But maybe that has been the best for my own spiritual growth as I have come to feel the love of God outside the dogma of Mormonism.  It feels more authentic and the feelings of the Spirit reinforce that for me, I am just where God wants me to be.  

Thanks for sharing that @california boy, and I'm glad you're still here in the mormon community (we're a little disjointed on here but it still feels like a little community). I'm sorry for the hurt and rejection you've experienced. I hope we can all learn to be more loving and kind -- where anyone feels alone or in pain, we all feel it.

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, rpn said:

I read the entire letter, and I doubt it will help Catholics feel much better.   None of the words, none of the trappings of a ceremony, nothing that honors a union.  What it does essentially just allows priests to give our equivalent of a priesthood blessing of comfort.

Yes, and I hope everyone understands this. The left and right wings of the Church have fundamentally misunderstood this.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, and I hope everyone understands this. The left and right wings of the Church have fundamentally misunderstood this.

So if you confuse everyone and satisfy no one does that mean you are doing it really well or really badly? I honestly don’t know at this point.

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, edvantageous said:

I'm sorry for your experience (and others) feeling othered. I hope you feel loved in your church family and able to extend love to others, as well.

To a degree. There is always the unspoken understanding I live with that most of my church relationships would change or vanish ‘if they knew who I really am’. It makes me keep an emotional distance from people. The few exceptions who know I trust much more.

[Orthodox Christian]

I believe some people here are familiar with Orthodox priest Josiah Trentham. He has posted a video entitled  Forbidden Blessings on You Tube. He addresses this topic from the perspective of an Orthodox priest, and also explains how important blessings really are. And how important it is not only to bless in accordance with God's law, but also to withhold blessings in situations which are outside God's law. The giving of priestly blessings is extremely important pastorally as is withholding them. The priest who blesses sin, in any form of course will answer to God. I recommend the video, even if it only to show that blessings should not be given lightly, nor to affirm someone in sin. 

[california boy]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

To a degree. There is always the unspoken understanding I live with that most of my church relationships would change or vanish ‘if they knew who I really am’. It makes me keep an emotional distance from people. The few exceptions who know I trust much more.

I wish I could give you some reason to hope that fear might not be true.  I felt the same when I struggled with being honest about my orientation with those that I loved.  I too kept emotional distance from everyone who said that they loved me.  In my mind, I always asked myself the same question.  Would they still love me if they knew I was gay?  My fear of being rejected was exactly what happened.  Of all the people I knew well in my ward and stake, only a handful ever contacted me again.  My father and siblings had noting to do with me for 13 years.  (My mother had already passed.)  And while my family now includes my partner and me in family activities, those scars remain deep.  I honestly can not really trust their love.  So I too still keep an emotional distant from them and feel more tolerated by them than loved. 

But I will say this.  I never regretted for a moment finally being honest in my life and quit pretending for fear of rejection the lie I told every day as people assumed I was straight.  That constant lying and false facade took a much bigger toll on me than the rejection of so many people who I thought cared about me.  And I now know who in my life actually loves who I am and not who I was pretending to be.  It does get better. I am no longer ashamed that I am gay.  That burden has been lifted.  I remember that first Thanksgiving after I came out, feeling so lonely and unwanted when some gay friends who I had only recently gotten to know, invited me to share their Thanksgiving dinner with me.  I will never forget that act of kindness that meant so much to me.  For the first time in my life, I thought that I could be loved for who I really was.  I doubt they ever really knew what a difference that made to me.  I was not alone.  Someone did care about me.  And I found a new family and community that could love the real me.

Nehor, I hope you find peace and joy in your life and find people who can actually love you and not the pretend you.  We only have one life.  There is no dress rehearsal.  You are welcome in my heart and home anytime.  

Maybe that is why this very small gesture by the Catholic Church feels so important to me.  I know that little gesture may very well help LGBT Catholics cling to their faith and feel like they are invited into the tent. I know it is just a blessing.  But it was also just a Thanksgiving dinner for me. 

[teddyaware]

On 12/18/2023 at 4:22 PM, Smiley McGee said:

Article link here: Link

Calling all resident Catholics here. I understand that "blessing" in this context is not marriage. What does this mean in practice? Is this as much of a landmark as new outlets are reporting?

