Seeing Christ with Physical Eyes

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Your certainty comes from what you perceive as the Spirit teaching you. Fine. I honor and receive that. However, I also have the teaching of the Spirit in my life. Will you honor and perceive that, or simply continue with your certainty and therefore conclude that you are not just more correct, but that I am incorrect? The fact that I honor and receive your beliefs requires me to have provisional certainty. My faith is not less, nor is it marginalized by that. I am more than content to learn all I can in this life, and wait for my judgment by Christ for certainty and surety. Prior to that day certainty is an impossible dream.

I can't help myself.

It is not an impossible dream.

Fight this and 2500 years of philosophy that went before.: 

Quote

 

" To say that the world is out there, that it is not our creation, is to say, with common sense, that most things in space and time are the effects of causes which do not include human mental states.  To say that truth is not out there is simply to say that where there are no sentences, there is no truth, that sentences are elements of human languages, and that human languages are human creations.

     Truth cannot be out there- cannot exist independently of the human mind- because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there.  The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not.  Only descriptions of the world can be true or false.  The world on its own- unaided by the describing activities of human beings- cannot."   Richard Rorty- Contingency Irony and Solidarity, P 5.

 

And how does one know that religious sentences are true?   Because they grow sweet to you as you study their meaning, and your knowledge becomes perfect.

Alma 32:

Quote

 

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your aknowledge bperfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your cfaith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your dmind doth begin to expand.

 

That's it.

I must finish this.

Edited August 23, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

On 8/21/2022 at 10:53 PM, Duncan said:

There are others like Joseph F. Smith, John Henry Smith, George F. Richards, Rulon S. Wells of the Seventy made statements about their seeing Christ. Elder Harold B. Lee told about an experience of Elder Charles A. Callis seeing him but he didn't elaborate. Add Quentin L. Cook and Pres. Faust about cryptic statements

Elder Boyd K. Packer's conference talk a year or so after his call to the apostleship dances adroitly around the question, but I got the distinct feeling that he had that testimony.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1971/04/the-spirit-beareth-record?lang=eng

[Stargazer]

On 8/21/2022 at 11:32 PM, mfbukowski said:

The existence of God is not ultimately verifiable and now you want verifiable evidence that He not only exists but that real people have "really seen" not even God, but his Son.   Christians usually base their faith on....... well, faith, and eschew sign-seeking.   I don't understand your position.

How about Our Lady of Fatima?  Supposedly thousands saw miracles like the sun spinning- at the same time.  https://www.goodcatholic.com/product/fatima-the-true-story/

You live in an entirely different cognitive universe than I do.  You want to weigh God I guess, and see the embalmed body.  

That God is dead.   Mine is living and too busy to show up for us and get on a scale.

I simply don't think that way.   I have given you the only answer I know

All my best

 

He had what I thought was a totally reasonable question to start the thread with. He wanted to know something. I don't think he's trying to argue with you. And I think you're getting rather too argumentative, especially in the bolded part.

[Stargazer]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:55 PM, PacMan said:

In April 2014 GC, President Packer did not mince words:

That would be here:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2014/04/the-witness?lang=eng

[Stargazer]

On 8/22/2022 at 3:35 PM, BlueDreams said:

When you first wrote this, I thought it was a little weird to think of pre-req's to seeing God. But for whatever reason, the second time it jogged my memory that I became a little obsessed with the idea of seeing God. Some of the scriptures that jogged this are ones webbles has mentioned. But there are also stories of people seeking God and receiving experiences. I was studying scriptures a lot at the time and one day it dawned on me that God wanted us to seek these experiences. I couldn't tell you which scripture finally nudged this into gear. But it did...I decided it wasn't supposed to be a rare event and it could be a righteous desire. Note this was differentiated from sign seeking. Those that were sign seeking were usually wanting proof that there was a God, often while they were rebelling against the concept of God/what's asked from Them. Those who sought God and had experiences of seeing God were humbly and actively seeking the Lord in the first place and genuinely wanted to know more from God. 

I said I was obsessed. This has dissipated over the years for 2 reasons.

1.) Over time I realized there was another connection to strong spiritual experiences as preparations for big asks from God as well. This was also a pattern I saw in scriptures. Lehi has a vision and then must leave his home to wander the desert with a seriously dysfunctional family for 8+ years. Moses receives visions and then has to go and free a people. Etc. But it was also a pattern I was experiencing in my own life. I would have a powerful spiritual experience (like ones where I could sense the presence of angels or that I received a potent sense of peace and strength not of my own making) and something would soon after get especially difficult. I have one memory in my head where I remember sitting in my car, experiencing this beautiful moment...and going "this is wonderful, what's about to happen?" For much of my 20's my life was littered with beautifully powerful answers from God. Answers that people often wish for, including a handful of vision and dreams. And I was also being asked to do things that were situationally crazy to me and would often end with me emotionally in pain ranging from isolation, anger, shock, shame, and sorrow.

