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The Problem w LDSMen


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I’m loving the host’s background. Generic house plant, electric guitar, Hugh Nibley book, ball cap, CRT book, bag of protein powder.

I can’t tell if that’s supposed to be a metaphor for the podcast topic of mixed up men or his solution for a fruitful EQ lesson. But I’m inspired to host a men’s club where we discuss our favorite passages from One Eternal Round while downing creatine shakes and end with a guitar solo of Come Come Ye Saints. 

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Masculinity and femininity can't really be defined exclusively - the immediate response to that is "I've known X women who exhibit Y masculine trait" or vice versa. If one wants to define masculinity and femininity, one must distinguish between the general and the particular. Masculinity would then consist of traits or virtues which men have an easier time obtaining, or are culturally encouraged to attain. Women would naturally be able to manifest those same traits/virtues, but with less emphasis or less prevalently. It's kind of like the standard distributions of male and female upper-body strength. The right-tail of the female curve overlaps with the left-tail of the male curve, but the peaks are clearly distinct, and thus one can say that men generally have more upper-body strength while being open to particular women being stronger than the average. This would be the only way in which masculinity or femininity could be constructed. 

In practice, however, I doubt there is room in The Discourse for this. Those virtues or traits which were sex-coded were so coded because they corresponded to gender roles, and those are absolutely freaking verboten in the Current Year. It's not possible to have masculine or feminine virtues if there are no ideal outcomes that are distinctly masculine or feminine. Masculinity and femininity are vestigial concepts if a society doesn't have clear definitions of what men and women should be. If you want masculinity and femininity, you need to be willing to state what men and women should be. 

How many of you would be willing to take up that torch?

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2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

What do they mean by “real men”? People I hear using that term seem to have weirdly narrow definitions that seem rather specific to North American culture. I’ll pass too. 

“Real men” is basically a measuring stick to hurt those who cannot or will not measure up to the standard. There is a reason this kind of masculinity is described as “toxic” and “fragile”

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2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If I was running our Elder’s Quorum, I would at least once a month dedicate 15 minutes to go outside and do manly things to increase masculinity like chopping some wood, setting a fire, or just blow something up.  Get the testosterone flowing through the veins of the Quorum.  But I am not running the Quorum in my ward and if asked to run it, I will just mention this and that should keep me out of this calling that I really have no desire of having. 

Increase masculinity? Is it going to run out?

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16 hours ago, bluebell said:

I’m trying to listen to it. It’s long, which I always find annoying no matter what the topic.  I understand some of what they’re saying and then at the same time some of what they’re saying just sounds kind of dumb. 

I had to stop for now, but I’ll try to come back and listen to more of it later. 

I had to skip through it. The little I heard, spells out that men are hiding their true feelings a lot. Like he mentions about the leader (?) that walks in a classroom decked out in a nice suit and tie and a big smile on their face shaking (?) your hands and the guest on this talk show said he'd really like to know the real person behind all that persona. Or something to that affect from my listening. 

And that men are dead inside, and I'll just say it's not only men that feel that way, but women too, but maybe more women speak up about how they feel unlike men? And I believe that the church is partly to blame, because of the pressure of becoming like Christ, or becoming perfect. And not being their "real" selves. 

That can cause a feeling of just having your personality die inside, your true self. 

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10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Real men” is basically a measuring stick to hurt those who cannot or will not measure up to the standard. There is a reason this kind of masculinity is described as “toxic” and “fragile”

Maybe what "real men" really want is a group hug.

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13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Real men” is basically a measuring stick to hurt those who cannot or will not measure up to the standard. There is a reason this kind of masculinity is described as “toxic” and “fragile”

Yep, what all people (both masculine and feminine) really want is a sense of belonging.  This measuring stick of masculinity is toxic and damaging to the sense of universal belonging in a ward or Elders quorum for all the reasons you mention. 

Edited by pogi
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12 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Those three things listed maybe in our DNA.

1) A battle to fight 

2)An adventure to live

3) A beauty to love 

I guess the INFP (Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving) men  just don't make the cut with their strong aversion to conflict.  Many others would prefer a book with a cup of tea over real adventure.  What should we do with them? 

Poor P. Allen Smith is doomed:

P. Allen Smith's Roses & Rose Garden - Flower Magazine

Edited by pogi
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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

“Real men” is basically a measuring stick to hurt those who cannot or will not measure up to the standard. There is a reason this kind of masculinity is described as “toxic” and “fragile”

If there were such a thing as “real men,” they wouldn’t need to keep telling us what it is. We would just know and be. 

