Seeing Christ with Physical Eyes

[Navidad]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

How exactly would one discern the difference?

Sorry, it was never my intent for this to turn into an apologetic for, defense of, or metaphysical musings about such experiences. I simply wanted to know what the church position was/is on the same. What I think, or what metaphysics demonstrates is not relevant to the original post (at least as I intended it). If you all want to take it in that direction, that is fine. It simply was not my intent.

This is the summary paragraph of my original post -

"I don't remember any other LDS leader indicating that he had seen Christ "in the flesh." I greatly respect this teacher, but am bringing the question here. Next time I am alone with him I will ask him for clarification as well. Are his comments "orthodox" in LDS practice? If so, what indeed are the scriptural prerequisites for such an experience? In testimonies, I have heard members say they have literally seen spirits of the dead and angels, but never Christ. I appreciate your comments on this. Is there an official church teaching on this subject?" 

It was not my intent to fall into the hole of debating the existence of visions, the nature of such, or whether Juan Diego saw Mary, Cristeros saw angels on white horses during the Cristero War, whether Luther really had his choir loft vision or not, what Paul saw on the road to Damascus, or if Lorenzo Snow literally saw Christ. If I participated in causing the digression, I apologize. I am probably most interested in what, if any are the church teachings about prerequisites for a person to have such a vision. The validity, nature, and psychological/theological integration of such visions might be a wonderful topic for another thread.

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Navidad

[Hamba Tuhan]

19 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I am probably most interested in what, if any are the church teachings about prerequisites for a person to have such a vision.

I am personally not aware of any 'Church teachings about prerequisites'. If anything, the story of the First Vision suggests that theophanies are available to just about anybody.

[CV75]

15 hours ago, Navidad said:

I don't have questions about the BOM . . . I have doubts. I am specifically interested in post 1830 sightings of Christ in the flesh with physical eyes. Dreams and visions are not the same as literally seeing the post-ascension Christ as I would see you in a meeting. I think President Hinckley was the president to which I was referring, but I am not sure. But most importantly, it doesn't matter what I think or believe. What I am asking about is what the church teaches about such encounters between a literal embodied Christ and a specific unique human being. I don't have a vision, hierophany, or theophany of my wife when she walks into the room. That latter instance is what I am interested in learning more about.

Regarding your interest in post 1830 sightings of Christ in the flesh with physical eyes, I don’t think there are any. Regarding your more important question about what the Church teaches about such encounters between a literal embodied Christ and a specific unique human being, there aren’t any abut that, either. But as you indicated, your classmate may have some reference to offer as you follow up with them.

However, there is a wonderful series called “Hear Him” which uses another of the five physical senses, literally/temporally and spiritually/symbolically, teaching how to follow Him better and more often. By extrapolation, I suppose we can “See Him” also. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/collection/hear-him?lang=eng

Our canon is chock-full of teachings on how we can “See Him” in various ways and junctures along the path of salvation.

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am probably most interested in what, if any are the church teachings about prerequisites for a person to have such a vision.

The closest thing I can think of is D&C 67:10-12 and D&C 84:19-22

Quote

10 And again, verily I say unto you that it is your privilege, and a ^apromise I give unto you that have been ordained unto this ministry, that inasmuch as you ^bstrip yourselves from ^cjealousies and ^dfears, and ^ehumble yourselves before me, for ye are not sufficiently humble, the ^fveil shall be rent and you shall ^gsee me and know that I am—not with the carnal neither natural mind, but with the spiritual.

11 For no ^aman has seen God at any time in the flesh, except quickened by the Spirit of God.

12 Neither can any ^anatural man abide the presence of God, neither after the carnal mind.

Quote

 

19 And this greater ^apriesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the ^bkey of the ^cmysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the ^dknowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ^aordinances thereof, the power of ^bgodliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the ^aauthority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is ^bnot manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no ^aman can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

By the way, D&C 84:19-22 has caused a bit of discussion on what it means since it could be read that you have to have the Melchizedek Priesthood before you can see God.  And Joseph Smith definitely didn't have that priesthood when he had the first vision.  Here's an Ensign article that discusses this question - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1985/12/i-have-a-question/i-have-a-question?lang=eng. 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

My personal experiences exactly match Paul's description: 'whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth'.

