Elder Kevin Pearson: To

[Smiley McGee]

Apologies for messing up the title: To criticize Joseph is to Criticize God

In a recent prospective missionary devotional, Elder Kevin Pearson asserted the following as he closed his address: 

“One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, whose prophet he is, and has been from the very foundation of the world, and will always be forever and ever.” (see 1:07:15 of this link)

Interested to hear your thoughts on this transitive property of criticism.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Calm]

If Joseph is his prophet and if he is being attacked in areas where he was acting as God’s prophet as inspired…

But those are big ifs.  I have my doubts God is going to be offended by those who have doubts about Joseph.  Saddened a great deal I suspect, but not offended.

[blackstrap]

I think it depends on the reason for the criticism. If one attacked Joseph over doctrine , maybe. If the attack is over Joseph's appearance or personal behavior , then probably not directed at God unless you think God would not call a prophet who dressed badly  or used the word 'like ' too much. 

[Pyreaux]

(Link at 1:07:15). Well, of course, that can be a reasonable position to personally hold because a real prophet is a big deal, God speaks to him, its God you'll have to answer to. With a testimony one should be careful to join the woke fade of "Deconstruction" of our heroes. 

If you criticize his hairline, I'd beware of shebears.

[Hamilton Porter]

That's good advice for missionaries. I'm glad I went when I was 19 and my brain wasn't corrupted by higher education.

[Meadowchik]

It really just sounds like a thing a person would say to consolidate power. It does not sound to me like a thing a good being would say or enforce.

[sunstoned]

7 hours ago, blackstrap said:

I think it depends on the reason for the criticism. If one attacked Joseph over doctrine , maybe. If the attack is over Joseph's appearance or personal behavior , then probably not directed at God unless you think God would not call a prophet who dressed badly  or used the word 'like ' too much. 

I think most of the criticism is his personal behavior rather than his appearance.

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

That's good advice for missionaries. I'm glad I went when I was 19 and my brain wasn't corrupted by higher education.

Yes, you have to be careful of education and all that comes with it like critical thinking skills.

[Hamilton Porter]

22 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Yes, you have to be careful of education and all that comes with it like critical thinking skills.

Whatever you say, Billy Bob.

[Saint Bonaventure]

I probably don't understand all of the context, but the Elder Kevin Pearson quote reminds me of a situation that happened with a religious order here in my diocese.

There was an abbess (if you think of mother superior from The Sound of Music, you're pretty close) who was so highly regarded that a notion had taken hold that to criticize her was to criticize God. The diocese has a liaison office with the religious orders, and I know a person in that office. He is a psychologist with a counseling license.

The diocese investigated and found that a kind of narcissistic groupthink had crept in. The sisters in this group had even taken on similar vocal tones and speech patterns, and had cultivated a high-sensitivity to criticism. Yikes. So those sisters were taken in by other groups in their order, and some additional oversight was put in place.

These sisters were wonderful in so many ways. They were involved with outreach to the homeless and would regularly pray with the dying and their families. At the same time, everyone in my field and in related fields is aware that when reasonable transparency, questions, and means of accountability are construed as "criticism," it's a red flag, and even for nuns. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Saint Bonaventure

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Apologies for messing up the title: To criticize Joseph is to Criticize God

In a recent prospective missionary devotional, Elder Kevin Pearson asserted the following as he closed his address: 

“One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, whose prophet he is, and has been from the very foundation of the world, and will always be forever and ever.” (see 1:07:15 of this link)

Interested to hear your thoughts on this transitive property of criticism.

I would love to comment but I can't sit through the prior 32 minutes of his talk for proper context (and probably as set up by statements made by prior speakers) -- is there a transcript?

I suspect, and my bias given the setting, is that the context is the need for missionaries to have a testimony of the Book or Mormon (the assumption being they are already converted to Christ), which by extension is a testimony of God's love as expressed through the Restoration (i.e., priesthood keys, aka the Church), which by extension suggests a testimony of Jospeh Smith and his role. Church leaders encourage missionaries to-be to develop a testimony of all these. To me, these are spiritual matters, and spiritual criticism is antithetical to Alma 32/Moroni's Promise and conducive to the dreaded spirit of contention -- after all, he does use the word, "attack." So yes, when you attack Jospeh Smith in this regard, then by extension you attack the rest. Just a more focused application of "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

This is very different than trying to understand something that doesn't make sense in a disciplined way, whatever the discipline.

[bluebell]

I need to hear the context of the quote to judge my feelings on it. 

[Smiley McGee]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I would love to comment but I can't sit through the prior 32 minutes of his talk for proper context (and probably as set up by statements made by prior speakers) -- is there a transcript?

