The Problem w LDSMen

[Hamilton Porter]

23 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

No, this isn’t correct. I believe that men and women should be equal and always have been equal in the eyes of God. But I also believe that the covenant relationship between husband and wife and the patriarchal order established by God, as contained in the scriptures, does not make women unequal with men. I believe that it’s just a matter of different rolls. 

I also have no problem with the expansion of women’s rights and opportunities in education, employment, voting, owning land, etc. But I do have a problem with society (and now the church) dismantling the patriarchal order established by God. 

And as I said, I see zero evidence that the pendulum is swing back towards the middle. It’s still swinging full speed toward women ruling over men and usurping their God given authority. In fact the pendulum is swinging faster in this direction than ever since President Nelson has taken over. 

I agree with the first part of your post. I'm all for equal rights and opportunities for men and women. But don't mess with our religion, and don't mess with hundreds of millions of years of biological evolution and sex differentiation.

Where we differ is that I believe what the church is currently doing is just right.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

21 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Feminism has made women easier to sleep with.

21 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

There are a lot of loosy-goosy women who enjoy sleeping with a wide range of men, and the sexual revolution removed the slut label for doing so,

Very true. 

This is a serious consequence of the feminist movement and sexual revolution. Widespread fornication, lasciviousness, and whoredoms. That and the wholesale slaughter of the unborn via elective abortion that has accompanied it. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

4 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Where we differ is that I believe what the church is currently doing is just right.

So you don’t see it as a problem that the church is rejecting the teachings in the scriptures and changing the ordinances of the temple in the process?

[Hamilton Porter]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Listening to the podcast, they're talking about how men don't connect doing things, the guest said, "Men need men". Funnily, my husband is on a guys golf trip that he goes on every year. You would not believe how they all look forward to this trip. It's my husband, his two friends, my three sons, and two of their friends that all go. And don't ever mention for them to take their wives, that just never goes well. I think it's very important for men to do things together, so I believe what the guy said. I envy how fun they have together. While they are away I do something with the two friend's wives. And it's usually a craft, maybe a movie and dinner. But it's constrained sometimes and I don't have a lot in common but we've done this for years.  

I do agree with the host on this show, that it would be a good idea for the men in the church to be able to hang out doing stuff, they mentioned going shooting. The church really doesn't have something for men like they do for the Relief Society. Except maybe men's basketball. They use to have baseball too, and my husband loved that, a long with basketball. But that's not the same as other activities really. They have fathers/sons camp outs, at least in my old ward they did. And they use to have women's sports too.

In other churches I read their calendars sometimes, and they have groups of men go to breakfast/coffee and also bible studies. I guess that works too. 

I remember when the men had brats (hot dogs) at the outdoor pavilion right before the priesthood session. Don't know if it's still happening in my newer ward. 

Has the church simplified so much now that the joy has been sucked out??

I'm not active right now so maybe it's still there. Joy as in, not everything has to be centered on Christ does it? I wonder if Christ feels like it's overkill as well. 

Anyway, still listening to the podcast, and I do empathize with some things they're saying on how men need things, that currently may not be there.

 

There is less community in general in this country. In my area, often only single men attend activities like Institute because single women all bond with each other, while men don't.

[Hamilton Porter]

4 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So you don’t see it as a problem that the church is rejecting the teachings in the scriptures and changing the ordinances of the temple in the process?

The church has had to change a lot of temple ordinances to make it palatable to more people. Sometimes I'm sad some of it is gone, but there is no original temple ordinance. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

there is no original temple ordinance. 

Wasn’t there an original endowment given as best as possible in the Red Brick store and then systemized by Brigham Young prior to being administered to the entire church? Wouldn’t this be the original endowment ordinance? 

[Hamilton Porter]

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Wasn’t there an original endowment given as best as possible in the Red Brick store and then systemized by Brigham Young prior to being administered to the entire church? Wouldn’t this be the original endowment ordinance? 

The modern endowment is an amalgamation of elements of several ancient temples (Babylonian, Biblical, etc.)

[Grug the Neanderthal]

Just now, Hamilton Porter said:

The modern endowment is an amalgamation of elements of several ancient temples (Babylonian, Biblical, etc.)

I disagree. I believe that the modern endowment was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith specifically for this last dispensation.

39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.
42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof, and the place whereon it shall be built.

D&C 124

[Hamilton Porter]

6 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

I disagree. I believe that the modern endowment was given by revelation from God to Joseph Smith specifically for this last dispensation.

39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.
40 And verily I say unto you, let this house be built unto my name, that I may reveal mine ordinances therein unto my people;
41 For I deign to reveal unto my church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fulness of times.
42 And I will show unto my servant Joseph all things pertaining to this house, and the priesthood thereof, and the place whereon it shall be built.