Also @Navidad

Totally agree, and right on schedule, Interpreter came out yesterday with an article on eyewitnesses, and how "unreliable" they can be, and the complexity of the issue.

Cognitive science and its continuing influence on the LDS paradigm is leading, I think, toward a more post modern way of seeing the importance of the subjective and the absurdity of trying to make religion correspond to science.

As I think you are saying, and I AM saying,  human EXPERIENCE of reality is never " objective" nor can it be.

We all see the world differently, as filtered through our bodies and the previous pool of personal experience we have individually had.

We all know about PTSD, sexual abuse, and how various traumas can affect us. 

Similarly spiritual experience can literally change our personal worlds.

Our stream of consciousness cannot be objective because it is OUR stream and no one else's.  It IS OUR memories and our thoughts, our knowledge of what it is to BE ourselves.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/witnesses-insights-episode-18/

Edited August 21, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

47 minutes ago, webbles said:

The closest thing I can think of is D&C 67:10-12 and D&C 84:19-22

By the way, D&C 84:19-22 has caused a bit of discussion on what it means since it could be read that you have to have the Melchizedek Priesthood before you can see God.  And Joseph Smith definitely didn't have that priesthood when he had the first vision.  Here's an Ensign article that discusses this question - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1985/12/i-have-a-question/i-have-a-question?lang=eng. 

Seeing the power of godliness in a person is a wonderful thing. It is a different subject, but is certainly one worth discussing. I will read the article. Thanks.

[Navidad]

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Also @Navidad

Totally agree, and right on schedule, Interpreter came out yesterday with an article on eyewitnesses, and how "unreliable" they can be, and the complexity of the issue.

Cognitive science and its continuing influence on the LDS paradigm is leading, I think, toward a more post modern way of seeing the importance of the subjective and the absurdity of trying to make religion correspond to science.

As I think you are saying, and I AM saying,  human EXPERIENCE of reality is never " objective" nor can it be.

We all see the world differently, as filtered through our bodies and the previous pool of personal experience we have individually had.

We all know about PTSD, sexual abuse, and how various traumas can affect us. 

Similarly spiritual experience can literally change our personal worlds.

Our stream of consciousness cannot be objective because it is OUR stream and no one else's.  It IS OUR memories and our thoughts, our knowledge of what it is to BE ourselves.

https://interpreterfoundation.org/witnesses-insights-episode-18/

I don't think I am asking about something as abstract as a spiritual experience or a stream on consciousness. Maybe I am asking about something that doesn't exist-but my question is much more concrete and objective than not. I am talking about something ultimately verifiable. This is probably a silly example, but I worked my way through seminary as a licensed apprentice embalmer in a funeral home. I saw hundreds of dead people. They were verifiably dead; pathologists came to the funeral home to conduct autopsies. The truth of their death, car wreck, murder, etc. was verifiable and undeniable.

The change in someone's life who has undergone a powerful experience as you describe is also verifiable by the change in the person, easily verifiable by many with whom they come in contact. Is the idea of a verifiable miraculous spiritual experience, such as literally seeing the Christ, using all the senses and not being alone in so doing something verifiable? I believe the manifestation of the Spirit at Pentecost and probably also at Kirtland was a verifiable spiritual experience for all who were there, were looking in the window, or walking past outside. I don't know about Paul's? Was he the only one who saw the light (Christ?) on the road? Apparently all Israel could see the pillar of fire and cloud of smoke and take comfort in its presence.

Of course Hoffer informs us about mass movements and even about mass psychosis. Now I am not sure what I am asking about or differentiating about? My dear Mennonite bishop pastor of twenty-five years ago once recorded in a Mennonite magazine that in his final years he had prayed for a vision of Christ. He described laying in his bed and waking up seeing a banner float across his bedroom. On the banner it wrote "Theophany!" Our bishop was quite a scholar and humorist. Reading the article, it sounded like he was serious, but I knew him well enough I could seem him making one final joke on all his oh-so-too-serious-Mennonite-scholar friends. I am not sure! I just find it curious that so many identified spiritual events are reported by just one person who was alone or the only one reporting the "vision" at the time. I guess I am asking about something more tangible and verifiable than something that is known via a testimony. Thanks for your post. I value your thoughts.