 

In light of the fact that with this decision the Pope is contradicting his previously codified doctrinal stance on the matter, it’s apparent that this step amounts to nothing less than allowing the proverbial camel to push his nose under the tent on the way to the eventual full acceptance of gay marriage by the Catholic Church. In light of the fact that the whole world is very rapidly ripening in iniquity, it’s extremely naive to imagine that the Catholic Church’s softening of its stance of gay unions is going to stop at this point and go no further. Remember, the essence of the devil’s counterfeit plan of salvation is based on the lie that men can be saved in their sins, rather than on a humble acceptance of God’s most solemn affirmation that men can only be saved from their sins. When this full acceptance of gay marriage by the Catholic Church takes place, the Latter-Day Saints will be foremost among the very few churches who have not embraced the devil’s counterfeit plan of salvation, and then the judgements of an offended God will soon follow.

“… Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.” (The Family Proclamation)

I know there are many here who think I’m an overwrought kook, but you’ll eventually see I got it right. But how do I know I’m going to be proven right? Very simple… It’s because the scriptures repeatedly affirm that the great destructions that will precede the Second Coming are going to be poured out on the world due to the fact that, with the exception of the relatively few remaining righteous, the world is going to fully ripen in iniquity and turn in full violent rebellion against God and his people.

The following discussion casts a penetrating light on this subject.

 

Edited December 22, 2023 by teddyaware

[Raingirl]

27 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

In light of the fact that with this decision the Pope is contradicting his previously codified doctrinal stance on the matter, it’s apparent that this step amounts to nothing less than allowing the proverbial camel to push his nose under the tent on the way to the eventual full acceptance of gay marriage by the Catholic Church. In light of the fact that the whole world is very rapidly ripening in iniquity, it’s extremely naive to imagine that the Catholic Church’s softening of its stance of gay unions is going to stop at this point and go no further. Remember, the essence of the devil’s counterfeit plan of salvation is based on the lie that men can be saved in their sins, rather than on a humble acceptance of God’s most solemn affirmation that men can only be saved from their sins. When this full acceptance of gay marriage by the Catholic Church takes place, the Latter-Day Saints will be foremost among the very few churches who have not embraced the devil’s counterfeit plan of salvation, and then the judgements of an offended God will soon follow.

“… Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.” (The Family Proclamation)

I know there are many here who think I’m an overwrought kook, but you’ll eventually see I got it right. But how do I know I’m going to be proven right? Very simple… It’s because the scriptures repeatedly affirm that the great destructions that will precede the Second Coming are going to be poured out on the world due to the fact that, with the exception of the relatively few remaining righteous, the world is going to fully ripen in iniquity and turn in full violent rebellion against God and his people.

The following discussion casts a penetrating light on this subject.

 

As someone stated earlier in the thread, this is akin to an individual receiving a priesthood blessing. It is not blessing of or endorsing the marriage.  If you are saying this blessing is inappropriate, are you also saying that no priesthood blessings should be given to gay members of the church?  That they cannot ask for a blessing of healing, for example?  Under what other circumstances are priesthood blessings withheld?

[Peacefully]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

I wish I could give you some reason to hope that fear might not be true.  I felt the same when I struggled with being honest about my orientation with those that I loved.  I too kept emotional distance from everyone who said that they loved me.  In my mind, I always asked myself the same question.  Would they still love me if they knew I was gay?  My fear of being rejected was exactly what happened.  Of all the people I knew well in my ward and stake, only a handful ever contacted me again.  My father and siblings had noting to do with me for 13 years.  (My mother had already passed.)  And while my family now includes my partner and me in family activities, those scars remain deep.  I honestly can not really trust their love.  So I too still keep an emotional distant from them and feel more tolerated by them than loved. 

But I will say this.  I never regretted for a moment finally being honest in my life and quit pretending for fear of rejection the lie I told every day as people assumed I was straight.  That constant lying and false facade took a much bigger toll on me than the rejection of so many people who I thought cared about me.  And I now know who in my life actually loves who I am and not who I was pretending to be.  It does get better. I am no longer ashamed that I am gay.  That burden has been lifted.  I remember that first Thanksgiving after I came out, feeling so lonely and unwanted when some gay friends who I had only recently gotten to know, invited me to share their Thanksgiving dinner with me.  I will never forget that act of kindness that meant so much to me.  For the first time in my life, I thought that I could be loved for who I really was.  I doubt they ever really knew what a difference that made to me.  I was not alone.  Someone did care about me.  And I found a new family and community that could love the real me.

