Seeing Christ with Physical Eyes

[Navidad]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And of course uncertainty is built into relativism itself.

I am certain that relativism is only relatively "true"

Life is change, Heraclius saw existence as an ever changing river

I am certain he was right

That is life itself, in constant evolution, seeing truth as the ineffable.  We create our own worlds; what is correct is that nothing is correct

 

Well, you certainly sound to me sometimes that you think that you are correct and I am incorrect!

 

[Navidad]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And of course uncertainty is built into relativism itself.

I am certain that relativism is only relatively "true"

Life is change, Heraclius saw existence as an ever changing river

I am certain he was right

That is life itself, in constant evolution, seeing truth as the ineffable.  We create our own worlds; what is correct is that nothing is correct

 

Heraclius also said, "“The unlike is joined together, and from differences results the most beautiful harmony.” So you and I are joined together making more beautiful harmony that either of us singing a solo! Would you not agree?

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Well, you certainly sound to me sometimes that you think that you are correct and I am incorrect!

 

It was a great day for Covid. Couldn't do anything worthwhile anyway 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Heraclius also said, "“The unlike is joined together, and from differences results the most beautiful harmony.” So you and I are joined together making more beautiful harmony that either of us singing a solo! Would you not agree?

Opposition in all things: yet another LDS paradigm you would find useful. Joseph called it Proving contraries

Otherwise known as Pragmatism 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/worldwide-devotionals/2015/01/tasting-the-light?lang=eng

Edited August 23, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I don't see certainty in any way as a virtue.

Are you certain it's not?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are you certain it's not?

Now THAT'S a good one! 🤣👍

Edited August 23, 2022 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Again misunderstanding.

We all have our individual paradigms, all God given

My entire way of seeing the world is based on relativism, and all I have ever disagreed with you about is how I see your PARADIGM as not answering MY questions, and contrasting how my PARADIGM answers answers them for me.

After 50 years of trying my paradigm daily I have NO more questions, and my daily prayers confirm to me that I am absolutely on the path the Lord wants for me

But I still try my paradigm daily, often here, and I am still seeking any doubts I can generate.

I have had none for 20 years or more. And more details fall into place daily- things I have never before thought about that suddenly relate perfectly to filling in details.

Yesterday I was reading something about a new aspect of the atonement I was considering and I read an article that showed that the same esoteric argument I was considering was central to a chapter in the Book of Mormon that I had glossed over a million times!!  There it was in front of my nose, unseen, for at least 40 years!!

I wish you and everyone else the certainty I have, no matter what path God guides you toward.  If I never had a Buddhist period, I would not know meditation as I do now! 

All paths lead to God if you are in the spirit 

If for some reason you find that offensive, I am sorry. 

I cannot help my certainty nor do I want to.  God knows that I know that He knows....

The goal of philosophy is to heal error, and like a good doctor, I believe I have healed myself out of the disease of doubt and found incredible peace and joy in my God.

I wish the same for all

 

 

Mark’s got his creed 😉

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Mark’s got his creed 😉

That's a little hard when your Creed is that everyone has their own experience  .

[Navidad]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Opposition in all things: yet another LDS paradigm you would find useful. Joseph called it Proving contraries

Otherwise known as Pragmatism 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/worldwide-devotionals/2015/01/tasting-the-light?lang=eng

The idea of harmony is joining voices together, neither one stronger, nor dominating the other. Harmony is not the product of two or more, each doing their best to sing a solo at the same time, believing their voice (creed) is of greater worth, depth, and beauty than that of the other. Harmony cannot co-exist where one believes they have greater light (vocal quality) while believing the other has dimmer light (lesser vocal quality). The purpose of harmony is to sing together to make more beautiful music than can either apart. The elder who gave this devotion was singing a solo.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are you certain it's not?

I am provisionally certain it is not. Are you familiar with the concept of provisional certitude? It is the cornerstone of my Christian faith linked with my desire to never stop receiving and learning from wherever light is found. Without a guiding principle of provisional certitude in my life I most likely would never have attended an LDS ward, a Catholic, Baptist, non-denominational, or an Antiochan Orthodox church. I learned much from teaching students who belonged to Jews for Jesus. Each has provided me light for my journey in Christ. I find as much light in one as in either other. Light is where you look for it. All light is illuminating. Harmony can be found wherever two or more are willing to sing together, with neither one believing his or her voice is better, brighter, louder, or of greater value than the other's.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's a little hard when your Creed is that everyone has their own experience  .