D&C 124

What was revealed to Joseph Smith was different from the ancient temple. Just like what's revealed to RMN differs from what was revealed to Joseph Smith.

[bluebell]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Listening to the podcast, they're talking about how men don't connect doing things, the guest said, "Men need men". Funnily, my husband is on a guys golf trip that he goes on every year. You would not believe how they all look forward to this trip. It's my husband, his two friends, my three sons, and two of their friends that all go. And don't ever mention for them to take their wives, that just never goes well. I think it's very important for men to do things together, so I believe what the guy said. I envy how fun they have together. While they are away I do something with the two friend's wives. And it's usually a craft, maybe a movie and dinner. But it's constrained sometimes and I don't have a lot in common but we've done this for years.  

I do agree with the host on this show, that it would be a good idea for the men in the church to be able to hang out doing stuff, they mentioned going shooting. The church really doesn't have something for men like they do for the Relief Society. Except maybe men's basketball. They use to have baseball too, and my husband loved that, a long with basketball. But that's not the same as other activities really. They have fathers/sons camp outs, at least in my old ward they did. And they use to have women's sports too.

In other churches I read their calendars sometimes, and they have groups of men go to breakfast/coffee and also bible studies. I guess that works too. 

I remember when the men had brats (hot dogs) at the outdoor pavilion right before the priesthood session. Don't know if it's still happening in my newer ward. 

Has the church simplified so much now that the joy has been sucked out??

I'm not active right now so maybe it's still there. Joy as in, not everything has to be centered on Christ does it? I wonder if Christ feels like it's overkill as well. 

Anyway, still listening to the podcast, and I do empathize with some things they're saying on how men need things, that currently may not be there.

 

Lots of wards have EQ activities but not all. I think it would be beneficial to require them like they do the RS activities.

The used to do them in my ward a couple of EQ presidencies ago and they called them “manification” nights just to be goofy. They would go shooting or eat BBQ or blow things up at a member’s house. Stuff like that. I think it’s dumb they stopped.

My stake also still does adults sports every week at the stake center but I guess hardly anyone goes. 

[MustardSeed]

9 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Lots of wards have EQ activities but not all. I think it would be beneficial to require them like they do the RS activities.

The used to do them in my ward a couple of EQ presidencies ago and they called them “manification” nights just to be goofy. They would go shooting or eat BBQ or blow things up at a member’s house. Stuff like that. I think it’s dumb they stopped.

My stake also still does adults sports every week at the stake center but I guess hardly anyone goes. 

Pickleball is the thing now.  Not as an organized competitive sport though. 
 

Men’s basketball is still big here but you have to be a member to play.  Too many fights apparently- 

I don’t have time for women’s events, not sure my husband would be interested in adding to his calendar either. 

 

 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

What was revealed to Joseph Smith was different from the ancient temple.

Referring to the ordinances of the temple that were revealed to him in Nauvoo, Joseph Smith said:

"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.”

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

what's revealed to RMN differs from what was revealed to Joseph Smith.

I don’t really see any evidence that the changes to the temple ordinances were received by revelation from God. I think at best, God authorized these changes because of the hardness of the people’s hearts and their rejection of the fullness of the gospel. And at worst, the brethren are changing the ordinances completely on their own against the will of God. Could be somewhere in between, too. 

[Hamilton Porter]

21 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles.”

The ordinances, but not necessarily the specific wording.

[Grug the Neanderthal]

15 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

The ordinances, but not necessarily the specific wording.

So in your opinion its perfectly fine to change or eliminate covenants, change how the ordinance is performed, and significantly change what is taught within the ordinance? In your opinion this doesn't constitute changing the ordinances?

[Grug the Neanderthal]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

So it sounds like the Saturday Evening Session is something of a wildcard.

Yeah, it's wild. No more cherished priesthood session for fathers and sons to go to together every 6 months. Can't have that now can we. But we can unretire the gender specific meetings one time for the women, that's totally cool. But then when it should be the men's turn again (at least in theory), back to being retired again. It's not PC to have an all men's meeting anymore. Too much bad publicity. Definitely doesn't look like a "revelatory change" to me.

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

I don't see this going away.

I think's it's already gone. Both of the quotes you shared were from before the 2019 temple overhaul where the endowment and sealing ordinances were changed to remove this teaching and covenant. 

[Grug the Neanderthal]

9 hours ago, Durangout said:

Because of the feminism that has infiltrated every level of the church, men are subservient to women.  Go read the prophecies of Isaiah where in the last days he says “women shall rule over them”.

Yep. And not only did Isaiah prophecy that this would happen to the men of Israel in the last days, and that this was a tragedy, Paul taught that it was wrong for the woman to "usurp authority over the man." It has also been my observation that most modern women don't actually want to be equal partners with their husbands, they want to be superior to their husbands.  They want to be in charge and for their husbands to do whatever they tell them. 

