Murder-Suicide of Family in Enoch, Utah

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

No not fair. But after tragedies people normally manage to eventually find some happiness in life as they adjust to their new situation. 

That was sarcasm. It was a vindictive act. An “If I am not happy no one can be” act. That is usually the mindset behind taking out others before killing yourself.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Ah, I see where you are getting that from now.  As I understand it, he was charged with that because he drove his car over a cliff with his kids in it.  They are considering that act as child abuse.

In my head, I remember hearing that he was avoiding child abuse charges, it was a couple of days ago broadcast on the news. Now I'm going to go back and read what was said hopefully. But knowing me I could have heard wrong or imagined hearing it, or confused with another situation. One that did come to mind when I was listening to it while running around the house, is the one that happened in Utah with the Brown's. https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/plunge-off-300-foot-cliff-injures-parents-of-piano-group-the-5-browns

ETA: I am sorry if I've got it totally wrong though and thought he drove off to avoid child abuse charges. It's good to first check the facts, and not spread mistaken understandings. 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Tacenda

[LoudmouthMormon]

Ugh.   High-shock-value stories like this aside, the vast vast majority of suicides only take the person committing it, and the vast vast majority of suicide attempts are not successful.  

Stories like this, (and the umpteen others happening every day involving only one person that don't make the news), remind me that mental health is pretty darn important.  If that sort of darkness comes your way, please give reaching out a try before deciding to solve the problem permanently.  Despite what we want to believe, such darkness can come to any of us.

No really - reach out to someone before making a decision like that.  Every day in the US, there are 1000 more folks who understand such things and won't look any differently at you for struggling.  

[mrmarklin]

16 hours ago, Rain said:

I would say that's only a small piece.  An awful lot of people get divorced without going to that extreme.

Edit: maybe you mean instead now we know why she filed?

Yes, that's what I mean.  Something was wrong with the guy, and she couldn't solve it.

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Yes, that's what I mean.  Something was wrong with the guy, and she couldn't solve it.

I can't imagine what her family went through, I like this photo though. 

[Kenngo1969]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

Vicious hummingbirds…doesn’t seem possible.  Added:  apparently hummingbirds are very territorial 

If you had to eat half your own weight in calories every day just to stay alive, you might be at least a little bit territorial yourself.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by Kenngo1969

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, pogi said:

“The bones tell me…nothing!”

“Finger TEST! Finger TEST!”

[rodheadlee]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I read some sheep entrails this morning and got the same reading. The omens are consistent.

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to get everyone to believe he did not exist.

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to get everyone to believe he did not exist.

The second greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to get someone to believe that he was terrorizing hummingbirds like the pagan deities of old to create omens.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to get everyone to believe he did not exist.

I don't believe in a devil. Just people that act like a devil or take the d out of devil and are evil. 

[Kenngo1969]

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe in a devil. Just people that act like a devil or take the d out of devil and are evil. 

I'm not sure that believing that some people, inherently, are evil is an improvement over believing in a being to whose evil temptations those people succumb.

2 Nephi 2:

Quote

 

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one (i.e., good/God) or the other (i.e., evil/the devil). ...

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

 

 

[Meadowchik]

The killer's family posted a glowing obituary of him. How is that respectful of the victims and their loved ones?

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The killer's family posted a glowing obituary of him. How is that respectful of the victims and their loved ones?

Wow no words, I'll have to try to read it without getting sick. I found it but it's not opening up, the obit.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The killer's family posted a glowing obituary of him. How is that respectful of the victims and their loved ones?

perhaps they were referring to a time before things went bad.

[bluebell]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The killer's family posted a glowing obituary of him. How is that respectful of the victims and their loved ones?

It's not, but I'm sure they are hurting too.  Grief is a messy thing.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, JAHS said:

perhaps they were referring to a time before things went bad.

I'm sure this may be the case, too bad this guy did what he did, perhaps he felt like this earth life sucked and he needed to get everyone out of it as well. But I'm probably giving him too much credit especially when he wouldn't let his wife get away with divorcing him is probably the reason, if he isn't happy ain't nobody gonna be.

[Meadowchik]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's not, but I'm sure they are hurting too.  Grief is a messy thing.

Absolutely they must be, but somehow this feels like they are enabling the abuse even after the familial annihilation.

[Dario_M]

Omg how horible. God our lord. What is thid for kind of world. ✝️🙏✝️🙏✝️

[The Nehor]

23 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Absolutely they must be, but somehow this feels like they are enabling the abuse even after the familial annihilation.

There is no abuse to enable.

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Absolutely they must be, but somehow this feels like they are enabling the abuse even after the familial annihilation.

If they knew about the abuse and turned a blind eye or enabled the husband to feel comfortable committing it, then I agree.  I don't know that they did any of those things though so I don't know where their mind and heart is.

For me it's especially hard to understand considering that he killed their grandchildren and not just a spouse (that they might not have been close too).

[Meadowchik]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There is no abuse to enable.

Abuse can be enabled after the fact. On the community scale, what message does it send to abused spouses when  like this are lauded in this way?

