Group Denigrating Catholics Invited by LA Dodgers to "Pride Night"

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you think that the impact of rainbow capitalism will change any hearts and minds?  Or will it be a temporary cosmetic change?

I don’t think it alone will do anything. Making it socially shameful to be anti-lgbt will cause a cosmetic change. Sometimes the cosmetic change becomes a deeper change. We often become what we pretend to be.

The better approach is exposure to lgbt people. While they are abstract “counters” on a political board it is easy to support things that hurt them. When it hurts Dave or Megan who are my friends it becomes much harder.

Edited May 26, 2023 by The Nehor

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Saint Bonaventure said:

This is secondary to the larger conversation, but there is a serious tide change happening with regard to nuns and habits. More and more nuns do wear habits these days. In fact, the ones who don't are in orders that are fading. The discussion of this is beyond this thread, but anyone who googles Catholic religious orders will discover this.

 

Great to know this, good news.  I have seen the power of investiture and the connection between wearing certain garments "putting on/ taking on" covenants, and Catholicism taught me that through wearing a scapular, as I did in my youth.

In fact the word for the LDS Endowment liturgy, in Spanish, is connected with the notion of "investiture", maybe a Spanish speaker can respond on that one.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

I have been all across the spectrum of Atheism and faith. Many here have seen my struggle to find my place. I feel like an ignorant hypocrite most of the time. In my heart, I beg for God to be real. Also in my heart, how do I reconcile religious tradition that I love 98% of the time with my own emotionally charged faith struggles? I am weak but I hope beyond measure that God sees me and shows His mercy.

Join the party!

[Smiley McGee]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

The quote of mine you responded to was a general idea that could be applied to this specific situation. In general, responding with anger and mockery hurts the person with the anger more than the person receiving the anger, and the way to change the hearts of those who oppose you is to love them. This is attested to across spiritual traditions and secular ethical systems. I'm not personally presuming any moral authority, which is why I referred to Jesus in general and the Buddha in particular. Here's Gandhi: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Or Martin Luther King, jr.: "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that."

The SPI can do with that what they will. As I said previously, I'm not angry or outraged by their actions. They are profaning something I consider sacred, and so that saddens me, as it would sadden anyone whose beliefs about the sacred are trammeled.

Help me understand this. You’re Catholic. Your church, like Mormonism, has a poor track record with LGBTQ people. The LGBTQ community responds to the poor treatment with mockery. You suggest they need to forgive and love Catholics in order for Catholic hearts to be softened and changed? It’s up to the LGBTQ community to get Catholics to stop treating them so poorly? 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Not possible when one group’s idea of tolerance* appears intolerant by the other. 

Are you assuming I am talking about a specific group rather than generally?

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

It’s up to the LGBTQ community to get Catholics to stop treating them so poorly? 

Speaking generally….

It is certainly not possible for any offended by intolerance they experienced to do it on their own and it is not fair to ask victims of intolerance to be the activists for tolerance by demanding they be tolerant while not addressing the intolerance around them.

However, if all the victims (actual and those who see themselves as victims) of the world turn around and act as they are acted against until the oppressors change, change is going to take a much longer time to happening.

Whether it is fair or right, if someone cares about making the world a more tolerant place, they do best imo by setting the example of what they want the world to look like rather than waiting for someone else to fix things.

It is also understandable and in many cases very forgivable where it creates more wrongs imo if a person looks at the world and ends up concluding there is no hope for change, so the most important is to protect their chosen community first and foremost and anything else is a distant second, but that is a sad outcome to me.

Oppressors who justify their treatment of the oppressed by pointing to the retaliation acted out of the oppressed are much harder to forgive and understand for me. (I always flashback on this topic to Quebec’s relationship with the Anglophone communities in Canada while we were there, there was a lot of bigotry on both sides that even showed up in conflict in my kid’s Albertan elementary school, which was French Immersion, but had an English class for the locals as well.)

Edited May 26, 2023 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It will be the next 9/11.

Funny. I have never been in the service but I can tell the difference between AR-15 fire and AK-47 fire from drive-by shootings.

[MiserereNobis]

51 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

The LGBTQ community responds to the poor treatment with mockery.

The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are not the LGBTQ community. We are talking about the actions of a small specific group here, not the whole community.

53 minutes ago, Smiley McGee said:

You suggest they need to forgive and love Catholics in order for Catholic hearts to be softened and changed?

Mocking that which Catholics hold sacred is not going to change Catholic views. In fact, it will harden and solidify them. It makes it easy for people to say, "see we told you how they really are." Now, I don't think the SPI care at all what Catholics think of them. But perhaps those who are trying to change Catholic views might find it more effective to achieve their goals by not supporting the SPI.