[Calm]

On 8/21/2022 at 7:10 AM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I am personally not aware of any 'Church teachings about prerequisites'. If anything, the story of the First Vision suggests that theophanies are available to just about anybody.

Saul/Paul, Ammon the Younger, some others were not expecting visions and hadn’t exactly prepared themselves to see God by persecuting his Saints.

Seems like the only prerequisite is God decides there is a good reason for you to get one.  Never heard a teaching in church that only certain people would get them

edit:  I really, really get annoyed with myself when I drop a “not” and end up saying the opposite of what I mean. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Calm

[blackstrap]

When you say verifiable , do you imply " pictures/video or it didn't happen "? Will several witnesses do ? 

Skeptics will still doubt unless it happens to them personally and even then they will look for some ' natural ' explanation to avoid God . 

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, blackstrap said:

When you say verifiable , do you imply " pictures/video or it didn't happen "? Will several witnesses do ? 

Skeptics will still doubt unless it happens to them personally and even then they will look for some ' natural ' explanation to avoid God . 

I assume you are asking me. I am certainly not a skeptic about hierophanies or theophanies. I believe God can do as He wishes when He wishes. I simply never heard about prerequisites or a path to becoming the person who has such experiences, especially when it comes to the Savior.

I have no criteria in my mind for verifiability. I assume there must be some . . . It is not something I have thought about heretofore. I do believe Christ today has a glorified body that is both spirit and flesh. Therefore it seems that there must be some way to verify the physical visible presence of such a person beyond the metaphysical limitations of the human mind. I enjoy thinking about things like this. When our elders quorum teacher, who I have great respect for, mentioned this in class, it immediately caught my attention, especially since he is also our stake patriarch.

[webbles]

48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I have no criteria in my mind for verifiability. I assume there must be some . . . It is not something I have thought about heretofore. I do believe Christ today has a glorified body that is both spirit and flesh. Therefore it seems that there must be some way to verify the physical visible presence of such a person beyond the metaphysical limitations of the human mind. I enjoy thinking about things like this. When our elders quorum teacher, who I have great respect for, mentioned this in class, it immediately caught my attention, especially since he is also our stake patriarch.

In D&C 129, it talks about how to verify if an angel is from God or from the devil.  The basic gist of it is to offer to shake their hand.  If they are pre-mortal, then they will not attempt to.  If they are post-mortal, they will gladly shake your hand.  If they are from the devil, they'll try but fail (since they have no physical body).

I would assume, though, if Christ appeared to you, He'd let you feel his hands and feet to see the crucifixion marks.

 

[Duncan]

21 hours ago, webbles said:

https://www.timesandseasons.org/index.php/2022/04/do-all-prophets-and-apostles-see-god/ has a pretty good rundown on statements from apostles on both side of question.

On the side of seeing Christ, it lists Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, George Q. Cannon, Orson F. Whitney, Melvin J. Ballard, Hugh B. Brown, and David B. Haight with some possible cryptic statements from Boyd K. Packer, Jeffrey R. Holland, and Ezra Taft Benson.

On the side of not seeing Christ, it lists Joseph Fielding Smith and David O. McKay.

 

There are others like Joseph F. Smith, John Henry Smith, George F. Richards, Rulon S. Wells of the Seventy made statements about their seeing Christ. Elder Harold B. Lee told about an experience of Elder Charles A. Callis seeing him but he didn't elaborate. Add Quentin L. Cook and Pres. Faust about cryptic statements

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am talking about something ultimately verifiable.

The existence of God is not ultimately verifiable and now you want verifiable evidence that He not only exists but that real people have "really seen" not even God, but his Son.   Christians usually base their faith on....... well, faith, and eschew sign-seeking.   I don't understand your position.

