The Problem w LDSMen

[Vanguard]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I edited my post.  Maybe that helps, but until you define what you mean by masculine, how can I tell you if I think such exist or don’t.

It is like asking me if I like the color red.  Unless I know what color you are thinking about when you say “red”, the answer is yes and no.  I love some colors that have the label red and others I don’t, a few I even hate.

If there are such traits, I think we can agree they wouldn't be something that reside exclusively with males. And they would be traits that are characterological and not those differences that stem from a different physicality. Your example of 'writing in the snow while peeing' reminded me of an old joke -

An old man and his lawyer have a meeting with an IRS agent.

They sit down in his office as the agent pulls out the man's tax records. "it says that the majority of your income is made by gambling, how do you manage that?". The man replies "I'll show you; I will bet you $1000 that I can bite my own eyeball." The agent thinks a minute and then agrees to the bet. The man pops out his glass eye and chomps down on it. The agent is surprised and disappointed. The man then says "you didn't know I had a fake eye, so I'll give you another chance; double or nothing that I can bite my other eye!". The tax agent thinks that of course he can't have two fake eyes, so he agrees. The old man pops out his dentures and chomps them down on his other eye. The agent is distraught, how did he fall for that? Seeing the agent upset the old man has another offer: " tell ya what, double or nothing one more time that I can stand on one end of your desk, piss into the trash can on the other side without getting a drop on the desk." the tax agent looks at his oversized 8 foot long desk and figures there's no way he can do this, so he takes the bet. The man unzips, gives it a good try, but ends up pissing all over the agent's desk. The tax agent looks up smiling that he finally won, but then sees the lawyer shaking his head in disbelief. "what's wrong with you" he asked. The lawyer responds "just before we walked in the door he bet me $10000 that he could piss all over your desk and you'd be happy about it."

Sorry. I couldn't resist. ;o

[Vanguard]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

So at the moment…do I agree there are masculine qualities?   Yes and no.

I just noticed this last line. Why do you say 'yes'? Do you have any examples? As I think on it more, maybe there are certain shared characterological qualities that depending on the circumstance would be better expressed by males? As in war? What do you think?

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I just noticed this last line. Why do you say 'yes'? Do you have any examples? As I think on it more, maybe there are certain shared characterological qualities that depending on the circumstance would be better expressed by males? As in war? What do you think?

Vanguard, you seem to be asking me to put in the work of defining what red is when you are asking the question.  I am not going to spend an hour or more (knowing me) giving you stuff that may or may not be relevant when you have given me so little to work with.  How about you start defining and coming up with examples so I get the direction you are heading in.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

The definition needs to be inclusive not exclusive.

Definitions are by definition, exclusive.  By defining what something is, you are excluding what it is not.  I think that measuring stick of masculinity and femininity needs to be left out of an inclusive and worship centered church.  If you want to have a more purpose filled, fun, and interesting Elders quorum, that is great, so do I - but lets not make it about masculinity and what "real men" need. 

2 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

PS I don't know who John Eldridge is.

He is the guy that wrote the book (Wild at Heart) that started this whole conversation being discussed in the OP. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by pogi

[Vanguard]

Just now, Calm said:

Vanguard, you seem to be asking me to put in the work of defining what red is when you are asking the question.  I am not going to spend an hour or more (knowing me) giving you stuff that may or may not be relevant when you have given me so little to work with.  How about you start defining and coming up with examples so I get the direction you are heading in.

Calm - I'm also grappling with the concept. Remember, I said initially that I'm having a hard time describing such qualities. You're the one who said "yes and no" in regards to said qualities. I'm only asking if anything comes to mind? It would not require an hour for you to suggest a possibility even if not well thought out. We are both in agreement there may well be said qualities. In my most recent post I offered up a potential way of looking at it (i.e., shared qualities that may be better expressed by males in certain circumstances such as war) but you haven't anything to say about that?

And no comment about my joke?!! ; ) 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Calm - I'm also grappling with the concept. Remember, I said initially that I'm having a hard time describing such qualities. You're the one who said "yes and no" in regards to said qualities. I'm only asking if anything comes to mind? It would not require an hour for you to suggest a possibility even if not well thought out. We are both in agreement there may well be said qualities. In my most recent post I offered up a potential way of looking at it (i.e., shared qualities that may be better expressed by males in certain circumstances such as war) but you haven't anything to say about that?