The idea that love and forgiveness works for social change comes from some of the greatest and most effective civil rights activists in the world.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Mocking that which Catholics hold sacred is not going to change Catholic views. In fact, it will harden and solidify them. It makes it easy for people to say, "see we told you how they really are." Now, I don't think the SPI care at all what Catholics think of them. But perhaps those who are trying to change Catholic views might find it more effective to achieve their goals by not supporting the SPI.

The idea that love and forgiveness works for social change comes from some of the greatest and most effective civil rights activists in the world.

In the Latter-day Saint paradigm, we make reference to a narrative in the Book of Mormon about Lehi having a vision of the Tree of Life:

Quote

4 ...{F}or behold, methought I saw in my dream, a dark and dreary wilderness.
5 And it came to pass that I saw a man, and he was dressed in a white robe; and he came and stood before me.
6 And it came to pass that he spake unto me, and bade me follow him.
7 And it came to pass that as I followed him I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste.
8 And after I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness, I began to pray unto the Lord that he would have mercy on me, according to the multitude of his tender mercies.
9 And it came to pass after I had prayed unto the Lord I beheld a large and spacious field.
10 And it came to pass that I beheld a tree, whose fruit was desirable to make one happy.
11 And it came to pass that I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof; and I beheld that it was most sweet, above all that I ever before tasted. Yea, and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen.
12 And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also; for I knew that it was desirable above all other fruit.

Pretty straightforward so far.  The "fruit" is "desirable to make one happy," and is later described in the text as "the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things."

Quote

13 And as I cast my eyes round about, that perhaps I might discover my family also, I beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit.
14 And I looked to behold from whence it came; and I saw the head thereof a little way off; and at the head thereof I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi; and they stood as if they knew not whither they should go.
15 And it came to pass that I beckoned unto them; and I also did say unto them with a loud voice that they should come unto me, and partake of the fruit, which was desirable above all other fruit.
16 And it came to pass that they did come unto me and partake of the fruit also.
17 And it came to pass that I was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also; wherefore, I cast mine eyes towards the head of the river, that perhaps I might see them.
18 And it came to pass that I saw them, but they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit.

For various reasons, there are some who choose to not "partake of the fruit."

Quote

19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.
20 And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.
21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.
22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.
23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.

There are some others who commenced on the path to "partake of the fruit," but who then "wandered off and were lost."

Quote

24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.

There are some others who commenced on the path to "partake of the fruit," and actually reach the tree and eat the fruit, but then "but who then "cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed."  The explanation for this is, I think, in the following verses:

Quote

26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.
27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

I find it noteworthy that the people in this "Great and Spacious Building" are attempting to influence others, but not through through persuasion and reasoning, nor even through coercive violence or threats of violence.  Instead, these folks resort to . . . ridicule.  Scorn.  Derision.  "The attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers" at "those who ... were partaking of the fruit."

Sadly, this methodology can be effective:

Quote

28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.
...
31 And {Lehi} also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.
32 And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads.
33 And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.

"And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn..."

I just don't buy into the narrative that SPI's behavior relative to Catholic doctrine and belief is benevolent, or justified, or that it is not intended to ridicule and profane and denigrate.  Those who suggest these things insult our intelligence by doing so. 

You may be wondering why I, a Latter-day Saint, am quoting our unique scriptures to you, a Catholic, about an issue pertaining to Catholicism.  The answer is because earlier today I came across this article: What Latter-day Saints should know about Lent, Holy Week, and other Christian holy days

An excerpt:

Quote

Latter-day Saints seem to be increasingly attuned to Christian observances that we haven’t traditionally participated in—joining us with the larger Christian family in marking sacred Christian holy days.

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it can be enriching to understand some of the religious practices and experiences of our devout Christian brothers and sisters throughout the world.

Latter-day Saints appreciate the importance of sacred space, but perhaps we’re still growing in our understanding and appreciation of how sacred time—including traditional Christian holidays—can help us focus on the Savior. For many other Christian traditions, sacred time is a way of connecting with the time and places of the life of Christ.

I think the Latter-day Saints have a lot to learn from our Catholic brothers and sisters.  So in examining the various problematic behaviors exhibited by SPI (wow, these guys are really going out of their way to offend, profane, ridicule, etc.), the foregoing "Great and Spacious Building" and "attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers" imagery came to mind. 

Though I am not Catholic, I likewise cherish Jesus Christ, and so am also troubled by the deliberate and calculated obscenities and denigrations of Him by SPI.  

Though I am not Catholic, I honor and revere Mary, and so dislike the profane sexualization of her by SPI.

