Elder Kevin Pearson: To

[pogi]

14 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Apologies for messing up the title: To criticize Joseph is to Criticize God

In a recent prospective missionary devotional, Elder Kevin Pearson asserted the following as he closed his address: 

“One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, whose prophet he is, and has been from the very foundation of the world, and will always be forever and ever.” (see 1:07:15 of this link)

Interested to hear your thoughts on this transitive property of criticism.

If further context doesn’t change the meaning of what he said - this is the kind of crap that sets people up for debilitating disillusionment.  I can only pray that God is greater than the reproach of mortal men and all their follies (prophet or not).

Why do so many insist on elevating prophets to such untouchable heights?  Has no one read the old-testament?

Edited March 31, 2023 by pogi

[jkwilliams]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

If further context doesn’t change the meaning of what he said - this is the kind of crap that sets people up for debilitating disillusionment.  I can only pray that God is greater than the reproach of mortal men and all their follies (prophet or not).

Why do so many insist on elevating prophets to such untouchable heights?  Has no one read the old-testament?

I find these kinds of statements baffling. It comes across as teaching a functional infallibility for prophets. I don’t know many church members who believe that, thankfully. As my dad always says, expect church leaders to make human mistakes, and you will rarely be disappointed. 

[Meadowchik]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I find these kinds of statements baffling. It comes across as teaching a functional infallibility for prophets. I don’t know many church members who believe that, thankfully. As my dad always says, expect church leaders to make human mistakes, and you will rarely be disappointed. 

If perfect love casts out all fear, it can handle humans being humans and not rely on them for total direction.

[Islander]

16 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Apologies for messing up the title: To criticize Joseph is to Criticize God

In a recent prospective missionary devotional, Elder Kevin Pearson asserted the following as he closed his address: 

“One cannot criticize or attack Joseph [Smith] without attacking God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ, whose prophet he is, and has been from the very foundation of the world, and will always be forever and ever.” (see 1:07:15 of this link)

Interested to hear your thoughts on this transitive property of criticism.

That is unbiblical. Joseph was a man and as such made some colossal mistakes in his lifetime. ALL men are fallible and sinful and have fallen short of the glory of God. He is not above any other man regardless of his calling as a prophet. Let's not forget that there are doctrines, spoken from the pulpit for decades, that now the church have gone to great lengths to distance itself from in recent years. So, either God lied or fallen men spoke out of their own fallenness. The idea that men are above reproach when at fault can not be found in the scriptures and seemed like a statement directed at strident critics of the prophet. 

 

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

I find these kinds of statements baffling. It comes across as teaching a functional infallibility for prophets. I don’t know many church members who believe that, thankfully. As my dad always says, expect church leaders to make human mistakes, and you will rarely be disappointed. 

Agreed.

An interesting comparison / contrast between Mormons and Catholics that I heard a few weeks ago:  Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible but they don’t believe it.  Mormons are taught that the Prophets is fallible but they don’t believe it.

[JAHS]

22 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Agreed.

An interesting comparison / contrast between Mormons and Catholics that I heard a few weeks ago:  Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible but they don’t believe it.  Mormons are taught that the Prophets is fallible but they don’t believe it.

Actually it's more like church critics think that we think they are infallible when most of us don't think that. 

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

 

Error

Edited March 31, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Smiley McGee]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Reference please, and context 

full recording of the address is linked in the OP. I couldn’t find a transcript. Address was 10 days ago so a transcript may still be in the works.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Pyreaux]

Having watched it in context: "mission is the most important thing", "serve with all your heart", "don't wait until the mission to get a testimony", "get a testimony of JS", "JS is central to the restoration", "you are witnesses of JS", lists JS deeds, tells personal anecdotes, "JS is central to the restoration", "JS will be attacked", tells a small positive biography and lists major accomplishments, "gain a testimony of JS" has been said repeatedly, "he's done more than any other man, save for Jesus", "I add my own personal witness", "and to attack or criticize JS is to criticize God" to me seems he means that he personally believes attacking/rejecting Joseph's bona fides as a prophet called of God is to criticize the God who called him also, critics attacking Joseph are fighting against God's prophet, and he is not explicitly saying that he made no mistakes. But it can certainly be taken that way, and hero worship can be dangerous to a missionary or investigator if they propped up a certain perception of Joseph and then face something that goes against that perception. Apart from being regaled with his heroic story, its better oi have a spiritual witness that he was a prophet and be ready to accept him despite flaws you either discover or are even lied to about by the attacking critics.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Pyreaux

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

full recording of the address is linked in the OP. I couldn’t find a transcript. Address was 10 days ago so a transcript may still be in the works.

Thanks! 👍

[3DOP]

18 hours ago, Durangout said:

Agreed.

An interesting comparison / contrast between Mormons and Catholics that I heard a few weeks ago:  Catholics are taught that the Pope is infallible but they don’t believe it.  Mormons are taught that the Prophets is fallible but they don’t believe it.

 

A quick bulletin...

Not to distract, but the Catholic Church teaches that the pope is rarely infallible. There are only two instances in 2,000 years of popes where one of them indisputably exercised doctrinal infallibility.

Some at the Council feared, correctly I believe, that the definition of papal infallibility would be widely misunderstood, both by the faithful, as well as non-Catholics.

That is just for the record. Back to regular programming.

[Durangout]

38 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

 

A quick bulletin...

Not to distract, but the Catholic Church teaches that the pope is rarely infallible. There are only two instances in 2,000 years of popes where one of them indisputably exercised doctrinal infallibility.

Some at the Council feared, correctly I believe, that the definition of papal infallibility would be widely misunderstood, both by the faithful, as well as non-Catholics.

That is just for the record. Back to regular programming.

Thank you for the clarification.  I did not mean to offend or misrepresent our Catholic brothers and sister.

[Navidad]

Well, I guess God must be pretty angry with me. In my long life I have preached many sermons about Old Testament priests, kings, and prophets and I have been in one way or the other cautiously critical of most of them!  I have also been angry with God a few times in my life. I guess there is no hope for me!

[3DOP]

3 hours ago, Durangout said:

Thank you for the clarification.  I did not mean to offend or misrepresent our Catholic brothers and sister.

I never thought so Durangout. I have heard that saying here before, and it IS a clever and valuable observation, especially if many both in, and especially out of the Catholic Church, have a much broader idea of papal infallibility, than the Catholic Church teaches. Your point is well taken, and is arguably applicable to the statement under discussion from Elder Pearson, who might be an example of the Latter-day Saint who acts and speaks as though the Prophet is/was infallible, when the LDS Church has never taught that. 

May God bless you and yours, as we approach ever closer to the commemoration of great events on which, if I am not mistaken, Catholics and Latter-day Saints are in essential agreement.

Rory 

Edited April 1, 2023 by 3DOP