The Family Proclamation has it right were it says:

"By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners."

By divine design, husbands and wives are to have different roles, but help one another as equal partners.

 

[Dario_M]

14 hours ago, Durangout said:

  
 

So no, he is not teaching his kids emotional / mental resiliency.  It takes a real man / woman to teach that to their kids.

Well..  that's not really your business anyway isn't it. They are not your kids so. So maybe you should......mind your own matters.

Plus... you are judging your neigbor while you don't even know anything about what he is teaching his kids. 

I do believe that the reason why you have post this video is just to get confirmation from everybody that it is okay to act like a jerk (i actually find that you allready act like one anyway). There is obviously a reason behind this topic and the video you showed us. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Dario_M

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

I’d put money on the interviewee having a Grindr account. 

I wouldn’t bet against it.

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Yep. And not only did Isaiah prophecy that this would happen to the men of Israel in the last days, and that this was a tragedy, Paul taught that it was wrong for the woman to "usurp authority over the man." It has also been my observation that most modern women don't actually want to be equal partners with their husbands, they want to be superior to their husbands.  They want to be in charge and for their husbands to do whatever they tell them. 

No.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Feminism has made women easier to sleep with. That seems to be the consensus.

Jordan Peterson said that it only benefits the top five percentage of men, because 95% of women sleep with those 5%. I seriously doubt that. There are a lot of loosy-goosy women who enjoy sleeping with a wide range of men, and the sexual revolution removed the slut label for doing so, making intimacy (in all its levels) easier to access for men.

95% of Jordan Peterson’s statistics are made up on the spot.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

Very true. 

This is a serious consequence of the feminist movement and sexual revolution. Widespread fornication, lasciviousness, and whoredoms. That and the wholesale slaughter of the unborn via elective abortion that has accompanied it. 

You may want to check those numbers. Induced abortions have been around for all of recorded history. While it is hard to get the stats per capita abortions are probably at a low ebb primarily due to the relative access to pretty reliable birth control. Abortion was not invented in the 1960s.The “wholesale slaughter of the unborn” has been a human constant and is not a unique feature of the Last Days.

Also fornication is going down, the average age of first sexual experience is up, and these lamentations of the wicked sexual world are kind of silly. It is like people thinking violent crime is more common when it isn’t. It is a myth. Admittedly the things that are mitigating people from having sexual experiences may not be good (porn, isolation) but we should really look at the main problems and not just echo the laments of the past as if nothing has changed.

Also whoredoms are very underrated.

[Dario_M]

It's fine if you wanna be a real man. But don't forse that image (that all man must be like that) up to other man who don't feel like it. That's the thing that is so wrong about the TS. And also about the video as well. For the rest i can not care less if a man want's to be a REAL MAN but don't harm others with that kind of behavoir. Because harming people is against the 10 commandmands. Also shooting aninals. WRONG Also not conform the 10 commandmands. Commandmand 6 says: "And you should not kill" 

So the video is hypocrite as well. Because those two man represents themselves as "perfect members" of the church. They are so happy. So they must have done everything right. With their magic underwear on. And everyone in the church would think that those man would do everything the right way.  Because...we all know that...if we are always happy we do everything on the right way. But if we are unhappy we always do things the wrong way and it's our fault.... because we must have sin to much. So we are not worthy enough to receive all the blessing. 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Dario_M

[Hamilton Porter]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

95% of Jordan Peterson’s statistics are made up on the spot.

He's generally accurate on non-political topics.

[Hamilton Porter]

7 hours ago, Grug the Neanderthal said:

So in your opinion its perfectly fine to change or eliminate covenants, change how the ordinance is performed, and significantly change what is taught within the ordinance? In your opinion this doesn't constitute changing the ordinances?

Sometimes people can't handle the elements of the ancient temple (e.g. self-curses) because they're too weird to eyes and ears of dumb modern westerners.

God took away the United Order for the same reason.

That's just one reason these ordinances change. That's why we have continuing revelation.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Grug the Neanderthal]

2 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Sometimes people can't handle the elements of the ancient temple (e.g. self-curses) because they're too weird to eyes and ears of dumb modern westerners.

Yes, I completely agree. But this doesn’t answer my question. In your opinion is it perfectly fine to change or eliminate covenants, change how the ordinance is performed, and significantly change what is taught within the ordinance? In your opinion this doesn't constitute changing the ordinances? (which Joseph Smith said should not be done)

4 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

God took away the United Order for the same reason.

God took away the United Order because the majority of the saints rejected it and where breaking their covenants. The D&C is clear that this was bad, not good.