Though I am not Catholic and have not participated in "Stations of the Cross" devotions, I appreciate that this is important and sacred to my Catholic brothers and sisters, and so I am troubled by SPI's behavior described here:

Quote

In 1995, the SPI initiated a tour of 13 gay bars to ridicule the Catholic devotion of the Stations of the Cross. At each “station,” men dressed as the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, and other biblical women shouted sexual encouragement to the fake “Jesus.” 

Though I am not Catholic, I have attended Mass a few times, and respect it.  I am therefore troubled by SPI's behavior described here:

Quote

1989: At the “Condom Savior Mass,” the Sisters read from a text of the “Condom Savior Consecration.” It said, “The Latex Host is the flesh for the life of the world. Just as the Creator who has life sent us, we have life because of the Condom Savior. Those who feed on this latex will have life because of it. This is the bread that comes down from Heaven, and, unlike those who eat not and therefore die, those who feed on this bread shall live forever!”

I think Catholics and Latter-day Saints have much in common, and much to learn from each other.

Thanks,

-Smac

[gopher]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The better approach is exposure to lgbt people. While they are abstract “counters” on a political board it is easy to support things that hurt them. When it hurts Dave or Megan who are my friends it becomes much harder.

That works except when the exposure is from LGBT groups like the SPI.  Instead of being known for the good they've done in the past, their members are now known for their vulgar and blasphemous behavior towards Catholics as well as other Christians (and stealing other people's luggage from airports).  

 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, gopher said:

(and stealing other people's luggage from airports).  

I think you're conflating SPI with a certain former administration official.

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Smiley McGee said:

Help me understand this. You’re Catholic. Your church, like Mormonism, has a poor track record with LGBTQ people. The LGBTQ community responds to the poor treatment with mockery. You suggest they need to forgive and love Catholics in order for Catholic hearts to be softened and changed? It’s up to the LGBTQ community to get Catholics to stop treating them so poorly? 

"New Survey Reveals 80% of U.S. Catholics Support LGBTQ+ Non-Discrimination"

Looks like the Catholics are doing a pretty good job supporting the LGBT community today. 

From the polling about how the US feels about LGBT issues in the article:

"Catholics were the most supportive of any Christian denomination"

Maybe it's time for the SPI to show some support in return by stopping their attacks on the sacred beliefs of Catholics.

[gopher]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think you're conflating SPI with a certain former administration official.

From wikipedia:

"In 2016 and 2018, Brinton was the principal officer for the Washington DC chapter of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, an LGBTQ charity and human rights group."

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, gopher said:

From wikipedia:

"In 2016 and 2018, Brinton was the principal officer for the Washington DC chapter of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, an LGBTQ charity and human rights group."

I stand corrected. That guy is kind of a piece of work. 

[Smiley McGee]

48 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence are not the LGBTQ community. We are talking about the actions of a small specific group here, not the whole community.

Mocking that which Catholics hold sacred is not going to change Catholic views. In fact, it will harden and solidify them. It makes it easy for people to say, "see we told you how they really are." Now, I don't think the SPI care at all what Catholics think of them. But perhaps those who are trying to change Catholic views might find it more effective to achieve their goals by not supporting the SPI.

The idea that love and forgiveness works for social change comes from some of the greatest and most effective civil rights activists in the world.

Why not just short circuit the elaborate process and have Catholics and Mormons practice all those nice Christlike qualities you’re talking about in the first place?

[Stormin' Mormon]

2 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Why not just short circuit the elaborate process and have Catholics and Mormons practice all those nice Christlike qualities you’re talking about in the first place?

Yeah, the Mormon Church should, I don't know, support legislation that protects the LGBTQ community from discrimination in housing and employment in places like, just spitballing here, Utah, Arizona, or Florida. 

https://www.deseret.com/2015/3/5/20560075/lds-church-lgbt-advocates-back-anti-discrimination-religious-rights-bill

https://www.12news.com/article/news/politics/lds-church-leader-sinema-call-for-lgbtq-equality-as-mesa-faces-challenge-to-non-discrimination-law/75-0f96f38b-dbda-468b-ba82-17db95b91645

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/2022/feb/07/lds-church-supports-bipartisan-arizona-bill-with-lgbtq-protections/

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2022/9/13/23333215/latter-day-saint-leaders-others-supporting-lgbtq-rights-in-florida

The Church is still getting dragged in the popular imagination for its role during the Prop 8 campaign in California.  But that was 15 years ago.  A lot has happened since then.  Might be time to update your biases.  

[MorningStar]

On 5/24/2023 at 1:15 PM, The Nehor said:

They never intended to be family friendly.

I’m sure. The Dodgers aren’t obligated to recognize a group for a good deed when their overall existence is meant to mock sacred things. 

