Eve excelled over Adam in wisdom?

[telnetd]

Regarding this General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1999/10/what-it-means-to-be-a-daughter-of-god?lang=eng

"After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: "Blessed be the 
name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life 
I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

Eve made an even greater statement of visionary wisdom after leaving the Garden of 
Eden: "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never 
should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal 
life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

As daughters of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. 
Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

Was Eve given this greater wisdom because she ate first?

Are women equaling and even surpassing men in faith, morality, and commitment because 
Eve first ate from the forbidden tree or was it solely due to how God ordained it?

What is the secret citadel of men's inner strength and how or why does that prevent 
them from surpassing the women?

[MustardSeed]

13 minutes ago, telnetd said:

In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

Sounds like an opinion and not a fact.  Some women are more faithful than most men, some men are more faithful than most women. I have no doubt we have no data to prove anything in this regard. I am not sure what the value of this statement was.

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Regarding this General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1999/10/what-it-means-to-be-a-daughter-of-god?lang=eng

"After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: "Blessed be the 
name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life 
I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

Eve made an even greater statement of visionary wisdom after leaving the Garden of 
Eden: "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never 
should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal 
life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

As daughters of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. 
Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

Was Eve given this greater wisdom because she ate first?

Are women equaling and even surpassing men in faith, morality, and commitment because 
Eve first ate from the forbidden tree or was it solely due to how God ordained it?

What is the secret citadel of men's inner strength and how or why does that prevent 
them from surpassing the women?

Outside of the church it's the opposite, that's why women have been treated so badly for eons.

[pogi]

This is just another example of what has been discussed in the other thread on LDS men about how the church elevates women above men in terms of spirituality.  

This was my comment on the practice:

Quote

 

I think many women in the church view it as a palliative attempt to assuage the concerns of genuine inequity between the sexes in the church, and it rings incredibly hollow.  "You may not be able to hold leadership rolls, bless your own children, pass the sacrament, and everything you do is under the authority of men - but you are way more spiritual then us."  You only hear men say that...why is that?  The church both pedestalizes women and pushes them to the side at the same time, while the men go to work running the church. 

While it is a step up from the portrayal of women in the Bible and other Christian churches as the lower, more seductive and sinful sex responsible for our fallen state, and therefore must be under the authority and control of men as a consequence, and must remain silent at church.  And if they are to learn anything spiritual, "ask your husbands".   While it is a step up from that, it is damaging for women (and some men apparently) in other ways.

 

  

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Was Eve given this greater wisdom because she ate first?

No, she was wiser so she ate first. If the Fall isn’t the norm for all worlds she saw the plan more clearly…somehow.

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Are women equaling and even surpassing men in faith, morality, and commitment because 
Eve first ate from the forbidden tree or was it solely due to how God ordained it?

I’ve known too many horrible women to believe there is some kind of innate spiritual or moral superiority.

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

What is the secret citadel of men's inner strength and how or why does that prevent 
them from surpassing the women?

The what now?

[CV75]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Regarding this General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1999/10/what-it-means-to-be-a-daughter-of-god?lang=eng

"After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: "Blessed be the 
name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life 
I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

Eve made an even greater statement of visionary wisdom after leaving the Garden of 
Eden: "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never 
should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal 
life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

As daughters of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. 
Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

Was Eve given this greater wisdom because she ate first?

Are women equaling and even surpassing men in faith, morality, and commitment because 
Eve first ate from the forbidden tree or was it solely due to how God ordained it?

What is the secret citadel of men's inner strength and how or why does that prevent 
them from surpassing the women?

"Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality [same with men, but the audience is women and the intent to encourage them in their divinely gifted potential]. In this you equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment [and here's the condition] when truly converted to the gospel."

So, Adam and Eve's respective takes on their experience with agency had a "meet" effect and they could not have survived spiritually without sharing them. The secret citadel for inner strength is the same as Eve's.