How about Our Lady of Fatima?  Supposedly thousands saw miracles like the sun spinning- at the same time.  https://www.goodcatholic.com/product/fatima-the-true-story/

You live in an entirely different cognitive universe than I do.  You want to weigh God I guess, and see the embalmed body.  

That God is dead.   Mine is living and too busy to show up for us and get on a scale.

I simply don't think that way.   I have given you the only answer I know

All my best

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Pyreaux]

There have been many who had a dream, and some a vision and rarely in person or maybe in disguise. All true sightings are a matter of extra-human eyes. Transfiguration of the body and eyes. The Law is that "no man" can "see God" and "live". Even though many have declared they have seen God, people try to downplay the sightings for the sake of the law. According to my understanding of the law, they absolutely saw God, they weren't "men" nor did they "live" at the time they saw. All are grades of the same Theosis. Opens the eyes to see the invisible world. Stephen transfigured before the Sanhedrin and could see God the Father and Jesus though no one else does. Paul had an inhuman sight, he saw the Lord, but the normal humans couldn't see it. John says, "we are the sons of God", no man can see God save for he that is "of God", and when John saw the Lord, he fell down "as dead" and sees God on the throne of an apocalyptic vision. Joseph Smith First 'Vision', it was no mere vision, he woke up on his back, a known mark of the physical toll of his body's transfiguration.

So, is it your "natural" eyes. It is your body's eye. Your eyes are not natural if you see God. Theosis is a function of the Holy Ghost as are visions. All "supernatural".

In the Bible, temple building is a mark of seeing God, as temples were built on the physical spot God stood. David bought the land he physically saw the Lord standing, and build the temple of Jerusalem, and Jacob on the spot of his stone pillow where he dreamed seeing God at Bethel, he built the pillar temple, and a royal temple in the future. They seem little different in behavior when thinking about whether one saw God with their natural eyes or not.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

I would assume, though, if Christ appeared to you, He'd let you feel his hands and feet to see the crucifixion marks.

And fall upon His feet to bathe them with one's tears.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, webbles said:

In D&C 129, it talks about how to verify if an angel is from God or from the devil.  The basic gist of it is to offer to shake their hand.  If they are pre-mortal, then they will not attempt to.  If they are post-mortal, they will gladly shake your hand.  If they are from the devil, they'll try but fail (since they have no physical body).

I would assume, though, if Christ appeared to you, He'd let you feel his hands and feet to see the crucifixion marks.

 

I assume you understand it involves a bit more than just handshakes

 

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The existence of God is not ultimately verifiable and now you want verifiable evidence that He not only exists but that real people have "really seen" not even God, but his Son.   Christians usually base their faith on....... well, faith, and eschew sign-seeking.   I don't understand your position.

How about Our Lady of Fatima?  Supposedly thousands saw miracles like the sun spinning- at the same time.  https://www.goodcatholic.com/product/fatima-the-true-story/

You live in an entirely different cognitive universe than I do.  You want to weigh God I guess, and see the embalmed body.  

That God is dead.   Mine is living and too busy to show up for us and get on a scale.

I simply don't think that way.   I have given you the only answer I know

All my best

 

I don't want anything like you are suggesting. I am merely thinking through a rather complex question and issue. I much prefer faith to sign-seeking. You are correct - you don't understand my position. You begin with an apriori assumption about me and then go from there based on assumptions that are familiar to you.

You have given me the only answer you know. Well, I don't have any answers I know. I only have lots of questions and a degree of provisional certitude.

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Navidad

[PacMan]

D&C 130:3 makes it pretty clear:

"3 John 14:23—The ^aappearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal ^bappearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son ^cdwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."

As others have mentioned, Joseph Smith taught about the second comforter and the reality of a divine personal visitation.

In April 2014 GC, President Packer did not mince words:

"Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience:
“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).
Their words are my words.
I believe and I am sure that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He lives. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, and “by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24).
I bear my witness that the Savior lives. I know the Lord. I am His witness. I know of His great sacrifice and eternal love."

Emphasis are all original.