And no comment about my joke?!! ; ) 

Like I said above, the closest I got to a masculine only quality was writing one’s name in the snow, but I am open to the possibility there are others.  My mind just isn’t coming up with any right now.  I think I need something to jumpstart the thought process and if you can’t provide it, for now I am stalled out.  Sorry 

added:  how dare autocorrect change a common “stalled” to “stalked”! That’s as bad as constantly changing my “added” to “padded”.  Just doesn’t make sense.  Urgh…

Edited March 23, 2023 by Calm

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

the closest I got to a masculine only quality was writing one’s name in the snow

For only $12.99 you can fulfill all of your childhood dreams, and you too can write your name in the snow. 

Behold, the Shewee:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/ref=pa_sp_atf_aps_sr_pg1_1?ie=UTF8&adId=A10215541UOQI5ZFFZGE7&qualifier=1679524368&id=6477445365797725&widgetName=sp_atf&url=%2FUrination-Reusable-Silicone-Foolproof-Companion%2Fdp%2FB089LP5F93%2Fref%3Dsr_1_2_sspa%3Fcrid%3D3UZR2ULVH7D5X%26keywords%3Dshewee%26qid%3D1679524368%26sprefix%3Dshewee%2Caps%2C1123%26sr%3D8-2-spons%26psc%3D1

[Vanguard]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Like I said above, the closest I got to a masculine only quality was writing one’s name in the snow, but I am open to the possibility there are others.  My mind just isn’t coming up with any right now.  I think I need something to jumpstart the thought process and if you can’t provide it, for now I am stalked out.  Sorry 

Ok. My stance is taking shape as we speak. At this juncture, I cannot think of a single characterological quality that is held exclusively by males. Perhaps we all share the same ones in varying degrees based on the individual and not determined by the sex of said individual. What do you (or anyone?) think about the idea that some shared qualities might be more effectively expressed by males (or in other instances by females) such as courage during battle?  

[pogi]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

I guess it's all in the definition.

Some examples would be Christopher Columbus, Ben Franklin, Ernest Shackleton. I'm sure many arguments could be held over this. Er um, discussions

If by "alpha" you mean leader - sure there are alpha males.  But that is not an exclusively masculine trait, nor is it something that should necessarily be aspired to and doesn't diminish the value of the follower/doer. 

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

For only $12.99 you can fulfill all of your childhood dreams, and you too can write your name in the snow. 

Behold, the Shewee:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/ref=pa_sp_atf_aps_sr_pg1_1?ie=UTF8&adId=A10215541UOQI5ZFFZGE7&qualifier=1679524368&id=6477445365797725&widgetName=sp_atf&url=%2FUrination-Reusable-Silicone-Foolproof-Companion%2Fdp%2FB089LP5F93%2Fref%3Dsr_1_2_sspa%3Fcrid%3D3UZR2ULVH7D5X%26keywords%3Dshewee%26qid%3D1679524368%26sprefix%3Dshewee%2Caps%2C1123%26sr%3D8-2-spons%26psc%3D1

I have seen these and my first and only thought is “ew!”

Because after you use it, you get to lug around a contraption that you just peed in.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have seen these and my first and only thought is “ew!”

Because after you use it, you get to lug around a contraption that you just peed in.

My mother in law gave my wife one of these as a Christmas gift for her to include in our emergency kit. It wasn’t intended as a joke but we still laugh about it all the time.   I guess the ability to pee standing up is important for emergencies.  I could actually see how it could come in handy during an emergency while traveling on the interstate.

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Ok. My stance is taking shape as we speak. At this juncture, I cannot think of a single characterological quality that is held exclusively by males. Perhaps we all share the same ones in varying degrees based on the individual and not determined by the sex of said individual. What do you (or anyone?) think about the idea that some shared qualities might be more effectively expressed by males (or in other instances by females) such as courage during battle?  

Courage in battle is usually defined by two things. The first is morale (the belief in the cause, that the cause is winnable, that our leader/officer has some idea of what they are doing, that you are going to be able to eat and have ammunition, etc.) which keeps people invested in the overall campaign. The second is cohesion which is the bond between the people you are fighting with. Sometimes this is natural such as fighting with a group of people from your home town and sometimes it is trained into you. Cohesion is what makes it shameful to flee and leave your friends to die and fear of shame is one of the few things that can regularly be stronger than fear of death.

Individual courage of the sort you see in movies by heroes is generally detested by everyone else and is often actively harmful to cohesion. The “that jackass is going to get us all killed” thing. If it isn’t tempered by discipline it is often a liability.

I don’t know if men or women are more likely to display courage in battle.

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

It’s an interesting topic. Like, what is the difference between Ben Franklin and Marie Curie that makes him an alpha male but her not?