I searched for a transcript but couldn’t find one. The address was given eight days ago so it may be too early.

[manol]

11 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

“One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, whose prophet he is, and has been from the very foundation of the world, and will always be forever and ever.”

That does not sound to me like something Joseph Smith would have said. 

Imo it would be a huge mistake to put any man on that kind of pedestal.

Edited March 31, 2023 by manol

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, manol said:

That does not sound to me like something Joseph Smith would have said. 

Imo it would be a huge mistake to put any man on that kind of pedestal.

I think it depends on what the speaker meant.

It could be that he is referring to that verse in doctrine and covenants chapter 1 that says—

“whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same”.

Or he might be painting with a much broader brush. It’s hard to tell what he means with only that one snippet. 

[manol]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think it depends on what the speaker meant.

It could be that he is referring to that verse in doctrine and covenants chapter 1 that says—

“whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same”.

Or he might be painting with a much broader brush. It’s hard to tell what he means with only that one snippet. 

That verse is limited in scope, unlike the statement "One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ".   I do not think that is the kind of creed Joseph Smith would have wanted his followers adopting.

Edited March 31, 2023 by manol

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, manol said:

That verse is limited in scope, unlike the statement "One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ". 

 

 

But when you only read that one verse, is limited scope obvious? No, I don’t think it is. That limited scope is only obvious when you take the whole of our doctrine on prophets into account.

Likewise, I don’t know that we can say what the scope of that snippet is, without taking the whole of his address into account. Hopefully a transcript will be available soon.

Edited March 31, 2023 by bluebell

[teddyaware]

8 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

It really just sounds like a thing a person would say to consolidate power. It does not sound to me like a thing a good being would say or enforce.

That is, unless the Church is actually true and the prophecies of scripture that testify of its ultimate glorious victory over evil are going to be fulfilled. It’s going to be interesting to behold the crestfallen expressions on the naysayers’ faces when they realize they bet their lives on the wrong team. But isn’t that the reason why so many naysayers and former believers congregate on this board.? Are they not desperately trying to constantly reconvice themselves that the ringing echos of their former testimonies are untrue?

Edited March 31, 2023 by teddyaware

[Durangout]

Reminds me of another rather sad, unfortunate and doctrinally incorrect statement by another 70 where he said something to the effect of…You can replace the name of the Savior with The Church.  

Men and organizations are fallible.  God is not.  We worship God not men.

[manol]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don’t know that we can say what the scope of that snippet is, without taking the whole of his address into account. Hopefully a transcript will be available soon.

There is no need to wait for a transcript.  It is very easy to start watching the talk a couple of minutes before the timestamp @Smiley McGee indicated in order to get the context.  Here is the link cued up accordingly, watch for about two and a half minutes and the context will be clear:

https://youtu.be/tQ88GXmZvpQ?t=3925

Edited March 31, 2023 by manol

[Senator]

“I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself.”

-Joseph Smith

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, manol said:

There is no need to wait for a transcript.  It is very easy to start watching the talk a couple of minutes before the timestamp @Smiley McGee indicated in order to get the context.  Here is the link cued up accordingly, watch for about two and a half minutes and the context will be clear:

https://youtu.be/tQ88GXmZvpQ?t=3925

I’d want to watch the whole thing. I’ll save the link, thanks!

[Smiley McGee]

51 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

It’s going to be interesting to behold the crestfallen expressions on the naysayers’ faces when they realize they bet their lives on the wrong team.

LOL! You mean to tell me they won’t get to spend eternity with people who think their suffering is “interesting”? 

Edited March 31, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[JAHS]

13 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Apologies for messing up the title: To criticize Joseph is to Criticize God

In a recent prospective missionary devotional, Elder Kevin Pearson asserted the following as he closed his address: 

“One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, whose prophet he is, and has been from the very foundation of the world, and will always be forever and ever.” (see 1:07:15 of this link)

Interested to hear your thoughts on this transitive property of criticism.

[manol]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I’d want to watch the whole thing. I’ll save the link, thanks!

Okay.  I understand and respect your wanting the full context.

The two-minute lead-up to the statement @Smiley McGee quoted is praise of Joseph Smith from Section 135, then Elder Pearson bears his testimony of Joseph Smith, and then he says:

“One cannot criticize or attack Joseph without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, whose prophet he is, and has been from the very foundation of the world, and will always be forever and ever.” (emphasis mine)

If you find that the preceding hundred-and-something minutes significantly changes the meaning of that sentence from what it appears to be at face value, then maybe we can revisit this topic?  If you want to.  (For the record I'm a fan of Joseph Smith, just not as big a fan as Elder Pearson seems to be.)

 

Edited March 31, 2023 by manol