It's not a helpful message.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Abuse can be enabled after the fact. On the community scale, what message does it send to abused spouses when  like this are lauded in this way?

It's not a helpful message.

If there was ongoing abuse that precipitated the divorce I might agree with you but I haven’t seen anything that suggests that was the case.

I am, however, not really okay telling a grieving family that they can’t share nice memories about their dead son because theoretically it might enable abuse by whom? Encouraging additional murder/suicides? Doubtful. This falls into “let it go” territory for me.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

Abuse can be enabled after the fact. On the community scale, what message does it send to abused spouses when  like this are lauded in this way?

It's not a helpful message.

I'm not going to say it's a helpful message, but I also doubt it'll really encourage people to also commit a murder-suicide. More likely, and what I'm seeing is that it'll be a source of denouncement that if anything will make the family and community more defensive than help anyone come to healthy terms about what happened

It would also be more accurate to say part of his family gave a glowing message. Likely because abusers are rarely singly bad. They tend to have traits, particularly outward facing traits that are enjoyable, loveable, and possibly valuable/respectable outside a smaller circle who know their deeper problems. If the abuse was more psychological/emotional than physical for years, they may have never seen it...until they all died. And that's world shattering. I wouldn't be surprised if a number are just in straight denial right now from the shock, that they're struggling to juxtapose the kid they loved and the man that murdered his children and wife. And they still need space to grieve that part of the man. People unfortunately often grieve publicly nowadays....and apparently no one had the forethought to think to tell them you may want to keep this very private as much as possible (or more likely, they just ignored any contrary advice). 

Again, I don't say this to justify the family's action. But I can relate to a far milder degree. My grandfather was a child molester and he died finally divorced after abusing a grandchild and slowly losing his mind from dementia. There was a weird balance as his health deteriorated between most not wanting anything to do with him and a few feeling a need to care for him to some degree. Just about everyone wished he'd just die. A year, I think, after he finally did one of my aunts (his daughter) posted a short  loving death date anniversary post ending it with something about him being in heaven. Literally no one in my very large extended family gave a like or comment about it. I doubt anyone beyond her thought he was there.  We ignored it, shook our heads, and moved on in whatever ways we had prior with dealing with who he was to us. 

At some point the people who thought this was a good idea will have to come to terms with what their child, brother, uncle, cousin, neighbor, friend, did. They'll have to accept or at least struggle with the dissonance of what that means and what they likely missed. I doubt it'll be today. And I doubt public shaming will get them there faster. Personally I'll do the same as I did for my aunt. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by BlueDreams

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

If there was ongoing abuse that precipitated the divorce I might agree with you but I haven’t seen anything that suggests that was the case.

I am, however, not really okay telling a grieving family that they can’t share nice memories about their dead son because theoretically it might enable abuse by whom? Encouraging additional murder/suicides? Doubtful. This falls into “let it go” territory for me.

Tell that to women contemplating divorce.

I shouldn't have to spell out that murder is abuse. 

The way a community responds to such abuse does matter.

[Meadowchik]

38 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I'm not going to say it's a helpful message, but I also doubt it'll really encourage people to also commit a murder-suicide. More likely, and what I'm seeing is that it'll be a source of denouncement that if anything will make the family and community more defensive than help anyone come to healthy terms about what happened

It would also be more accurate to say part of his family gave a glowing message. Likely because abusers are rarely singly bad. They tend to have traits, particularly outward facing traits that are enjoyable, loveable, and possibly valuable/respectable outside a smaller circle who know their deeper problems. If the abuse was more psychological/emotional than physical for years, they may have never seen it...until they all died. And that's world shattering. I wouldn't be surprised if a number are just in straight denial right now from the shock, that they're struggling to juxtapose the kid they loved and the man that murdered his children and wife. And they still need space to grieve that part of the man. People unfortunately often grieve publicly nowadays....and apparently no one had the forethought to think to tell them you may want to keep this very private as much as possible (or more likely, they just ignored any contrary advice). 

Again, I don't say this to justify the family's action. But I can relate to a far milder degree. My grandfather was a child molester and he died finally divorced after abusing a grandchild and slowly losing his mind from dementia. There was a weird balance as his health deteriorated between most not wanting anything to do with him and a few feeling a need to care for him to some degree. Just about everyone wished he'd just die. A year, I think, after he finally did one of my aunts (his daughter) posted a short  loving death date anniversary post ending it with something about him being in heaven. Literally no one in my very large extended family gave a like or comment about it. I doubt anyone beyond her thought he was there.  We ignored it, shook our heads, and moved on in whatever ways we had prior with dealing with who he was to us. 

At some point the people who thought this was a good idea will have to come to terms with what their child, brother, uncle, cousin, neighbor, friend, did. They'll have to accept or at least struggle with the dissonance of what that means and what they likely missed. I doubt it'll be today. And I doubt public shaming will get them there faster. Personally I'll do the same as I did for my aunt. 

 

 

With luv,

BD

 

It's not shaming that I am concerned with. It's respect for the victims and concern that preventable deaths happened.

I do hope that as these families will be just as vocal about supporting women and children in crisis.