2.) I had something close enough that was what I needed (for now). I received a small series of stronger than usual answers to prayer/meditation that confirmed I'd done what I needed to and became the person that could better know God (especially Christ) in a way that I couldn't before this crazy journey. It also culminated in a promise that I would receive a beautiful gift that sealed what I'd been through through most of my 20's. And it's been just that. I still have challenges and I can still find God in them. But it's reduced in its potency that was my 20's.

All that said, I do think there is a way for just about anyone to see God in this life....But I wouldn't exactly describe it as simple pre-reqs.  

 

With luv,

BD

I love what you just wrote above!

When I was new in the Church, age 15, just a few months after baptism, I was attending MIA (Mutual Improvement Association -- the youth program at the time), and during a lull before returning home, I had the idea that I could pray and ask Heavenly Father for a vision. After all, I thought, Joseph Smith had been about my age when it happened to him, and there didn't seem to be any reason why I couldn't have a vision. So, I went to the stage of the cultural hall, where it was dark at the time and nobody being around, I knelt down and proceeded to pray. When I got to the point of asking what I came for, I simply asked for a vision -- I had no idea what I was looking to see. I had a testimony already, and it didn't occur to me to ask myself what on earth I needed a vision for, but it seemed a natural part of progression.

I didn't get a vision. I got something that was far more meaningful at the time, and it taught me an important principle. 

I always hesitate before telling this story, but feel that it's appropriate. I heard a voice, not in my ears, but it was words said short and to the point: "You don't have enough faith yet."

That was it. No thunder or lightning, nothing frightening or complex at all. Simply a truthful declaration as to why I wasn't going to get what I asked for. Because I wasn't ready for it. And I didn't really have enough faith for something as exceptional as a vision, but I think I did expect something. What I got was: intelligence and truth. I got up from my knees with the thought: "Oh! Alright then."

I'm 70 now (I love saying that! My father and grandfather died in their 40s), and though I have heard that selfsame voice a couple more times, I still haven't gotten my vision. And what I have discovered is this: I don't need one. I cannot be convinced any more by a vision than I have already been by the Holy Ghost whispering to me and at times telling me something forthrightly and to the point. 

 

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Yes it is interesting. That is why I was surprised when you said that the Shekinah Glory is not a term used among the Saints. In your reply to me you are quoting from something. From what are you quoting? Just curious. The experience at Kirtland sounds a lot like the account of Pentecost. 

That isn't exactly true. We don't use it much, although I saw an LDS-oriented book at Deseret Book Store once that had "Shekinah" in its title, but we do know what it is:

Shechinah (from the LDS Bible Dictionary)

The Presence. A word used by the later Jews (and borrowed from them by the Christians) to denote the cloud of brightness and glory that marked the presence of the Lord, as spoken of in Ex. 3:1–6; 24:16; 1 Kgs. 8:10; Isa. 6:1–3; Matt. 17:5; Acts 7:55. The Prophet Joseph Smith described this phenomenon in connection with his First Vision, as a “light … above the brightness of the sun,” and said that he saw two Personages whose “brightness and glory defy all description,” standing “in the light” (JS—H 1:16–18).

And yes, the experience at the Kirtland Temple was a lot like what happened at Pentecost.

 

 

[Pyreaux]

44 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I didn't get a vision. I got something that was far more meaningful at the time, and it taught me an important principle. 

I always hesitate before telling this story, but feel that it's appropriate. I heard a voice, not in my ears, but it was words said short and to the point: "You don't have enough faith yet."

That was it. No thunder or lightning, nothing frightening or complex at all. Simply a truthful declaration as to why I wasn't going to get what I asked for. Because I wasn't ready for it. And I didn't really have enough faith for something as exceptional as a vision, but I think I did expect something. What I got was: intelligence and truth. I got up from my knees with the thought: "Oh! Alright then."

I'm 70 now (I love saying that! My father and grandfather died in their 40s), and though I have heard that selfsame voice a couple more times, I still haven't gotten my vision. And what I have discovered is this: I don't need one. I cannot be convinced any more by a vision than I have already been by the Holy Ghost whispering to me and at times telling me something forthrightly and to the point. 

