False Doctrine

[Savta]

Has anyone got any suggestions as to what to say and how to deal gently and in a Christ like manner with someone who continues to make strange and vague comments during Gospel Doctrine class?   The utterances appear to verge on false doctrine and are at times offensive (possible not on purpose) to certain cultural groups .  They make many in the class  uncomfortable but people are generally too polite to say anything.  A couple of teachers over the years have basically told him to stop talking but that only creates a feeling of contention.  It seems that this person could have some cognitive or psychological issue so long term members make allowances for him.  Our leaders have talked to him but he has difficulty comprehending what they are saying.  I've thought of asking him each time if he could share the source of his information but I don't want to offend him by making him feel he is being scrutinized.  Any suggestions would be helpful.  

[Kenngo1969]

Perhaps you will find some suggestions in the link to be of use (though I hasten to add that, of course, I don't know: I'm not in your class, nor am I acquainted with anyone involved; your rejoinder may be "been there, tried those").  Perhaps you could prepare something with your "disruptive student" in advance outside of class that will enable him to contribute in a positive way. 

It's a difficult challenge to face and a difficult line to walk.  God loves your students even more than you do (even this one, who, in some ways, seems rather wayward).  I'm sure you have taken it up with Him.  At any rate, here is what Teaching: No Greater Call suggests:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-no-greater-call-a-resource-guide-for-gospel-teaching/b-basic-principles-of-gospel-teaching/create-a-learning-atmosphere/24-helping-those-who-become-disruptive?lang=eng

Godspeed, Warm Regards, and Best Wishes.

 

[blackstrap]

Tape ?

[Rain]

I read this to my husband to get his ideas. He is reading "Barking to the Choir" by Gregory Boyle.  He said he just read something that fits, "Love is always the right answer."

To add to that President Monson said "Never let a problem to be solved become more important than a person to be loved."

So with whatever you do put love in your heart first. When a person feels you love them that helps them see that love in your answer.

Practical ideas:

If he has a difficult time understanding then his feeling offended may not be as big of a worry as you think it is. Consider going to his house and visiting with him and getting to know him better NOT so you can solve this, but so you can see what Heavenly Father sees in him. Or go to lunch with him.  Or for a walk...

Meanwhile you could say things like, "that is an interesting idea to think about. Let's see what the scriptures say."

I find so often a follow up question (or 2 or 3 or 4) is good because there is often something there that is not obvious in the comment.  Always asking with love and with curiosity or for understanding.  If you truly try to understand the other person I find 99% of the time they feel that.  (More so in person)

Ask "why do you think that is?"  His answer may show where he has a gap of understanding that you can fill in.  

Don't worry about offending him asking about his source if you are truly wondering - I sure would be wondering.  If he gives something in the gospel library you can say something like "this would be a good thing to look at together".  Then you can read it and have the class discuss what they see in it.

If it isn't anything from the gospel library you might say, "can anyone think of something in the gospel library that goes with this topic?"

Edited July 17, 2023 by Rain

[manol]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Perhaps you will find some suggestions in the link to be of use (though I hasten to add that, of course, I don't know: I'm not in your class, nor am I acquainted with anyone involved; your rejoinder may be "been there, tried those").  Perhaps you could prepare something with your "disruptive student" in advance outside of class that will enable him to contribute in a positive way. 

It's a difficult challenge to face and a difficult line to walk.  God loves your students even more than you do (even this one, who, in some ways, seems rather wayward).  I'm sure you have taken it up with Him.  At any rate, here is what Teaching: No Greater Call suggests:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teaching-no-greater-call-a-resource-guide-for-gospel-teaching/b-basic-principles-of-gospel-teaching/create-a-learning-atmosphere/24-helping-those-who-become-disruptive?lang=eng

Godspeed, Warm Regards, and Best Wishes.

I read the article and it is indeed excellent; GREAT suggestion, Ken!

2 hours ago, Savta said:

Has anyone got any suggestions as to what to say and how to deal gently and in a Christ like manner with someone who continues to make strange and vague comments during Gospel Doctrine class?   The utterances appear to verge on false doctrine and are at times offensive (possible not on purpose) to certain cultural groups .  They make many in the class uncomfortable but people are generally too polite to say anything.

That you care so much about this person and about your class to sign up on this site and ask this question says WORLDS about you!!  Your class members, and in particular this person, are blessed to have you as their teacher.