Nehor, I hope you find peace and joy in your life and find people who can actually love you and not the pretend you.  We only have one life.  There is no dress rehearsal.  You are welcome in my heart and home anytime.  

Maybe that is why this very small gesture by the Catholic Church feels so important to me.  I know that little gesture may very well help LGBT Catholics cling to their faith and feel like they are invited into the tent. I know it is just a blessing.  But it was also just a Thanksgiving dinner for me. 

Beautifully said and you are both welcome in my heart and home anytime:) 

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

I wish I could give you some reason to hope that fear might not be true.  I felt the same when I struggled with being honest about my orientation with those that I loved.  I too kept emotional distance from everyone who said that they loved me.  In my mind, I always asked myself the same question.  Would they still love me if they knew I was gay?  My fear of being rejected was exactly what happened.  Of all the people I knew well in my ward and stake, only a handful ever contacted me again.  My father and siblings had noting to do with me for 13 years.  (My mother had already passed.)  And while my family now includes my partner and me in family activities, those scars remain deep.  I honestly can not really trust their love.  So I too still keep an emotional distant from them and feel more tolerated by them than loved. 

But I will say this.  I never regretted for a moment finally being honest in my life and quit pretending for fear of rejection the lie I told every day as people assumed I was straight.  That constant lying and false facade took a much bigger toll on me than the rejection of so many people who I thought cared about me.  And I now know who in my life actually loves who I am and not who I was pretending to be.  It does get better. I am no longer ashamed that I am gay.  That burden has been lifted.  I remember that first Thanksgiving after I came out, feeling so lonely and unwanted when some gay friends who I had only recently gotten to know, invited me to share their Thanksgiving dinner with me.  I will never forget that act of kindness that meant so much to me.  For the first time in my life, I thought that I could be loved for who I really was.  I doubt they ever really knew what a difference that made to me.  I was not alone.  Someone did care about me.  And I found a new family and community that could love the real me.

Nehor, I hope you find peace and joy in your life and find people who can actually love you and not the pretend you.  We only have one life.  There is no dress rehearsal.  You are welcome in my heart and home anytime.  

Maybe that is why this very small gesture by the Catholic Church feels so important to me.  I know that little gesture may very well help LGBT Catholics cling to their faith and feel like they are invited into the tent. I know it is just a blessing.  But it was also just a Thanksgiving dinner for me. 

Thanks, but I have big parts of my life where I am openly out so I am okay. Several of my friend groups know and I am active in some lgbt and lgbt-adjacent communities. I am also beyond deliberately hiding. If someone outright asks me I will tell the truth. I have dated guys. I am not deeply closeted.

I don’t date in the church anymore mostly because I tell the people I am dating that I am bisexual early on in case it is a dealbreaker. It virtually always is which is why I don’t do it anymore. After having partners who found my sexuality attractive and enticing I am not going to be with someone who just tolerates it but is also vaguely disgusted by it.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

In light of the fact that with this decision the Pope is contradicting his previously codified doctrinal stance on the matter, it’s apparent that this step amounts to nothing less than allowing the proverbial camel to push his nose under the tent on the way to the eventual full acceptance of gay marriage by the Catholic Church. In light of the fact that the whole world is very rapidly ripening in iniquity, it’s extremely naive to imagine that the Catholic Church’s softening of its stance of gay unions is going to stop at this point and go no further. Remember, the essence of the devil’s counterfeit plan of salvation is based on the lie that men can be saved in their sins, rather than on a humble acceptance of God’s most solemn affirmation that men can only be saved from their sins. When this full acceptance of gay marriage by the Catholic Church takes place, the Latter-Day Saints will be foremost among the very few churches who have not embraced the devil’s counterfeit plan of salvation, and then the judgements of an offended God will soon follow.

“… Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.” (The Family Proclamation)

I know there are many here who think I’m an overwrought kook, but you’ll eventually see I got it right. But how do I know I’m going to be proven right? Very simple… It’s because the scriptures repeatedly affirm that the great destructions that will precede the Second Coming are going to be poured out on the world due to the fact that, with the exception of the relatively few remaining righteous, the world is going to fully ripen in iniquity and turn in full violent rebellion against God and his people.

The following discussion casts a penetrating light on this subject.

It is amazing how the end of days is being caused by a small minority of society being marginally more tolerated.

