The Problem w LDSMen

[Durangout]

This was an excellent and important discussion.  It addresses so many issues that I see within our unique society.

Thoughts?

[Dario_M]

What is this for Grug topic? Are we going again with that stupid man masculinity and females need to be  obediend to their husband nonsens? 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dario_M

[Calm]

I listened to the first minute.  As far as I can tell, he’s not talking about the Latter-day Saint faith community I know and love.  “Where are all the leaders?”  “Where is all the masculinity?”  “Is Elder’s Quorum even working?”  Really?  Unless that beginning is not a clue of what is to come, I think I will likely sit out this discussion. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[The Nehor]

Ugh, I hate these discussions.

Instead of trying to reclaim largely mythical boomer masculinity why don’t we study masculinity more holistically and kill this garbage about rugged manly men and getting back to that stereotype.

Look to the early 1900s and further back. You have the songs to friends lost in battle. You have David and Johnathan. You have deep emotional, intimate, and vulnerable friendships between men throughout history which so many think we can get back with wing nights, a hunting trip, and watching the game together. The big problem isn’t men not wanting connection. They crave it. The problem is we have exalted the unemotional loner type as an ideal, made emotional vulnerability into weakness, and combined that with making homosexuality the worst thing and then are surprised men are emotional cripples.

[MustardSeed]

^^ voted up for knee whore (um, voice to text and no I’m not going to correct it ha ha) because of his thoughts, nothing against your video.  I’m going to listen to the video on my long drive home from work today. I’m sure I will be interested to know what stands out to you from the video.

Edited March 21, 2023 by MustardSeed

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

What is this for Grug topic? Are we going again with that stupid man masculinity and females need to be  obediend to their husband nonsens? 

Sorry, I don’t really understand what you are trying to say.  The vid said nothing like what it seems like you suggest.  Maybe try re-stating your point?

[Durangout]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I listened to the first minute.  As far as I can tell, he’s not talking about the Latter-day Saint faith community I know and love.  “Where are all the leaders?”  “Where is all the masculinity?”  “Is Elder’s Quorum even working?”  Really?  Unless that beginning is not a clue of what is to come, I think I will likely sit out this discussion. 

Watching / listening to more than “the first minute” would probably give you a fairer representation of what is being said.  Here’s just a snippet:

He is right about men not being encouraged to be real men in the church.

He says that every man needs...

1) A battle to fight
2) An adventure to live
3) A beauty to love

If these things are ignored, EQ falls flat, and it does.   It does not satisfy men’s needs; especially since the change that combined elders and the HPs.

Regarding “where’s the men leading”…yhat comment came from women in The Church that messaged him asking.

I personally talked to 6 men that watched this—they all thought it had much to consider and got much right.

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Durangout

[Dario_M]

15 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Sorry, I don’t really understand what you are trying to say.  The vid said nothing like what it seems like you suggest.  Maybe try re-stating your point?

Well the video starts allready with masculinity and all those nonsens. And how man should behave in the LDS church or so?

I have my belly stuffed full of that sort of things i'm really sorry. 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Dario_M

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Durangout said:

He is right about men not being encouraged to be real men in the church.

I’ll pass.

Quote

Regarding “where’s the men leading”…yhat comment came from women in The Church that messaged him asking.

Shocker I know, but I think women can be wrong or misguided on occasion just like men.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Calm

[bluebell]

I’m trying to listen to it. It’s long, which I always find annoying no matter what the topic.  I understand some of what they’re saying and then at the same time some of what they’re saying just sounds kind of dumb. 

I had to stop for now, but I’ll try to come back and listen to more of it later. 

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

^^ voted up for knee whore

This better not awaken anything in me. I already have enough kinks and fetishes.

[pogi]

My brother is really into John Eldridge (the author he is getting all his ideas from).  I have read his book.  While I liked some of it, I think a lot of it is just messed up.  