But in your creed, some experiences are correcter 😇 than those of others, right?

[pogi]

18 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi my friend: The shekinah glory is a term used by Christians that comes from Jewish tradition that refers to The Glory of God. The word "shakan" (a rough Anglicization)  means to dwell or live permanently, kind of like when we moved to Mexico we became permanent residents, not tourists or visitors. The term was used by Jewish rabbis to refer to the physical and visible presence of God among the Hebrew people. It was used to refer to the pillar of fire and cloud of smoke, the burning bush, and the powerful flame that later dwelled or lived in the Holy of Holies on the ark of the covenant. It represented the presence of God with His people and was provided to provide assurance and direction. In Ezekiel's vision as described in Ezekiel 9 and 10, it was a momentous decision by God to withdraw his shekinah glory or presence from the temple. Ezekiel describes it literally as leaving, flying over the city, and ascending into heaven. Never again in the second temple period was the Shekinah glory present in the temple or anywhere on earth. The next manifestation of it was that night in the shepherd's field when the Glory of the Lord shone roundabout the shepherds and they were terrified.

The term was adapted by Christians to have the same meaning. It has been used of Christ's time on earth, the transfiguration, and the ascension. Some but not all Christians now use the term to refer to the Holy Spirit's coming in Pentecost and subsequent indwelling the Christian, in whom is now the shekinah glory - or at least should be. We should be the physical visible presence and light of God to the lost and dying world. It is indeed a metaphor at this point. Today it speaks of the ministry of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer. I know the Saints teach something else, but this is used by many Christians to refer to the point where the Holy Spirit becomes a permanent resident in the believer. Others believe it is temporarily permanent dependent on the faithfulness of the believer. This is a broad divide in Christendom.
 

That is a quick review. I hope it is helpful. The shekinah glory of God is a very important concept in my tradition. It is used extensively to refer to the apostasy between 600 or so BCE and the coming of Christ, when God withdrew his glory from the earth. That is why the account of the glory of God in Luke 2 is such a big deal. The actual Hebrew term is not used in either the NT or OT, but has a rich history in some Talmudic teaching and is widely applied to the glory of God. Take care.

Thanks for sharing.  I find it interesting that you suggest it is used to mark the end of apostacy and the beginning of a new dispensation.  It kind of reminds me of something:

Quote

I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me .  When the light rested upon me [denoting an indwelling (?)] I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air.

Quote

Later, at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple, people outside the temple witness what seems to be fire and light falling upon the building

In both accounts there is a manifestation of God's glory that descends to dwell upon or in the prophet of the restoration and the newly dedicated temple of the Lord.  The first manifestation of shekinah since the dispensation of the meridian of time.   

Edited August 23, 2022 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

The idea of harmony is joining voices together, neither one stronger, nor dominating the other. Harmony is not the product of two or more, each doing their best to sing a solo at the same time, believing their voice (creed) is of greater worth, depth, and beauty than that of the other. Harmony cannot co-exist where one believes they have greater light (vocal quality) while believing the other has dimmer light (lesser vocal quality). The purpose of harmony is to sing together to make more beautiful music than can either apart. The elder who gave this devotion was singing a solo.

No, in fact this is not about harmony, it is about finding the best paradigm by knocking off corners off stones

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

But in your creed, some experiences are correcter 😇 than those of others, right?

There can be no measure of correctness, except what the spirit teaches

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Thanks for sharing.  I find it interesting that you suggest it is used to mark the end of apostacy and the beginning of a new dispensation.  It kind of reminds me of something:

In both accounts there is a manifestation of God's glory that descends to dwell upon or in the prophet of the restoration and the newly dedicated temple of the Lord.  The first manifestation of shekinah since the dispensation of the meridian of time.   