Edited March 27, 2023 by CV75

[Durangout]

“Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when “

LOL. Pandering.

[Smiley McGee]

Delete

Edited March 27, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Smiley McGee]

delete

[rpn]

Isn't the talk about surpassing being a possibility, that no woman has to believe that men have more or are more inherently in gospel of Jesus Christ  (rather than that every woman surpasses men)?

[smac97]

9 hours ago, telnetd said:

Regarding this General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1999/10/what-it-means-to-be-a-daughter-of-god?lang=eng

"After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: "Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

Eve made an even greater statement of visionary wisdom after leaving the Garden of Eden: "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

As daughters of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope in his word."

Was Eve given this greater wisdom because she ate first?

I've never thought to "rank" one as being wiser than the other.  I'm not sure how we could even quantify such a thing, let alone reach an informed conclusion about it.

As I mentioned here: "I think Eve came to understand the need for the fall, as it would enable them to multiply and replenish."  That she reached this understanding before Adam speaks to her wisdom, even in an untried "innocent" state.  That she perceived this before Adam does not matter much to me, as I have always viewed them as true "partners," and hence not in competition with each other.

9 hours ago, telnetd said:

Are women equaling and even surpassing men in faith, morality, and commitment

I do not know that this is true.  It's too broad a statement.

9 hours ago, telnetd said:

because Eve first ate from the forbidden tree or was it solely due to how God ordained it?

I don't think so.

9 hours ago, telnetd said:

What is the secret citadel of men's inner strength and how or why does that prevent them from surpassing the women?

I don't think the objective is for one gender to collectively "surpass" the other.

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

Eve might have been more wise in that instance than Adam, but I don’t see why that would apply to every woman just by being a woman. 

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Durangout said:

“Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when “

LOL. Pandering.

Pandering to who though?  Most women in the church hate this kind of stuff. It generally causes feelings of low self worth.

The reason that Mother’s Day is probably the most hated Sunday of the year among women is becoming of all the “women are so wonderful” talks.

So again, who is he pandering to?

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

So again, who is he pandering to?

I think sometimes the men who say this stuff think they are being well received.  They think we need to hear it. That in and of itself is problematic- or at least indicative of the problem.  If we want to solve the problem of women being “less than” we don’t solve it with platitudes, we solve it with trusting them with what they are capable of. 

[Pyreaux]

13 hours ago, telnetd said:

Regarding this General Conference talk.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1999/10/what-it-means-to-be-a-daughter-of-god?lang=eng

"After the choice was made, Adam voiced this grateful expression: "Blessed be the 
name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life 
I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

Eve made an even greater statement of visionary wisdom after leaving the Garden of 
Eden: "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never 
should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal 
life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

As daughters of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. 
Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

Was Eve given this greater wisdom because she ate first?

Are women equaling and even surpassing men in faith, morality, and commitment because 
Eve first ate from the forbidden tree or was it solely due to how God ordained it?

What is the secret citadel of men's inner strength and how or why does that prevent 
them from surpassing the women?

Although Eve ate from the forbidden fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, the Jews think the Spirit of Wisdom had manifested as both sacred trees. As "wisdom" can be defined simply knowledge normally possessed and reserved for the gods, the elohim-angels (Prov 9:10; 30:1). Knowledge thus is related to wisdom, and knowledge can be seen as destructive (1 Cor 8:1). Oil of the Tree of Knowledge came in its fruit were "pleasant to the eye" to "make one wise" granting Eve the secret knowledge of the elohim-angels (Gen 2:6-7).

The Temple's anointing oil (Ex 28:41-43; 29:1-8; Ps 133:2) was a synthesized version of the fragrant oils of the Tree of Life, was applied to the head of the priestly messiahs "between his eyelids" (Talmud, b. Horayoth 12a). This was thought to open his eyes, giving sight, spiritual sight, prophecies, dreams, visions, the signs of the royal priesthood. 