[Smiley McGee]

For all the whiners bemoaning the fact that a few LGBTQ people haven’t developed a sufficient level of Stockholm syndrome for their oppressors, the Dodgers are offering an olive branch to ease your hurt whittle feelweens 😢:

Article

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, MorningStar said:

I’m sure. The Dodgers aren’t obligated to recognize a group for a good deed when their overall existence is meant to mock sacred things. 

No, they aren’t obligated to recognize anyone at all. They chose to. So why isn’t anyone attacking the owners of the Dodgers? Punch up!

[gopher]

10 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

For all the whiners bemoaning the fact that a few LGBTQ people haven’t developed a sufficient level of Stockholm syndrome for their oppressors, the Dodgers are offering an olive branch to ease your hurt whittle feelweens 😢:

Article

Have the Dodgers discontinued their annual "Mormon" night?  Last mention I can find online is from 2019 when Elder Andersen threw out the first pitch.  It's been an event for the past 40 years, but I don't see it listed anywhere on their schedule for this year.  Doesn't mean they aren't still doing it, I just don't see anywhere online where it's advertised.   

[gopher]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, they aren’t obligated to recognize anyone at all. They chose to. So why isn’t anyone attacking the owners of the Dodgers? Punch up!

Until last year, the Dodgers were the most hated team in MLB so I don't think it will make much difference to attack the owners of the Dodgers.  Maybe they can reclaim the top spot again?

The top 5 most hated MLB teams according to BetOnline:

1. New York Yankees
2. Los Angeles Dodgers
3. Houston Astros
4. Philadelphia Phillies
5. Chicago Cubs 

[Navidad]

On 5/24/2023 at 2:43 AM, Damien the Leper said:

Emotions run high. How do we reward intolerance with tolerance on either side? There is no side with a moral or just high ground. Religion is not the arbiter of absolute morality. That is a given based on historical analysis. Humanism is equally not the arbiter of absolute morality. How do we come to a level playing field and try to balance our perspectives? Does compassion and love not negate dogmatism and moral absolutism? As a human species we must do better to reach out to one another without the arrogance and narcissism of being more morally correct than those we disagree with. Sincerest apologies for my rant.

Well said. I believe we combat dogmatism and moral absolutism by abandoning certainty, normalism, generalizations, and onlyism. Those are four horsemen of much of human conflict, since humans have existed! The fifth is dehumanization.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

On 5/24/2023 at 1:42 PM, smac97 said:

This fallacy is a form of the moral equivalence fallacy.

I really enjoy learning about fallacies. I find it a fascinating subject. Do you or anyone else have a great book to recommend on fallacies? Thanks.

[Navidad]

On 5/26/2023 at 7:08 AM, Smiley McGee said:

You said “general tolerance.” Not possible when one group’s idea of tolerance* appears intolerant by the other. 

I think there is a lot of wisdom in this. Tolerance and intolerance are certainly in the "eye" or doctrine, dogma, belief system, or degree of certainty of the beholder. There is much that could be said about interfaith interactions in this regard. You have made me think. Thanks.

[Navidad]

On 5/25/2023 at 7:34 PM, Calm said:

Another thought…

I can understand why initially it may give oneself a sense of control or power to mock what one feels is threatening to oneself or who have hurt one.  But if that is where we choose to stay, to me that is letting the other who hurt us to continue to define we are.  I can see membership in such a parody group might prolong the venting or even turn it into a habit or worse, a major part of we are in our own view.  While there are ways to be an activist without it taking over one’s life, achieving a balance that allows us to move forward as well as draw attention to our former plight can be difficult. 
 

We definitely need activists that can make the experience real to us so we can be passionate in a good cause.  I just think using highly charged, emotional language and behaviour makes it harder to get a healthy balance.  That is why I think any outrage behaviour from the right or left or nonpolitical can backfire so easily as we turn ourselves into perpetual victims.

Calm . . . Thanks for this. My wife and I have been hurt by some of our interactions in trying to "belong" to an LDS community that only responds to formal and official belongingness. We have been hurt and we have been angry about it. However we cannot continue to allow the LDS to define who we are spiritually. We do not want, using your term to become "perpetual victims" of our own hurt and anger at their rejection. So, we must distance a bit, so it is not a daily occurrence.

We must let go of our "we have accepted you, why won't you accept us?" way of thinking. It is destructive to our own spiritual and mental health. I am sure these good LDS folks here are sure they have been more than tolerant of us; yet their rejection of the truly salvific nature of our faith and trust in Christ seems painfully intolerant to us. They aren't going to let go of that intolerance, nor of their certainty that they are being kind and loving in that rejection of us just "as we are." Only we can let go of our sense of victimness in that. That is the lesson we are learning.