Yes it is interesting. That is why I was surprised when you said that the Shekinah Glory is not a term used among the Saints. In your reply to me you are quoting from something. From what are you quoting? Just curious. The experience at Kirtland sounds a lot like the account of Pentecost. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am provisionally certain it is not. Are you familiar with the concept of provisional certitude? It is the cornerstone of my Christian faith linked with my desire to never stop receiving and learning from wherever light is found. Without a guiding principle of provisional certitude in my life I most likely would never have attended an LDS ward, a Catholic, Baptist, non-denominational, or an Antiochan Orthodox church. I learned much from teaching students who belonged to Jews for Jesus. Each has provided me light for my journey in Christ. I find as much light in one as in either other. Light is where you look for it. All light is illuminating. Harmony can be found wherever two or more are willing to sing together, with neither one believing his or her voice is better, brighter, louder, or of greater value than the other's.

And yet, if you had actually read the link I sent you above, you would see that the speaker says he has the same kind of certainty I have, that he knows and he knows that God knows.

In fact that presentation refutes everything you have said in this thread, point by point.  It is almost as if it was given FOR this thread or that at least I was led to it for this thread. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/worldwide-devotionals/2015/01/tasting-the-light?lang=eng

But I suppose God knows you need to be where you are for now. 

Edited August 23, 2022 by mfbukowski

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Yes it is interesting. That is why I was surprised when you said that the Shekinah Glory is not a term used among the Saints. In your reply to me you are quoting from something. From what are you quoting? Just curious. The experience at Kirtland sounds a lot like the account of Pentecost. 

I found it while searching for Shekinah and Mormonism:

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-10-no-2-2009/where-thy-glory-moses-1-nature-truth-plan-salvation

[Navidad]

45 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No, in fact this is not about harmony, it is about finding the best paradigm by knocking off corners off stones

In fact this is all about harmony, it is not about finding the best paradigm, something which is an impossible quest. Your best paradigm is based on your experience. My best paradigm is based on mine. Therefore it is about harmony and receiving each other's paradigms and truth in a spirit of harmony. This is achievable, although the process can be frustrating (to quote you)! Some months ago I sang a trio in sacrament service of the Come Thou Fount/If We Could Hie to Kolob medley. The rehearsals were very frustrating, doing our best to sing two different songs in harmony. Right up til Sunday morning we (the trio and the accompanist) were only provisionally certain of the outcome. I absolutely believe the Spirit helped us that morning to do a better job in the challenging song than we could ever have done ourselves. We received affirmation from those present that they felt the Spirit as well in our singing. That meant a lot to me since I am not a member. Not only did the three of us sing in harmony, but the congregation was in harmony with us as well. I suggest maybe that is the best paradigm?

If you are attributing your correctness to the teaching of the Spirit, then what of all the others millions who look to the Spirit for their teaching? I have listened for 65 years (since I was 7) for and to the teaching of the Spirit through study, prayer, tears, and quiet listening. Your certainty comes from what you perceive as the Spirit teaching you. Fine. I honor and receive that. However, I also have the teaching of the Spirit in my life. Will you honor and perceive that, or simply continue with your certainty and therefore conclude that you are not just more correct, but that I am incorrect? The fact that I honor and receive your beliefs requires me to have provisional certainty. My faith is not less, nor is it marginalized by that. I am more than content to learn all I can in this life, and wait for my judgment by Christ for certainty and surety. Prior to that day certainty is an impossible dream.

[Navidad]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And yet, if you had actually read the link I sent you above, you would see that the speaker says he has the same kind of certainty I have, that he knows and he knows that God knows.

In fact that presentation refutes everything you have said in this thread, point by point.  It is almost as if it was given FOR this thread or that at least I was led to it for this thread. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/broadcasts/article/worldwide-devotionals/2015/01/tasting-the-light?lang=eng

But I suppose God knows you need to be where you are for now. 

Let me tell you again, I don't want the kind of certainty you have. Can we be clear on that? That is not an aspirational goal for me. In fact, the kind of certainty that causes you to begin most posts with something negative is not for me. "Worse!"  "No," "No" "Opposition in all things" . . . "There can be no" . . . "There is nothing". . . .  "And yet, if you had actually read" . . .

That kind of faith, spirit, certainty, and negativity is not the kind of faith, spirit, certainty, and negativity to which I aspire. I am sorry to say that, but your negative and demeaning certainty gets dulling after a while.

[Navidad]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

I found it while searching for Shekinah and Mormonism:

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-10-no-2-2009/where-thy-glory-moses-1-nature-truth-plan-salvation

Thanks for posting this. I read through it quickly, but will return to it again. This is the kind of exposition of Scripture that I really enjoy!