This is from Allen Packer speaking about his father, Boyd K. Packer at his funeral on July 10, 2015:

“Grandpa has a deep testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  He knows it is true.  He has served for more than 50 years as a General Authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  He had many deep spiritual experiences, but you should know that you do not need to be a General Authority to have those same spiritual experiences.  All men and all women can have them.  You can have them.  I know!

In 1992 Grandpa started a poem he called the “Unfinished Composition.”  He added another section each 10 years.  He quoted it as part of his conference talk in April 2012 entitled “These Things I Know.”  The last part concluded with these verses:  “I now can say with all certainty that I know and love the Lord.  I can testify with them of old as I preach His holy word.  I know what He felt in Gethsamene . . . too much to comprehend.  I know He did it all for us; we have no greater Friend.  I know that He will come anew with power and in glory.  I know I will see Him once again at the end of my life’s story.  [I will] kneel before His wounded feet; [I will] feel His Spirit glow.  My whispering, quivering voice will say, My Lord, my God, I know.”

I add to Grandpa’s testimony my witness, called as a special witness, that our Father in Heaven lives, that Jesus is the Christ, the Atonement applies to each of us, and we can feel the truthfulness of that through the power of the Holy Ghost.  In the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

I personally know of one person's experience.  And I know that person shared it with one of the Twelve who in turn reciprocated with his experience.  That said, I have never encountered such a divisive doctrine.  When shared prematurely, for whatever reason, these sacred experiences drive a wedge into the hearts of those unready to hear.  In my experience, they tend to obsess, become angry, or even hostile over the topic.  It is the strangest thing. 

Seeking after the qualities of 2 Peter 1 is time well spent.

Edited August 22, 2022 by PacMan

[BlueDreams]

On 8/21/2022 at 6:48 AM, Navidad said:

Sorry, it was never my intent for this to turn into an apologetic for, defense of, or metaphysical musings about such experiences. I simply wanted to know what the church position was/is on the same. What I think, or what metaphysics demonstrates is not relevant to the original post (at least as I intended it). If you all want to take it in that direction, that is fine. It simply was not my intent.

This is the summary paragraph of my original post -

"I don't remember any other LDS leader indicating that he had seen Christ "in the flesh." I greatly respect this teacher, but am bringing the question here. Next time I am alone with him I will ask him for clarification as well. Are his comments "orthodox" in LDS practice? If so, what indeed are the scriptural prerequisites for such an experience? In testimonies, I have heard members say they have literally seen spirits of the dead and angels, but never Christ. I appreciate your comments on this. Is there an official church teaching on this subject?" 

It was not my intent to fall into the hole of debating the existence of visions, the nature of such, or whether Juan Diego saw Mary, Cristeros saw angels on white horses during the Cristero War, whether Luther really had his choir loft vision or not, what Paul saw on the road to Damascus, or if Lorenzo Snow literally saw Christ. If I participated in causing the digression, I apologize. I am probably most interested in what, if any are the church teachings about prerequisites for a person to have such a vision. The validity, nature, and psychological/theological integration of such visions might be a wonderful topic for another thread.

 

When you first wrote this, I thought it was a little weird to think of pre-req's to seeing God. But for whatever reason, the second time it jogged my memory that I became a little obsessed with the idea of seeing God. Some of the scriptures that jogged this are ones webbles has mentioned. But there are also stories of people seeking God and receiving experiences. I was studying scriptures a lot at the time and one day it dawned on me that God wanted us to seek these experiences. I couldn't tell you which scripture finally nudged this into gear. But it did...I decided it wasn't supposed to be a rare event and it could be a righteous desire. Note this was differentiated from sign seeking. Those that were sign seeking were usually wanting proof that there was a God, often while they were rebelling against the concept of God/what's asked from Them. Those who sought God and had experiences of seeing God were humbly and actively seeking the Lord in the first place and genuinely wanted to know more from God. 

I said I was obsessed. This has dissipated over the years for 2 reasons.