Imo seeing another person, especially a disruptive other person, through the eyes of Christ is NOT a beginner-level undertaking.  It sounds to me like you will need to see the highest truth you can about them DESPITE this highest truth NOT being in evidence at this time.  But this is what we ask of Christ (who we are suppose become like) - we ask him to see the highest truth that can be seen about us even when it is NOT in evidence at this time!

The worth of souls is great, as obviously you already know.  It looks to me like you have been chosen to DEMONSTRATE this to this individual and to the whole class.  And this lesson may be more important to them, to you, and to the class, than covering all of the material in the manual.

Perhaps @BlueDreams will stop by and comment, as she has not only a professional level of wisdom and competence but also a heart of gold.  Blue-ish gold. 

Anyway my fall-back rule of thumb is, when in doubt, err on the side of kindness.

 

Edit:  I just read @Rain's reply.  Imo this quote in particular is brilliant:

"Love is always the right answer." - Gregory Boyle

Edited July 17, 2023 by manol

[manol]

15 minutes ago, manol said:

Oops double-posted instead of editing.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by manol

[BlueDreams]

6 hours ago, Savta said:

Has anyone got any suggestions as to what to say and how to deal gently and in a Christ like manner with someone who continues to make strange and vague comments during Gospel Doctrine class?   The utterances appear to verge on false doctrine and are at times offensive (possible not on purpose) to certain cultural groups .  They make many in the class  uncomfortable but people are generally too polite to say anything.  A couple of teachers over the years have basically told him to stop talking but that only creates a feeling of contention.  It seems that this person could have some cognitive or psychological issue so long term members make allowances for him.  Our leaders have talked to him but he has difficulty comprehending what they are saying.  I've thought of asking him each time if he could share the source of his information but I don't want to offend him by making him feel he is being scrutinized.  Any suggestions would be helpful.  

I really like Rain's ideas. I've had that happen a couple of times both as a teacher and as a member in the class. Honestly in some ways I find it easier to do it as a  participant than the teacher. My opinion just becomes another opinion rather than a direct repudiation. So for example, someone started talking about an idea that has had some difficult ramifications for the church in the past and still has some problematic implications. I then noted, that could have some problems to it and noted how I think about the similar topic. Or I just share my experience or thoughts within a difficult topic. Usually if I open up, it changes the dynamic in the room and more are likely to pipe up in some form of agreement. It's easier to agree than to confront....so that awkward pause is usually a sign that people are just waiting for someone else to say something different. 

Being a teacher, you're trying not to fully alienate any member while balancing out things in a way that more people than not feel edified in some way by the class. I like to start with where I can agree and then find a means to soft disagree to reduce fully calling out in class. Though with most people, full call outs aren't really necessary anyways. For example I had a person in a class vent/ask about a gay roommate who he felt was discussing his gay experience too much for his comfort. It read off as really awkward. So I gave empathy without necessarily validation by telling him a story that had come up recently. The soft rebuke was that I told my loved one that I would hope that they could always come to me and talk about what's important in their life despite our differences in experience. It wasn't a "you're wrong" but it was enough that it at least showed that there isn't just one way to feel and handle a situation like his...and that can be enough. 

I also pick my battles. Sometimes a comment is just a little weird or a little off. It's not worth me wrestling with IMHO. But if there's something that I feel could do more harm, I will usually pipe up. 

last thought and then it's bed time: softening absolutes can also help. For example if they say something that's stated as near fact/gospel truth, one can soften it by saying "you can read it that way, others often have read this differently (followed with an example)" If you don't have an example, it would be a good time to open the floor for others to share different ways they see this. That gives a gentler opening for a person who may want to speak up to speak without directly confronting.

 

If you have an idea of his views and there's a pattern as to what he'll share you can prep for it in the materials by trying to imagine what he might hone in on in a lesson. That way you feel a little less frozen when it does happen. 

Either way, it's not an easy thing to manage. Give yourself grace for at least trying. Many people in the class likely already are.  

 

With luv,

BD

 

[Pyreaux]

I often attempted to be provocative with bit of obscure academia to prevent boredom in class, and many of my unique but brief comments are not sourced for time's sake. It could be an annoyance if they all doubted my say so. l think it beats quietly sitting and just listening to the older lady with longwinded life stories or the younger man completely off topic ramblings that are tolerated because of possible mental issues.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Pyreaux

[rpn]

If there is solid reason to believe their is a disability, then invite the stake disability specialist to attend and give you some suggestions.  