 

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Navidad said:

In fact this is all about harmony, it is not about finding the best paradigm, something which is an impossible quest. Your best paradigm is based on your experience. My best paradigm is based on mine. Therefore it is about harmony and receiving each other's paradigms and truth in a spirit of harmony. This is achievable, although the process can be frustrating (to quote you)! Some months ago I sang a trio in sacrament service of the Come Thou Fount/If We Could Hie to Kolob medley. The rehearsals were very frustrating, doing our best to sing two different songs in harmony. Right up til Sunday morning we (the trio and the accompanist) were only provisionally certain of the outcome. I absolutely believe the Spirit helped us that morning to do a better job in the challenging song than we could ever have done ourselves. We received affirmation from those present that they felt the Spirit as well in our singing. That meant a lot to me since I am not a member. Not only did the three of us sing in harmony, but the congregation was in harmony with us as well. I suggest maybe that is the best paradigm?

If you are attributing your correctness to the teaching of the Spirit, then what of all the others millions who look to the Spirit for their teaching? I have listened for 65 years (since I was 7) for and to the teaching of the Spirit through study, prayer, tears, and quiet listening. Your certainty comes from what you perceive as the Spirit teaching you. Fine. I honor and receive that. However, I also have the teaching of the Spirit in my life. Will you honor and perceive that, or simply continue with your certainty and therefore conclude that you are not just more correct, but that I am incorrect? The fact that I honor and receive your beliefs requires me to have provisional certainty. My faith is not less, nor is it marginalized by that. I am more than content to learn all I can in this life, and wait for my judgment by Christ for certainty and surety. Prior to that day certainty is an impossible dream.

Of course I honor your experiences.  You must, and I must

I am sorry I can't help you more.

I suggest you read Elder Robbins' talk and Alma 32.  That's in the Book of Mormon, the most "correct" book ever written about what "correctness" even means.

(Clue: If you want to get to, say, Washington DC from wherever you are, what is the correct route?

It will not be the correct route for me because I start from a different place.  And suppose on the way, either of us makes a side trip to the Grand Canyon?

What WAS the true path has now changed for both of us, but YOUR one true route is still not the same as my one true route.

That's why we need a church that is both TRUE AND LIVING and able to abide a relativist truth.

For all I know we are BOTH on our one true path.

But we all need to have a GPS/CHURCH that allows for individual truths that appear different but yet are leading to the same place.

It's not correctness it's Alma 32, it's what works.

What is the one church that puts your GPS ahead of a strip map, like we used in the old days?

You're here looking at it right now.

Relativism.

Alma 32

Follow the Holy Ghost no matter what someone tells you is "correct".

See you in Washington!

I just hope it's in DC !

Ambiguity is death when it locks your mind into substance 

 

 

 

[mfbukowski]

37 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Let me tell you again, I don't want the kind of certainty you have. Can we be clear on that? That is not an aspirational goal for me.

Your wish is my command.

[Navidad]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

What WAS the true path has now changed for both of us, but YOUR one true route is still not the same as my one true route.

Amen! I couldn't agree more. That means we both have the truth as it has relevance to each of our own individual journeys. Acknowledging that means we are in harmony, even though we are singing different songs. It is possible, you know! Take care!

[mfbukowski]

59 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Amen! I couldn't agree more. That means we both have the truth as it has relevance to each of our own individual journeys. Acknowledging that means we are in harmony, even though we are singing different songs. It is possible, you know! Take care!

Provisional certainty in Cartesian metaphysics is the same as absolute certainty in a variable paradigm, except for what it means to experience  either one. 

One is progressive and the other regressive, one is life and the other is a pile of unchanging rocks, itself an illusion. 

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Stargazer]

On 8/21/2022 at 1:48 PM, Navidad said:

Sorry, it was never my intent for this to turn into an apologetic for, defense of, or metaphysical musings about such experiences.

No worries! You have an uncanny talent for asking questions that elicit amazing and fruitful discussions. I am grateful for that, for I have learned much in the various spillovers from your questions.

And welcome back to the board after your recent hiatus. I recall someone posting a question as to your welfare, since you had been absent from the board for some time. See? You are our brother, and we welcome your presence and contributions here!