The Enochian account identifies this as the receiving of the Spirit of Wisdom via the Tree of Knowledge/Wisdom, "The tree of Wisdom from which your old father and age mother [Adam and Eve], they who are your precursors, ate and came to know wisdom; and (consequently) their eyes were opened and they realized they were naked and (so) they were expelled from the garden." (1 Enoch 32:6).

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I think sometimes the men who say this stuff think they are being well received.  They think we need to hear it. That in and of itself is problematic- or at least indicative of the problem.  If we want to solve the problem of women being “less than” we don’t solve it with platitudes, we solve it with trusting them with what they are capable of. 

It kind of reminds me of all those studies that came out a few years ago that discovered how harmful undeserved praise was to children’s self esteem (and how much damage the self esteem movement did to kids in the 1980s and 1990s).

So many men (and I’m sure some women) think we need to hear it, like you said. Or they think they can solve women’s feelings of unworthiness by increasing praise. But being praised for something you are born as—with attributes and abilities you don’t personally see in yourself but which you are always being told all true women are supposed to have and do—isn’t helpful. It just makes you feel worse.

Being praised for being born wiser than men (like the OP quote seems to be doing) is undeserved and worthless praise.  It’s not supported by scripture or experience and so becomes meaningless.  It’s not the way to solve the problem, like you pointed out.  It makes the problem worse.

 

[pogi]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

It kind of reminds me of all those studies that came out a few years ago that discovered how harmful undeserved praise was to children’s self esteem (and how much damage the self esteem movement did to kids in the 1980s and 1990s).

So many men (and I’m sure some women) think we need to hear it, like you said. Or they think they can solve women’s feelings of unworthiness by increasing praise. But being praised for something you are born as—with attributes and abilities you don’t personally see in yourself but which you are always being told all true women are supposed to have and do—isn’t helpful. It just makes you feel worse.

Being praised for being born wiser than men (like the OP quote seems to be doing) is undeserved and worthless praise.  It’s not supported by scripture or experience and so becomes meaningless.  It’s not the way to solve the problem, like you pointed out.  It makes the problem worse.

The problem is that it sets up unrealistic expectations that mother's (many of which already struggle with 'mommy guilt') use to pile on top of all the other reasons they think they don't stack up.   It makes people feel bad about themselves for all the reasons that social media does - it can lead to comparing oneself against false portrayals of reality that are impossible to stack up against.   When all women in the church are perfect (according to social media and the brethren who back it up) it can lead to questions of "what is wrong with me? (toxic shame)"  "Why don't I feel like the supercharged-spiritual-power house that my leaders tell me I am supposed to be?"  

Edited March 28, 2023 by pogi

[bluebell]

24 minutes ago, pogi said:

The problem is that it sets up unrealistic expectations that mother's (many of which already struggle with 'mommy guilt') use to pile on top of all the other reasons they think they don't stack up.   It makes people feel bad about themselves for all the reasons that social media does - it can lead to comparing oneself against false portrayals of reality that are impossible to stack up against.   When all women in the church are perfect (according to social media and the brethren who back it up) it can lead to questions of "what is wrong with me? (toxic shame)"  "Why don't I feel like the supercharged-spiritual-power house that my leaders tell me I am supposed to be?"  

Yep. 

[Durangout]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

Pandering to who though?  Most women in the church hate this kind of stuff. It generally causes feelings of low self worth.

The reason that Mother’s Day is probably the most hated Sunday of the year among women is becoming of all the “women are so wonderful” talks.

So again, who is he pandering to?

To women of course.  I think we both agree that pandering is dumb and wrong.

 I’m not sure “most women hate this kind of stuff”.  I’ve heard plenty of women repeating it and love hearing it, but maybe my anecdotal info is biased?   By the same token, Could it be that you are projecting onto “most” women in the church?  I would love some way to objectively know the truth of the matter.

I think we can safely say the wives of the apostle / prophets like hearing it or they would put a stop to it.