1.) Over time I realized there was another connection to strong spiritual experiences as preparations for big asks from God as well. This was also a pattern I saw in scriptures. Lehi has a vision and then must leave his home to wander the desert with a seriously dysfunctional family for 8+ years. Moses receives visions and then has to go and free a people. Etc. But it was also a pattern I was experiencing in my own life. I would have a powerful spiritual experience (like ones where I could sense the presence of angels or that I received a potent sense of peace and strength not of my own making) and something would soon after get especially difficult. I have one memory in my head where I remember sitting in my car, experiencing this beautiful moment...and going "this is wonderful, what's about to happen?" For much of my 20's my life was littered with beautifully powerful answers from God. Answers that people often wish for, including a handful of vision and dreams. And I was also being asked to do things that were situationally crazy to me and would often end with me emotionally in pain ranging from isolation, anger, shock, shame, and sorrow.

2.) I had something close enough that was what I needed (for now). I received a small series of stronger than usual answers to prayer/meditation that confirmed I'd done what I needed to and became the person that could better know God (especially Christ) in a way that I couldn't before this crazy journey. It also culminated in a promise that I would receive a beautiful gift that sealed what I'd been through through most of my 20's. And it's been just that. I still have challenges and I can still find God in them. But it's reduced in its potency that was my 20's.

All that said, I do think there is a way for just about anyone to see God in this life....But I wouldn't exactly describe it as simple pre-reqs.  

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 22, 2022 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, Navidad said:

I assume you are asking me. I am certainly not a skeptic about hierophanies or theophanies. I believe God can do as He wishes when He wishes. I simply never heard about prerequisites or a path to becoming the person who has such experiences, especially when it comes to the Savior.

I have no criteria in my mind for verifiability. I assume there must be some . . . It is not something I have thought about heretofore. I do believe Christ today has a glorified body that is both spirit and flesh. Therefore it seems that there must be some way to verify the physical visible presence of such a person beyond the metaphysical limitations of the human mind. I enjoy thinking about things like this. When our elders quorum teacher, who I have great respect for, mentioned this in class, it immediately caught my attention, especially since he is also our stake patriarch.

Do you believe the corporeal Jesus exists in a physical location? If so, where? If not, why not?

I met an ex/anti-Mormon lady named Edie at a Manti Pageant protest who said Jesus appeared to her near Taos, New Mexico, and told her the LDS Church is false. Other than taking her word, the evidence this happened would be her protesting at the temple, no?

Edited August 22, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

When you first wrote this, I thought it was a little weird to think of pre-req's to seeing God. But for whatever reason, the second time it jogged my memory that I became a little obsessed with the idea of seeing God. Some of the scriptures that jogged this are ones webbles has mentioned. But there are also stories of people seeking God and receiving experiences. I was studying scriptures a lot at the time and one day it dawned on me that God wanted us to seek these experiences. I couldn't tell you which scripture finally nudged this into gear. But it did...I decided it wasn't supposed to be a rare event and it could be a righteous desire. Note this was differentiated from sign seeking. Those that were sign seeking were usually wanting proof that there was a God, often while they were rebelling against the concept of God/what's asked from Them. Those who sought God and had experiences of seeing God were humbly and actively seeking the Lord in the first place and genuinely wanted to know more from God. 

I said I was obsessed. This has dissipated over the years for 2 reasons.

1.) Over time I realized there was another connection to strong spiritual experiences as preparations for big asks from God as well. This was also a pattern I saw in scriptures. Lehi has a vision and then must leave his home to wander the desert with a seriously dysfunctional family for 8+ years. Moses receives visions and then has to go and free a people. Etc. But it was also a pattern I was experiencing in my own life. I would have a powerful spiritual experience (like ones where I could sense the presence of angels or that I received a potent sense of peace and strength not of my own making) and something would soon after get especially difficult. I have one memory in my head where I remember sitting in my car, experiencing this beautiful moment...and going "this is wonderful, what's about to happen?" For much of my 20's my life was littered with beautifully powerful answers from God. Answers that people often wish for, including a handful of vision and dreams. And I was also being asked to do things that were situationally crazy to me and would often end with me emotionally in pain ranging from isolation, anger, shock, shame, and sorrow.