Practicing patience with those who need it at church is something we can each benefit from, maybe more than any other lesson.

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

Summarize, accurately and completely, his comments.  "So, you're saying Brigham Young originally wanted to make the temple out of sandstone, and if he had been allowed to exercise his faith, he could have transformed it into granite, and the temple would have been completed a year earlier?  I've never heard a theory like that before, not sure how many people are gonna grab on to that one, but thanks for sharing!"

Nuts, passionate zealots, conspiracy theorists, various types of mentally ill folks, folks without empathy, folks utterly unable to read a room; they all struggle with being taken seriously by people.  (Well, at least to the extent that they are aware can understand people's reactions to their stuff.)  Oddballs are often excluded and lonely and desperate to be heard/understood/loved.  The first person at church in forever to actually act like they're listening to them, can keep them from disrupting a lesson.

I think the link is lost to time, but author Orson Scott Card had a blog post back in the day, a story from his time as a Gospel Essentials instructor.  Elderly Brother Nelson, every single week, had to make some random comment that had nothing to do with the lesson.  He'd raise his hand, and wouldn't let Brother Card ignore him or not give him his say for the week.  "I have a theory about black holes..."  Card figured out that the quicker Nelson had his say, the quicker he could return the class to the actual lesson about tithing or whatever.  The class got as used to him as Card did.    The moral of the story was after Nelson died, 3 widows went inactive, because he had been their ride.  Everyone has something to offer, and it's worth putting up with quirks.  

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

think the link is lost to time, but author Orson Scott Card had a blog post back in the day

https://www.deseret.com/2010/11/20/20154786/orson-scott-card-in-the-village-it-s-a-matter-of-how-no-where-we-serve

[Stargazer]

13 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Summarize, accurately and completely, his comments.  "So, you're saying Brigham Young originally wanted to make the temple out of sandstone, and if he had been allowed to exercise his faith, he could have transformed it into granite, and the temple would have been completed a year earlier?  I've never heard a theory like that before, not sure how many people are gonna grab on to that one, but thanks for sharing!"

I was once Sunday School teacher to 16/17 year olds. One of the class members was a non-member boy who was the foster child of a member of the bishopric. He liked to participate in the class by giving answers which were clearly designed to fluster the instructor. Apparently I was a great trial to him; you could read the disappointment on his face sometimes. Instead of getting flustered I would take his answer or remark seriously and respond something like 'Well, one might think that might be the case, but it turns out that...". 

But I like the sandstone to granite story!

[LoudmouthMormon]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

https://www.deseret.com/2010/11/20/20154786/orson-scott-card-in-the-village-it-s-a-matter-of-how-no-where-we-serve

Yay!   Brother Richter!

Quote

Nearly every Sunday, he would come prepared. Not for my lesson, but for his.
...
"I have a comment about black holes," he said. Then he proceeded to provide us all with five minutes summarizing some news story about black holes and then explaining to us that black holes were likely candidates to be what the scriptures call "outer darkness."  When he was done, I thanked him, and tried to pick up the thread of the lesson.
...
It was not a conflict between us. He came with his lesson, I came with mine. He was generous and left me most of the class time. If I ever showed anger or impatience, it would make everybody uncomfortable, so I tried mightily to accept these interruptions in good humor.  In fact, I liked Brother Richter. When he wasn't carrying my lesson time away on some strange tangent.

 

[Saint Bonaventure]

Appoint someone to be an inquisitor. It will take care of itself from there. 

[JustAnAustralian]

On 7/25/2023 at 12:22 AM, Saint Bonaventure said:

Appoint someone to be an inquisitor. It will take care of itself from there. 

Do I get a cool sash if I volunteer?

[The Nehor]

On 7/24/2023 at 9:22 AM, Saint Bonaventure said:

Appoint someone to be an inquisitor. It will take care of itself from there. 

Is this guy available?

 

[Niblo]

On 7/24/2023 at 3:22 PM, Saint Bonaventure said:

Appoint someone to be an inquisitor. It will take care of itself from there. 

'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition' 🤯

[Saint Bonaventure]

8 hours ago, Niblo said:

'Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition' 🤯

Whoa. A Monty Python reference!

[Niblo]

13 hours ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

Whoa. A Monty Python reference!

Ahh...I see you are an educated geezer 😉.