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Look I really believe there is a place to address the real concerns of men who feel out of sorts, who are depressed, who lack passion, who don’t feel as though they can assert themselves, who don’t know how to relate to women, etc. I have worked with many men with the struggles, and anecdotally, I will say that those things are more personally rooted in history, first family stuff,, etc., less about what is or isn’t going on inEQ.  this guy is selling a fluffy program.  He’s market targeting LDS men.  That’s low hanging fruit in my opinion. He pushes my buttons because I grew up being indoctrinated by my uncle on a regular basis at the dinner table, with him ranting about the priestcraft of paid, charismatic speakers in the church. He was employed by the church in the Institute program, and was an outstanding teacher. Many of his colleagues in his opinion exploded opportunity to make money in the field by being traveling speakers, and becoming very popular and selling tickets. I’m sure you remember those days. 
It nauseated him, and he was very outspoken about it. I’m sure he recognized that he had the opportunity to do the same thing but that his morality wouldn’t allow him to do so. He had a large family and a very small income. The money would’ve helped. I think he was envious of those who justified doing what he would not allow himself to do. 

so I grew up with an evil lie towards people who make money on the Saints, particularly with fluffy, feel good, disjointed, charismatic, woo woo stuff like this .  Nuff said, off my high horse. 

Edited by MustardSeed
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22 hours ago, Durangout said:

This was an excellent and important discussion.  It addresses so many issues that I see within our unique society.

Thoughts?

I am a convert to the church, so I have a totally different upbringing and history, outside of the church. I tend to agree that in my experience (20 years or so), most men in the church are the quiet, soft, mild mannered guys. Typically, raised by quiet, soft, mild mannered fathers and they will raise children that exhibit the same character traits.  

I don't see anything wrong, implicitly, with the discussion. In my experience, again, nobody I've known have been interested in the activities that I engage in for the most part. I am an avid outdoorsman and have practiced martial arts for 50 years to this date. However, I have not been able to entice any men from the church to go along to any of those activities. I agree in part that most men in the church are trapped into a very monochromatic and bland life experience, driven by existential inertia. 

The culture does not like when men get together and talk about what men need or want. Unfortunately, there are some very strident voices out there that have termed anything "man" as a bad thing. A sad state of affair, especially when we consider that the world we live in, by far, has been tamed and shaped by extraordinary men. Men that have endured the most extreme of circumstances, for the enjoyment of all humanity. I think that the spirit of the trailblazers has been bread out of the American men.

I suggest that, in part, that is why some young men are delaying marriage and family. They see what awaits them and they think they would like to put that off a bit before they fall into the inertia of life mapped for them.

Just some thoughts.

 

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

If there were such a thing as “real men,” they wouldn’t need to keep telling us what it is. We would just know and be. 

It is like the alpha male thing which is named after a wolf thing that was based on wolves in captivity and was thus a kind of dysfunctional wolf.

If you call yourself an alpha you aren’t.

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I agree that men are struggling in America today.  This is not unique to our church, and I don't think the church is to blame.  It is not a problem of gentle and mild-mannered culture.  That is not a bad thing.  There certainly should be room for those who love adventure etc. but we should not denigrate the gentle culture in trying to make room for more adventurous men.  Why can't they both belong?  The issue of masculinity and cultural traits is missing the mark of men's struggles.    I just don't think the answer is to inject some standard of masculinity and increase testosterone levels.  That is the wrong direction.

For anyone interested in this topic, I highly recommend listening to this episode of Radio West where Richard Reeves discusses his book 'Of Boys and Men'.  I thought it was a really excellent discussion of the struggles men are facing today and the societal implications.  He is careful to address the resistance that many might have towards this topic as they may perceive it as shifting and turning the focus away from women's issues.  He makes really valid points to consider. 

https://radiowest.kuer.org/show/radiowest/2022-10-05/richard-reeves-boys-and-men

 

Edited by pogi
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12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is like the alpha male thing which is named after a wolf thing that was based on wolves in captivity and was thus a kind of dysfunctional wolf.

If you call yourself an alpha you aren’t.

I don't know. Self-described "alpha males" like Nick Adams are an endless source of hilarity. 

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@Dario_M I am ok if you didn't like my post,  but honestly, even a native English speaker would have had a hard time reading my post and giving any thought to it in the time you downvoted it.  I barely had time to post it before you downvoted.  Like I said, I am ok with the downvote, but if you do it so quickly then it makes me feel you really don't want to understand what I feel and that will help me determine my future talking with you.

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