I can't agree with the way he boxes masculinity and femininity and how he tries to speak for all men in what a real man should look like and what the core desires/motivations of their heart should be.  I can't tolerate such a black and white perspective of what a man is and should be like. 

He seems to equate masculinity with strength.  He is not speaking necessarily of physical strength but CEO type leadership strength, and even confrontational strength.  I am sorry but strength in leadership and other virtues is not a trait or characteristic that is unique to masculinity.    

He equates masculinity with taking charge, wanting battle, being adventurous, and non-submissive.  I guess that means that the women/feminine should play the opposite role of not taking leadership roles, not being able to fight for their cause in battle, not being adventurous, and of course being submissive to the non-submissive men/masculine.   I know very feminine leaders, very feminine women who don't back down from a battle and stand up for their beliefs, very feminine women who love adventure, and are non-submissive.   These are all fine traits to have, but they shouldn't be understood to be the ideals of masculinity or femininity.  Just as important are the traits of being a good follower, of being a nurturer, of being submissive, of being a peace-maker, etc. 

He seems to identify his masculinity with Christ's confrontational nature with the Pharisees and turning over tables, and describes Christ as a "warrior" type of masculinity.   While those traits and strengths are valuable when bridled and used properly, they are not limited to masculinity, and certainly don't define the core character and strengths of Christ who received the name the Prince of Peace and was the epitome of submissiveness as he taught us to turn the other cheek, to give your cloak when are sewed for your coat, and of course the infamous "not my will, but thine be done".  Christ displayed what Eldridge would describe as feminine (unbefitting of a "man") traits in many, many ways, and I view those as incredibly important strengths of his character too, and important traits for all women and men to aspire to.   

I also really dislike how he disparages kindness (or "niceness") suggesting that it is not a virtue.   Of course it is!  It doesn't mean that there is never a time and a season for other things to manifest too, but it is still a virtue and attribute of charity. 

What I would like to hear is a definition of "masculinity" or "femininity" that everyone will agree on - and then to suggest that men should identify more with the masculine is problematic when I think that all men are on a pretty huge spectrum.  They are all real men, no matter how they come.  

[blackstrap]

Men in the church should restrict themselves to traditional roles like setting up tables and chairs for meetings and parties, taking crying children out into the foyer, and participating with the EQ moving Company , etc. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

3 hours ago, Durangout said:

He says that every man needs...
1) A battle to fight
2) An adventure to live
3) A beauty to love
If these things are ignored, EQ falls flat, and it does.

 

Heh.  Reminds me of the absolute best, most memorable EQ activity I've ever had.  We met at property a brother owned, where he had set up a gun range, and went shooting.  Probably a dozen elders all banging away with their scary black rifles and shotguns and handguns.

The cops showed up right in the middle of live fire because a neighbor complained.  We worked things out with the cops, slightly modified our angle of fire, and went back to shooting.  (If I expanded that out into the 4-5 paragraphs it deserved, y'all would see there was sufficient battle and adventure.)

They also brought donuts, and I had my very first maple bacon donut ever.  Covers #3 more than most other experiences I've had in life. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[MustardSeed]

OK, lots of thoughts about this podcast episode.  
 

first of all, I want to offer an overall reaction- I felt like the entire episode was fairly disjointed and all over the map. In addition to introducing so many topics, I felt like so many of the terms were not defined clearly. Terms like masculinity. Nice. Strength. It was confusing to try to understand what the agenda was until I finally decided that perhaps the agenda was to sell this guys retreats.  
 

I’d like to share some things that I agreed with in the podcast. I don’t think they did a good job of articulating this, but I do think that there is a reality that men may have plenty to talk about regarding mixed messages that media sends regarding whether men should be tough and rugged “Yellowstone“ types, or whether they should be pretty manicured “queer eye for the straight Guy“ types. This has nothing to do with being LDS IMO. I can appreciate the discussion that men might have around this topic. That said, I don’t think it has anything to do with being LDS.