Y chromosome 

[Vanguard]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Courage in battle is usually defined by two things. The first is morale (the belief in the cause, that the cause is winnable, that our leader/officer has some idea of what they are doing, that you are going to be able to eat and have ammunition, etc.) which keeps people invested in the overall campaign. The second is cohesion which is the bond between the people you are fighting with. Sometimes this is natural such as fighting with a group of people from your home town and sometimes it is trained into you. Cohesion is what makes it shameful to flee and leave your friends to die and fear of shame is one of the few things that can regularly be stronger than fear of death.

Individual courage of the sort you see in movies by heroes is generally detested by everyone else and is often actively harmful to cohesion. The “that jackass is going to get us all killed” thing. If it isn’t tempered by discipline it is often a liability.

I don’t know if men or women are more likely to display courage in battle.

My point is not that men are more likely to display courage (however we want to define it) in war but rather - all else being equal - they might be more effective than women in accomplishing what they are tasked with doing. Perhaps what makes this so is that, again, - all else being equal - their physicality will render them more capable of victory in war than a woman's physicality. If that's the case, it makes sense we would want to encourage to a degree the concept of courage (and especially as it pertains to battle in all of its forms) in men. Does that make sense? 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

And no comment about my joke?!! ; ) 

I was being kind.  
 

Must be a male thing.   

Edited March 23, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

For only $12.99 you can fulfill all of your childhood dreams, and you too can write your name in the snow. 

Behold, the Shewee:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/ref=pa_sp_atf_aps_sr_pg1_1?

How did I know even that wasn’t going to be an absolute.  

Edited March 23, 2023 by Calm

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

But there isn’t a definition. Just people who supposedly fit the description.

One thing is certain if you have to describe yourself as an alpha male you are not one.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

Ok. My stance is taking shape as we speak. At this juncture, I cannot think of a single characterological quality that is held exclusively by males. Perhaps we all share the same ones in varying degrees based on the individual and not determined by the sex of said individual. What do you (or anyone?) think about the idea that some shared qualities might be more effectively expressed by males (or in other instances by females) such as courage during battle?  

Courage during battle is, I assume, being able to act effectively under fire.  I am not asking this in a challenging way, but just for data to work with as I am wondering about your choice…are you aware of evidence that men are less likely to freeze under fire or run away, etc than women?  If not, do you mean something else by “effectively expressed” or “courage during battle”?

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

One thing is certain if you have to describe yourself as an alpha male you are not one.

I've found that fits with so many things! People can be confident in who they are, but bragging about it usually shows you are not that thing 

[Pyreaux]

2 hours ago, Vanguard said:

And no comment about my joke?!! ; ) 

Its good, I might have heard it before, but I understood "piss" to be a form of vulgarity and at one time used to be censored on TV, but it's also in the Bible, so... (1 Samuel 25:22)

Quote

21 minutes ago, Rain said:

I've found that fits with so many things! People can be confident in who they are, but bragging about it usually shows you are not that thing

Like celebs who brag they are good tippers usually aren't, those that are usually don't tell others.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

My mother in law gave my wife one of these as a Christmas gift for her to include in our emergency kit. It wasn’t intended as a joke but we still laugh about it all the time.   I guess the ability to pee standing up is important for emergencies.  I could actually see how it could come in handy during an emergency while traveling on the interstate.

Not exposing one’s butt when on the side of the road would be nicer.

Also means you don’t have to leave the tent in the middle of the night or a storm, but apparently it needs some practice to get right…(just refreshed my memories of what it was likely back packing with Dad in my youth).

[Vanguard]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was being kind.  
 

Must be a male thing.   

Ha! There's a difference! Men get good humor! ;o

Edited March 23, 2023 by Vanguard

[Vanguard]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Courage during battle is, I assume, being able to act effectively under fire.  I am not asking this in a challenging way, but just for data to work with as I am wondering about your choice…are you aware of evidence that men are less likely to freeze under fire or run away, etc than women?  If not, do you mean something else by “effectively expressed” or “courage during battle”?

I don't define courage in that way. I define courage as the moral/characterological strength to endure when threatened in some way (or words to that effect). If all else is equal characterologically between the sexes regards to courage (I believe it is) then the only difference is the physicality between the two sexes and it stands to reason that a man will fare better than a woman in battle. It reminds me of the issue a few years ago regards to professional tennis. John McEnroe had laid down the gauntlet by saying Serena William was not the best tennis player in the world although she had won more grand slams than literally anyone. John's point was that all else being equal, Serena would not be able to win against any male currently ranked in the top 200. In other words, their (men's) physicality made the difference. And so I believe it is in battle.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Y chromosome 

So an alpha male and an alpha female would essentially be the same? (Trying to make sure I get what you are saying). 

[Ragerunner]

Not a fan of this video. I check out a few other videos to see what his general thought process was. That made me even less of a fan.