 

My only encounter came during a time of Great desperation and while deep in prayer an invisible finger touched my head a strong thought messaged to me that simply let me know everything would be okay. I now kick myself for not asking him any more questions while I felt I had his attention. So, now all I know is there is a God who answers prayer, which I believe is proportional to your desperation to know something and the duration of the prayer. I have to be content with my academic testimony of the church... that I've never doubted to need that same divine confirmation. I appear to have the gift of knowledge but not wisdom. I'm satisfied with knowing, but I envy the simple minded that have grand dreams and miracles, but I know don't need them. I'm happy when I God always helped me find my hopelessly lost keys after I pray but within 5 minutes before I'll be late, ect.  Such 'tender mercies' (mini-miracles) are rarely impressive, but I stay grateful for each one.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Pyreaux

[Stargazer]

38 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

I'm happy when God always helped me find my hopelessly lost keys after I pray but within 5 minutes before I'll be late, ect.  Such 'tender mercies' (mini-miracles) are rarely impressive, but I stay grateful for each one.

Some people on this board have disparaged the miracle of finding lost keys as too eyerollingly silly, but I've had my own very "tender mercy" along that line once, and I know how important that can be.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

He had what I thought was a totally reasonable question to start the thread with. He wanted to know something. I don't think he's trying to argue with you. And I think you're getting rather too argumentative, especially in the bolded part.

You are right, but I feel that I have trouble with him understanding me, so I tend to get over dramatic I guess.  Just the idea of seeing God with your natural eyes is for me a confusion so obvious that I was trying to cut to the chase.

As I tried to show, in thinking in terms of REM sleep, we even see our dreams with our "natural eyes" and our natural brain structures etc.   The implication that there was "more" to alleged "reality" than our brain functions was driving me nuts.

We cannot perceive ANYTHING except through our natural brains and perceptions- WE CANNOT GET OUTSIDE OUR BRAINS to anything "REAL"- we can ONLY know what our "natural brains/ eyes/ ears/ etc etc present to us- so OF COURSE we see God- or at least who honestly believe that they have had these "brain experiences" - MUST come through natural perceptive organs we all possess 

Of course we see everything with our visual equipment.   We don't hear color, that comes thrugh I suppose you could say "our natural ears"  IFF we actually experience a voice.

AND we have a history.

So yes I was being argumentative out of frustration- which is not an excuse but an explanation.   It was to me, such a confused notion that I let myself become overly "exercised" as folks used to say.

Yes you are right, and I apologize.

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Some people on this board have disparaged the miracle of finding lost keys as too eyerollingly silly, but I've had my own very "tender mercy" along that line once, and I know how important that can be.

I am such a ditz it happens virtually daily.

Why would God NOT want to help us when we are under stress?

I see the idea that He would NOT help us as insulting to God himself.   These can be rather traumatic events when we have to leave NOW and suddenly the keys walk away to somewhere else than they should be! 

 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

I am such a ditz it happens virtually daily.

Why would God NOT want to help us when we are under stress?

I see the idea that He would NOT help us as insulting to God himself.   These can be rather traumatic events when we have to leave NOW and suddenly the keys walk away to somewhere else than they should be! 

 

It is not why would God not want to help us find our keys for most taking issue with tender mercies, but rather if God wants to help us find our keys and does help us, what the heck is going on with the suffering and deaths caused by massacres, pandemics, wars, murderous tidal waves and earthquakes, cancers, car accidents, addictions, etc.?

[Fair Dinkum]

On 8/20/2022 at 7:55 AM, Navidad said:

Several weeks ago a teacher made an almost casual comment in our class that really caught my attention. Paraphrasing, he said that the scriptures are full of examples of the faithful literally seeing the glorified Christ through human eyes. He also said that the scriptures contain the required prerequisites for this to happen to us. I know that Lorenzo Snow told his granddaughter that he had seen Christ with his physical eyes. I know about the transfiguration and perhaps the ascension. Paul saw a light - not sure that was more than the shekinah glory.

I don't remember any other LDS leader indicating that he had seen Christ "in the flesh." I greatly respect this teacher, but am bringing the question here. Next time I am alone with him I will ask him for clarification as well. Are his comments "orthodox" in LDS practice? If so, what indeed are the scriptural prerequisites for such an experience? In testimonies, I have heard members say they have literally seen spirits of the dead and angels, but never Christ. I appreciate your comments on this. Is there an official church teaching on this subject? Thanks.

Que Denver Snuffer

[Stargazer]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is not why would God not want to help us find our keys for most taking issue with tender mercies, but rather if God wants to help us find our keys and does help us, what the heck is going on with the suffering and deaths caused by massacres, pandemics, wars, murderous tidal waves and earthquakes, cancers, car accidents, addictions, etc.?

What, will those who say this say we can't have small miracles because we're not getting enough big miracles? 🙂

I could have said "Hey God, keep the darned keys wherever they managed to get to, just save my wife from her cancer!" But it was her time to go. She recognised it and so did I. The small miracle taught us something that was more important than her stretching out her time on earth: trust in the Lord. Because He's the one in charge here. And there's more to life than this mortal coil.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Pyreaux said:

I have to be content with my academic testimony of the church... that I've never doubted to need that same divine confirmation.