 

I can also get on board with the sentiment that it is valuable for men to have “man time”. Be it shooting, camping, bowling, or taco truck adventures, I think it’s tremendously valuable for partners to encourage each other to do independent activities that don’t involve the other partner at times. This needs to be negotiated between couples and is different from couples a couple however, I do see the value of it. This being included in this podcast suggests that it has something to do with being LDS. I totally disagree. There is nothing that the church teaches that suggests that men should be home every Saturday and should not pursue personal interests IMO. 
(it was mildly annoying, and almost laughable that they suggested that women suffer from a fear of abandonment. It was stated, as if it is a universal fear of women. That’s crap.) 

 

I would say the thing that I agreed most with on this podcast was the very first comment around how boring elders quorum is- not because I’ve ever attended but because I’m married to a man has been attending EQ for 40 years And has been scrolling his phone as long as he’s had one. I’ve heard from more than one source that there’s not a lot of effort being put into preparation for the EQ lessons-and if the Sunday school teachers are any indication of how elders quorum goes I have to say I would probably scroll my phone every Sunday as well. Sorry, I’m sure there are outstanding EQ teachers out there and I’m sure There are several readers here who have perfect examples of outstanding EQ experiences. Of course. Maybe we can move to your ward. 
 

there’s really too much to comment on, like I said, this podcast is all over the place. 
learn to say no.  Ok. 
Stop posing and being fake. Ok. 
Don’t be nice.  Be Kind.  Ok

largely, I think this podcast comes across as a bunch of psycho babble. And that’s coming from a therapist. This guy is a business major and he’s found a way to make money off of the Saints. I’m not a fan.

… but I do think it would be really cool if we brought back the sports of the 1970s and 80s and let nonmembers participate like used to be. Let the people fight. Isn’t that what makes a man a man? (Sarcasm)- but yeah, our stake baseball field is dusty.  If not sports, lets find another way to breathe life into church! And also, the podcast was right, after the youth program, and after missions, and after marriage, the program becomes “the family“. That’s gonna be hard for single folks and it’s hard when kids go from lots of structure to the nebulous form of the family. Be really cool if adults still had retreats and camp outs and fun activities to create bonding and fellowship . 
 

By the way, the idea that men are not leading in the context of church is laughable. Maybe there are men who are not leading well at home, I can only speak to mine. But in a patriarchal church, the idea of men being absent and not knowing how to lead is a little disingenuous IMO. 
 

Oh and one more thing- the comment that the elders quorum is at highest risk for suicide – I think that comment was fairly misleading. I don’t think it’s the EQ  increasing suicidality. The age and gender demo, sure. 

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by MustardSeed

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Durangout said:

He says that every man needs...

1) A battle to fight
2) An adventure to live
3) A beauty to love

Is that really exclusive to men though? And do all men care equally about this credo?

Creating a nice Procrustean bed for each gender sounds nice as long as you personally fit into the standard model.

[jkwilliams]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I’ll pass.

Shocker I know, but I think women can be wrong or misguided on occasion just like men.

What do they mean by “real men”? People I hear using that term seem to have weirdly narrow definitions that seem rather specific to North American culture. I’ll pass too. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Is that really exclusive to men though? And do all men care equally about this credo?

Creating a nice Procrustean bed for each gender sounds nice as long as you personally fit into the standard model.

Sounds like his “real men” come out of a Victorian romance novel. Hard pass from me. 

[MustardSeed]

18 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Sounds like his “real men” come out of a Victorian romance novel. Hard pass from me. 

They don’t ever really clarify what masculinity is. The dude makes some sort of psychobabble references to real men being the type of people that live the bigger picture rather than the smaller picture. It sounded like retreat hype to me . not a lot of clarity in this podcast- but plenty of “feel good” banter to separate a fool from his money to attend a retreat.