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Yep. 

Totally agree.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Durangout said:

To women of course.  I think we both agree that pandering is dumb and wrong.

 I’m not sure “most women hate this kind of stuff”.  I’ve heard plenty of women repeating it and love hearing it, but maybe my anecdotal info is biased?   By the same token, Could it be that you are projecting onto “most” women in the church?  I would love some way to objectively know the truth of the matter.

I think we can safely say the wives of the apostle / prophets like hearing it or they would put a stop to it.

I could be projecting, though I don't really struggle with feelings of low self esteem surrounding things like mother's day talks or this kind of stuff.  I don't agree with them and I think it's kind of dumb so maybe that's why it doesn't affect me?  I don't know. 

So I'm not projecting my own feelings onto women when I say how much they hate hearing it.  I'm mostly going off of the many years of being in RS and being friends with members sisters (in 5 different states) where the feelings of inadequacy and the hating of Mother's Day Sunday in particular is a main and constant theme being discussed since I was in my 20s and noticed it (I'm 46 now).  I know more than one woman who refuses to go to church on Mother's Day because they hate the 'pandering" talks so much.

And I don't think we can safely say anything about the wives of our leaders.  Maybe you are different in your marriage and maybe they are different in theirs, but I know that my husband doesn't run his talks by me before he gives them, and neither does he ask my opinions about everything.  I don't feel safe implying that things about women that I don't have any support for, not even personal experience. 

[Maestrophil]

On 3/27/2023 at 9:20 AM, telnetd said:

As daughters of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. 
Surely the secret citadel of women's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass men, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

This welcomes the assumption that it is a one-way supposition - if it were to say:

As SONS of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. 
Surely the secret citadel of MEN's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass women, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

To me, if you do this, you can see that the "truly converted to the gospel" part is where any son or daughter of God can rise to a higher level, irrespective of gender.

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

This welcomes the assumption that it is a one-way supposition - if it were to say:

As SONS of God, you cannot imagine the divine potential within each of you. 
Surely the secret citadel of MEN's inner strength is spirituality. In this you 
equal and even surpass women, as you do in faith, morality, and commitment when 
truly converted to the gospel. You have "more trust in the Lord [and] more hope 
in his word."

To me, if you do this, you can see that the "truly converted to the gospel" part is where any son or daughter of God can rise to a higher level, irrespective of gender.

Can you imagine the out-cry if they even suggested that men’s spirituality surpassed women’s?  I must admit;  It would be a lot of fun to watch.

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I could be projecting, though I don't really struggle with feelings of low self esteem surrounding things like mother's day talks or this kind of stuff.  I don't agree with them and I think it's kind of dumb so maybe that's why it doesn't affect me?  I don't know. 

So I'm not projecting my own feelings onto women when I say how much they hate hearing it.  I'm mostly going off of the many years of being in RS and being friends with members sisters (in 5 different states) where the feelings of inadequacy and the hating of Mother's Day Sunday in particular is a main and constant theme being discussed since I was in my 20s and noticed it (I'm 46 now).  I know more than one woman who refuses to go to church on Mother's Day because they hate the 'pandering" talks so much.

And I don't think we can safely say anything about the wives of our leaders.  Maybe you are different in your marriage and maybe they are different in theirs, but I know that my husband doesn't run his talks by me before he gives them, and neither does he ask my opinions about everything.  I don't feel safe implying that things about women that I don't have any support for, not even personal experience. 

I have heard women express their dislike for Mother’s Day.  I absolutely love Father’s Day.  It’s easily my favorite Sunday all year.

Please help me understand why women hate “their” day so badly.

[carbon dioxide]

Generally men prefer meat over fruit.  Adam was probably waiting for a burger while Eve was content with an apple or whatever it was.  Tempting me with an orange or apple is not going get me to do anything.  A 16 ounce steak or a 1/3 burger might get some movement.

Edited March 28, 2023 by carbon dioxide