My wife told me that her late husband had exactly one spiritual experience, possibly similar to yours, and that sustained him for the rest of his life. Perhaps those who hunger and thirst after more should chill out a bit and let come what may. Perhaps what you had is more valuable to you, due to its rarity, than a hundred revelations are to a prophet. 

[mfbukowski]

58 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is not why would God not want to help us find our keys for most taking issue with tender mercies, but rather if God wants to help us find our keys and does help us, what the heck is going on with the suffering and deaths caused by massacres, pandemics, wars, murderous tidal waves and earthquakes, cancers, car accidents, addictions, etc.?

Surprising question from you.

I am supposed to figure out why God does what He does? Maybe the others thought it was stupid to bother Him? 

I'll leave judgments to the Boss, that's over my pay grade.

[Stargazer]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Surprising question from you.

I am supposed to figure out why God does what He does? Maybe the others thought it was stupid to bother Him? 

I'll leave judgments to the Boss, that's over my pay grade.

I think she was attributing that complaint to those who tend to resent those small miracles. Not complaining for herself. That's how I read it anyway. 

[MiserereNobis]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Surprising question from you.

I am supposed to figure out why God does what He does? Maybe the others thought it was stupid to bother Him? 

I'll leave judgments to the Boss, that's over my pay grade.

I think it’s wholly appropriate to acknowledge the struggle people have with the problem of evil and how stories about a prayer helping to find keys but not helping with losing a loved one can exacerbate that struggle. 

[mfbukowski]

Never mind.

Edited August 24, 2022 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

26 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I think she was attributing that complaint to those who tend to resent those small miracles. Not complaining for herself. That's how I read it anyway. 

Yes, agree.

Oops I did it again. 

 

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Surprising question from you.

I am supposed to figure out why God does what He does? Maybe the others thought it was stupid to bother Him? 

I'll leave judgments to the Boss, that's over my pay grade.

I am not the one asking the question (I should have been clearer), I am sharing the response I have heard when many of those who have lost others react negatively to hearing of little miracles.  I share what I hear in part to remind people to be sensitive to those who have suffered great loss even when they have prayed about it as well as to get ideas from others on how to respond myself.

How would you respond to someone who after listening to someone practically gushing in testimony meeting about finding their keys so they could take their kids to ballet lessons on time says “God wanted to be sure their daughters got to ballet, but God couldn’t be bothered to be sure my daughter got to her seventh birthday?

Edited August 24, 2022 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I think it’s wholly appropriate to acknowledge the struggle people have with the problem of evil and how stories about a prayer helping to find keys but not helping with losing a loved one can exacerbate that struggle. 

Logically I wonder how we could possibly know He is NOT helping.

He has to erase all evil and make it all pink roses?

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Logically I wonder how we could possibly know He is NOT helping.

He has to erase all evil and make it all pink roses?

If that is your answer to someone in mourning over losing a child to a horrible disease or accident, I fear most would end up hating your version of God.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am not the one asking the question (I should have been clearer), I am sharing the response I have heard when many of those who have lost others react negatively to hearing of little miracles.  I share what I hear in part to remind people to be sensitive to those who have suffered great loss even when they have prayed about it as well as to get ideas from others on how to respond myself.

How would you respond to someone who after listening to someone practically gushing in testimony meeting about finding their keys so they could take their kids to ballet lessons on time says “God wanted to be sure their daughters got to ballet, but God couldn’t be bothered to be sure my daughter got to her seventh birthday?

Yes, well it is the problem of evil, and that has been around for a while.

Yes God allows it.

The church probably has taught at least a hundred sermons and lessons about bad things happening to good people.

Opposition is part of life and we must learn how to deal with it.

Bad things can happen due to others mistakes.  Drunks kill whole families on highways. We all face it and being blessed with finding keys does not guarantee we will not die in excruciating pain from cancer.

It's life, and parts of it are blessed and simply wonderful. Other parts are not.

We must be grateful for the good, and overcome the evil.

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If that is your answer to someone in mourning over losing a child to a horrible disease or accident, I fear most would end up hating your version of God.

I am not going to ever apologize for my experiences. I praise God that I have been so blessed

I am not guaranteed a painless death, trust me, but apparently some would find that just.

Those emotions are  incomprehensible for me.

I'm out.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

You completely missed my point.  It is not about you, Mark.  It is about the person whose child is lost.  That might be you in another moment or something similar and if you can bear it by knowing that God has spoken hope to your heart, then you have been blessed.  But not all can say that and those are the ones I am talking about.