2.) I had something close enough that was what I needed (for now). I received a small series of stronger than usual answers to prayer/meditation that confirmed I'd done what I needed to/became the person that could better know God (especially Christ) in a way that I couldn't before this crazy journey. It also culminated in a promise that I would receive a beautiful gift that sealed what I'd been through through most of my 20's. And it's been just that. I still have challenges and I can still find God in them. But it's reduced in its potency that was my 20's.

All that said, I do think there is a way for just about anyone to see God in this life....But I wouldn't exactly describe it as simple pre-reqs.  

 

With luv,

BD

Powerful!

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Navidad said:

I don't want anything like you are suggesting. I am merely thinking through a rather complex question and issue. I much prefer faith to sign-seeking. You are correct - you don't understand my position. You begin with an apriori assumption about me and then go from there based on assumptions that are familiar to you.

You have given me the only answer you know. Well, I don't have any answers I know. I only have lots of questions and a degree of provisional certitude.

That is where we are so very different. At least ten times over the years you have wished me all your best . . . then most every time I post something you come back at me with all your sarcastic and mocking worst. Perhaps some day when I am in SOCAL, we can have breakfast and you can share in person with me why I irritate you so. I would sincerely like to understand that.

I ask you questions you never answer, you say I give you only the answers I know.

I cannot give you answers I do not know.

Where it stops no one knows. Right here is fine. I actually want to help but it never works 

 

[mfbukowski]

18 hours ago, Navidad said:

I do believe Christ today has a glorified body that is both spirit and flesh. Therefore it seems that there must be some way to verify the physical visible presence of such a person beyond the metaphysical limitations of the human mind.

Just as an example, I have no idea how you get this conclusion. 

And what does "beyond the metaphysical limitations of the human mind" mean?

The human mind has come up with a LOT of metaphysical theories, I am not sure why any would be limited.

These are the questions I would ask anyone who wrote this.  But in asking you, I know I will not get clarification.

THIS is why I get so frustrated !

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, PacMan said:

D&C 130:3 makes it pretty clear:

"3 John 14:23—The ^aappearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal ^bappearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son ^cdwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false."

As others have mentioned, Joseph Smith taught about the second comforter and the reality of a divine personal visitation.

In April 2014 GC, President Packer did not mince words:

"Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon recorded the following after a sacred experience:
“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).
Their words are my words.
I believe and I am sure that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that He lives. He is the Only Begotten of the Father, and “by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24).
I bear my witness that the Savior lives. I know the Lord. I am His witness. I know of His great sacrifice and eternal love."

Emphasis are all original.

This is from Allen Packer speaking about his father, Boyd K. Packer at his funeral on July 10, 2015:

“Grandpa has a deep testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ.  He knows it is true.  He has served for more than 50 years as a General Authority of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  He had many deep spiritual experiences, but you should know that you do not need to be a General Authority to have those same spiritual experiences.  All men and all women can have them.  You can have them.  I know!

In 1992 Grandpa started a poem he called the “Unfinished Composition.”  He added another section each 10 years.  He quoted it as part of his conference talk in April 2012 entitled “These Things I Know.”  The last part concluded with these verses:  “I now can say with all certainty that I know and love the Lord.  I can testify with them of old as I preach His holy word.  I know what He felt in Gethsamene . . . too much to comprehend.  I know He did it all for us; we have no greater Friend.  I know that He will come anew with power and in glory.  I know I will see Him once again at the end of my life’s story.  [I will] kneel before His wounded feet; [I will] feel His Spirit glow.  My whispering, quivering voice will say, My Lord, my God, I know.”

I add to Grandpa’s testimony my witness, called as a special witness, that our Father in Heaven lives, that Jesus is the Christ, the Atonement applies to each of us, and we can feel the truthfulness of that through the power of the Holy Ghost.  In the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

I personally know of one person's experience.  And I know that person shared it with one of the Twelve who in turn reciprocated with his experience.  That said, I have never encountered such a divisive doctrine.  When shared prematurely, for whatever reason, these sacred experiences drive a wedge into the hearts of those unready to hear.  In my experience, they tend to obsess, become angry, or even hostile over the topic.  It is the strangest thing. 

Seeking after the qualities of 2 Peter 1 is time well spent.