[MustardSeed]

I’m being pretty negative and I don’t want to be. I do want to assert that if a man is having a negative experience emotionally or spiritually, he should be able to talk about that. I’m not making that particularly easy. I just don’t trust people who are trying to sell things.

I do get that there are a lot of men who are disillusioned, not really understanding what the world wants from them. I don’t think the podcast helps. 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I’m being pretty negative and I don’t want to be. I do want to assert that if a man is having a negative experience emotionally or spiritually, he should be able to talk about that. I’m not making that particularly easy. I just don’t trust people who are trying to sell things.

I do get that there are a lot of men who are disillusioned, not really understanding what the world wants from them. I don’t think the podcast helps. 

That is my position.  Life being life, given the increased pace of cultural change due to tech improvements (ease of travel and communication especially), there are going to be issues.  My grandparents were marveling at the speed of changeback when I was a kid and there was a massive difference of quality in the sense we got telephones, cars, TV, flying etc as commonplace in their lifetimes.  Now I would say tech is growing in the amount it can do and speed, which makes so many things more accessible, so I see it as a more quantity issue at this point…I have no doubt there is a significant part of humanity, male and female or other, that feels unanchored.  And few large organizations imo are great at responding to this type of need.

But to help, realistic appraisals as well as listening need to take place.  And while I don’t rule out profit making ventures fulfilling those needs in some way, the approach that ramps up and then offers a solution for cash has me cautious and usually uninterested.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

I haven't had time to view the speaker yet. One thing I will say is I do feel lonely in the church whenever I'm there. I would also suggest that you women not womensplain the way you always tell us not to mansplain. Perhaps take a better look at what he is saying.

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 

Heh.  Reminds me of the absolute best, most memorable EQ activity I've ever had.  We met at property a brother owned, where he had set up a gun range, and went shooting.  Probably a dozen elders all banging away with their scary black rifles and shotguns and handguns.

The cops showed up right in the middle of live fire because a neighbor complained.  We worked things out with the cops, slightly modified our angle of fire, and went back to shooting.  (If I expanded that out into the 4-5 paragraphs it deserved, y'all would see there was sufficient battle and adventure.)

They also brought donuts, and I had my very first maple bacon donut ever.  Covers #3 more than most other experiences I've had in life. 

Certainly nothing wrong with a little more adventure in Elders quorum.  The problem is suggesting that one is not a real man if they are not adventurous.  It is also wrong to suggest that such traits should be limited to the men/masculine.  My wife grew up incredibly jealous of her brother who was in Boy Scouts and got to go camping and rock climbing etc. while she sold cookies.  The feminine often loves adventure too!   

His book and ideas are regurgitated fairytale Disneyesque portrayals of women and men where the men are the brave adventurous hero’s in battle to win the heart of the beautiful (primarily valued for her beauty) yet passive, submissive and helpless princess who faints at the sight of trouble. 

[MustardSeed]

6 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I haven't had time to view the speaker yet. One thing I will say is I do feel lonely in the church whenever I'm there. I would also suggest that you women not womensplain the way you always tell us not to mansplain. Perhaps take a better look at what he is saying.

 

Haha!  Fair.  No women should comment. However, he does make assumptions about what “women want” and what “women feel.  I’ll stand by that commentary. 
additionally, I invite you to listen before commenting. He will no doubt find things you like, and find things you don’t.

Edited March 22, 2023 by MustardSeed

[rodheadlee]

7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Haha!  Fair.  No women should comment. However, he does make assumptions about what “women want” and what “women feel.  I’ll stand by that commentary. 
additionally, I invite you to listen before commenting. He will no doubt find things you like, and find things you don’t.

Women should comment but take a more nuanced look at the situation. 

Those three things listed maybe in our DNA.

1) A battle to fight 

2)An adventure to live

3) A beauty to love 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My Patti is beautiful because she tolerated 30k miles of offshore sailing. Well, one reason.