Non-heterosexual orientations are truly the great plague of our day. Why you can turn to the book that God wrote for us about the perils of the last days and you can find that God surely warned of this plague of deviancy.

*reads Book of Mormon*

Hey! Wait a minute! Okay, calm down. Clearly it just wasn’t a problem in Nephite society. We’ll just turn to the published revelations for our day and they will surely show God condemning this heinous practice.

*reads D&C*

Hey…….wait a minute! It is not in here at all! God took the time to warn us all of these perils and couldn’t be bothered to list the primary iniquity you see as the herald of the end? Are you sure you aren’t just taking the reactionary philosophies of men and pretending they are scripture?

[Saint Bonaventure]

A helpful take from Trent Horn, who is a mainstream, traditional Catholic commentator:

Edited December 24, 2023 by Saint Bonaventure

[Stargazer]

On 12/20/2023 at 2:40 AM, pogi said:

CFR for any description of how spirit children are made.  “Incapable” seems rather speculative, no?

No solid doctrine here.  Just theories as to why the church is against gay couples, akin to speculations about why blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood - seed of Ham, lazy in pre-existence, etc.  It was all just made up harmful BS.  How ‘bout we just stick to what we know, which is almost nothing in this case.

I agree that we know too little to speculate about "spiritual procreation," but at the same time, some logic might be of value here. If the male/female binary were not important in eternity with regards to this organizing intelligences into spirits, then it seems to me that God would have made us differently. There are organisms on earth that procreate through a mutual exchange of gametes, and all individuals produce both male and female gametes. While these are what we are pleased to call "lower orders" (earthworms, mollusks, and tunicates, mainly), they are in their sphere highly developed and successful. 

Since we don't procreate in that way, the binary appears to be very important in our situation. 

But as you say, speculation as to what we are to make of same-sex attraction in the eternal scheme of things is quite unproductive, due to our profound ignorance. 

[JAHS]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I agree that we know too little to speculate about "spiritual procreation," but at the same time, some logic might be of value here. If the male/female binary were not important in eternity with regards to this organizing intelligences into spirits, then it seems to me that God would have made us differently. There are organisms on earth that procreate through a mutual exchange of gametes, and all individuals produce both male and female gametes. While these are what we are pleased to call "lower orders" (earthworms, mollusks, and tunicates, mainly), they are in their sphere highly developed and successful. 

Since we don't procreate in that way, the binary appears to be very important in our situation. 

But as you say, speculation as to what we are to make of same-sex attraction in the eternal scheme of things is quite unproductive, due to our profound ignorance. 

Speaking on same sex attraction, Elder Bruce C. Hafen, a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy, said:

"If you are faithful, on resurrection morning -- and maybe even before then -- you will rise with normal attractions for the opposite sex."

I don't know if this is considered official doctrine, but this could mean during the Millennium they will be able to be sealed to someone of the opposite sex and eventually obtain exaltation in the highest kingdom of heaven.

[teddyaware]

On 12/22/2023 at 7:40 PM, The Nehor said:

It is amazing how the end of days is being caused by a small minority of society being marginally more tolerated.

Non-heterosexual orientations are truly the great plague of our day. Why you can turn to the book that God wrote for us about the perils of the last days and you can find that God surely warned of this plague of deviancy.

*reads Book of Mormon*

Hey! Wait a minute! Okay, calm down. Clearly it just wasn’t a problem in Nephite society. We’ll just turn to the published revelations for our day and they will surely show God condemning this heinous practice.

*reads D&C*

Hey…….wait a minute! It is not in here at all! God took the time to warn us all of these perils and couldn’t be bothered to list the primary iniquity you see as the herald of the end? Are you sure you aren’t just taking the reactionary philosophies of men and pretending they are scripture?

Wrong! So because I contributed my thoughts on a thread that’s focused like a laser on the Catholic Church’s new policy of allowing priests to bless gay couples, you rashly jump to the incorrect conclusion that I’m not equally troubled by the multitude of other egregious indicators that the world is rapidly ripening in iniquity? If you could be a fly on my living room wall, you’d observe that I focus much more frequently on the deteriorating state of relations between men and women, and the destructive effect it’s having on the traditional nuclear family, than I do on gay issues. I can’t help it if the Catholic Church’s recent reversal of one of its seemingly steadfast moral teachings — a change that, like it or not, has deeply shocked and troubled millions of loyal, practicing Catholics — has grabbed the recent headlines.