Thanks for your helpful reply. I am especially moved by your reference to the qualities in 2 Peter 1. They include faith, goodness, knowledge, self-control, endurance, godliness, brotherly affection, and love. Peter implies that these are incremental and each built on the other produces the useful and fruitful Christian.

Equally as important Peter implies that those without these qualities, although a Christian may be blind and short-sighted. For years I loved to study hapaxlogomenes - Greek words that are only used one time in the entire Greek New Testament. I always thought they must be very special and important in the context if they are only used once to refer to something unique. The word for short-sighted (myopazon) is such a word. Aristotle uses it a number of times in his writings, but in the NT it only appears in 2 Peter 1: 9, referring to the believer whose faith has been stunted by not adding to it all these additional important traits.

Those who designed the Johari Window use a similar term "blind spots" to refer to persons who are short-sighted in seeing things in and about themselves that are clear to others. I think this is such an important concept. When we don't see how we come across, we reject what others have to offer us in counsel and perhaps wisdom. May we each strive for these seven other traits as we live our Christian lives. May we be clear-eyed in how we come across to others, whether meaning to, or not. Thanks for the reminder.

Peter makes it clear in this passage that faith, however certain and self-assured is not enough. He even suggests that the short-sighted Christian, however certain in their faith, who lacks all these other traits is useless-unfruitful, in addition to being blind and short-sighted. Thank you PacMan for reminding me of this truth this morning.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Do you believe the corporeal Jesus exists in a physical location? If so, where? If not, why not?

I met an ex/anti-Mormon lady named Edie at a Manti Pageant protest who said Jesus appeared to her near Taos, New Mexico, and told her the LDS Church is false. Other than taking her word, the evidence this happened would be her protesting at the temple, no?

Hi Bernard - I will answer to the best of my ability since you are asking me (I think) a specific series of questions. Therefore I assume you want to know what I believe, so I am safe in replying.

I believe Christ was a spirit, fully divine prior to the incarnation. As a spirit He existed before the foundation of the world and was loved by His Father. In the incarnation he became fully human, "the man Christ Jesus" permanently possessing spirit, body, and soul as do all humans. I believe that in his earthly existence He was fully the physical visible presence of God on earth, something that had not existed in a physical and visible form since Ezekiel 9 and 10. What happened there was indeed the great apostasy, the removal of the physical visible presence of God (some say the shekinah glory, others say it was the Holy Spirit) from the temple. Since that day the Holy Spirit has not dwelt in temples of stone made by man. I digress.

I believe the physical visible presence of God on earth was here in the person of Christ until He ascended into heaven. His promise of a comforter in the person of the Holy Spirit then was granted us and dwells within us. Since Pentecost we as Christians have become the literal physical and visible presence of God on earth. That is a huge responsibility, at which we pragmatically and practically often fail.

I believe the glorified and ascended Christ now dwells in the place that God the Father is (metaphorically on His right hand), which we often call heaven. As Christ came to earth in the incarnation, some day He will return in what is sometimes called "The Second Coming" or the rapture. He is busy now interceding for us with His Father, preparing a place for us, and He is building up his church as it exists in its current imperfect and incomplete human form (the church made up of individual believers across the globe). It is (in my opinion) "the church collectively."

So yes Christ exists in a physical location (metaphorically at the right hand of the Father). Yes, He is corporeal - fully God and human (mind, body, and spirit). As noted in the previous paragraph He is quite busy. He is represented on earth as the Holy Spirit - the person of the Godhead who is now, by indwelling us enables us to be the physical visible presence of God to the world. I am personally unaware of His travel between earth and the right hand of the Father in this dispensation, but as fully God I accept that He can do as He pleases for a specific purpose. The real presence of Christ in the Catholic Eucharist is a wonderful topic for discussion, but I will leave it to our forum's conservative Catholic friends to discuss that if they like.

I am not sure you are looking for my thoughts on Edie. I have none. I have my own bias that the LDS church is true as opposed to false, so I would not be able to comprehend why Christ told her it was false. Sounds like projection to me. I hope I have adequately (if not correctly in your viewpoint) answered your questions.