Oh, now I get it: Purging the word ‘Mormon’ is a bid for the mainstream

[Kenngo1969]

50 minutes ago, the narrator said:

It's a silly CFR request. So, yeah, not interested in spending time on silliness.

If I thought it was nothing more than "a silly CFR request" I wouldn't have made it (or if, on the off chance that I had, I would have made the jocular nature of the request readily apparent).  I would think that anyone who makes the claim that President Russell M. Nelson ... :

Quote

... views the world and its normalizing of LGBT persons as the single greatest threat to the souls of humanity, and everything he does is centered around sheltering the Church against it ...

Ought to be able to back up the claim by producing something such as the following [Please note: The following is for illustrative purposes only.  It is not attributable to President Nelson, I am not attributing it to President Nelson, and President Nelson, contrary to the narrator's assertion, never has said any such thing, nor has he said anything remotely like unto it.  Please note the lack of quotation marks and the lack of a source]:

My Dear Brothers and Sisters, without any desire or intent to offend any of God's children, I feel that, nonetheless, I must speak plainly. While God loves all of His Children, and while we, as His servants, love all of His Children, the normalizing of so-called Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender persons and practices represents the greatest single threat to the souls of humanity today.

[End of fabricated quote.] 

In other words, my CFR request is "silly" only because you can't back up your assertion, and you know you can't back it up.

And I'm the idiot?  Please!

Edited July 16, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[JLHPROF]

I may not agree with her conclusions but many of her observations are valid.

The changes listed in the first few paragraphs have happened.  There is absolutely a cultural shift within the Church away from the different and peculiar teachings.

However why that's happening and what that means for the Church is up for debate.  But I think our 19th century members would find today's Church more like the protestant sects than themselves.

[Ipod Touch]

14 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

You interrupted my nap for that ?

I don't understand.  Wouldn't you have had to be awake and alert to browse this site and see a new post?

Or do you have notifications set to buzz your phone when there is a new post?

[Kenngo1969]

4 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I don't understand.  Wouldn't you have had to be awake and alert to browse this site and see a new post?

Or do you have notifications set to buzz your phone when there is a new post?

I have my alarm set to go off every hour on the hour during non-waking hours so I can check the Board, lest I miss any of the positively scintillating content here at MD&DB.  

[Avatar4321]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:56 AM, Teancum said:

Thoughts on this from Jana Riess?

 

 

 

First, she is begging the question. She thinks the changes are happening to mainstream the Church so she is concluding the are.

Second, she seems really hung up on this. And she really doesn’t get it. It’s been obvious that the name realignment has been positive. And not to mainstream the Church. 
 

I really hope someday it clicks and she starts embracing the Church. But Jesus said the way to know whether something is from the Father or not is to do it. She isn’t willing to follow the prophet on the name of the Church yet

[Avatar4321]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:05 AM, bluebell said:

I don't think she really gets it.

I don’t think she is trying to

[Avatar4321]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:48 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

I think there's a lot of truth to the idea of mainstream assimilation but that's nothing new. The church has been doing that for a very long time. But it does seem to be picking up steam IMO. The church has been undergoing some fairly rapid change and almost all of that seems to be (whether intentioned or not) reducing the peculiarity of the church and its people.

At the same time there does seem to be a kind of self-imposed purging going on within the church. By that I mean that there are Soooo many members stepping away either entirely or partially that the makeup of the church is going to be altered for generations. I think the result of that self-purge will be a smaller church membership that is even more dogmatic than it used to be. So on one hand church leaders seem to be removing some of the peculiarities whilst they are simultaneously prepared for a dramatic change to the membership of the church. A kind of approved purging to maintain only the most dogmatic types around the world.

See I don’t see this. I don’t see why we should conclude that the leaders are trying to mainstream the Church when they get up every conference and specifically remind us that we aren’t going to be the mainstream. The prophecies make it clear. We are a covenant people. 
 

I do think they want to make it as clear as possible who we are and what we represent to prevent our enemies from claiming otherwise.
 

if people are going to reject us, let them do it for what we actually believe and who we actually are and not what others claim about us

i think anyone thinking mainstreaming is the goal isn’t listening 

 

[Avatar4321]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:46 PM, carbon dioxide said:

A smaller, more healthy church is better than a larger church with a lot of fat.  Part of the last days includes a number of people leaving the church.  So I view recent developments of more people leaving as a positive development as it is one more thing moving in the right direction. Things are going exactly as they are supposed to be. We inch closer and closer to the lord coming 

The sifting is happening in all society. But the Lord said He would clean His house first. We should be praying to survive that cleansing

[Avatar4321]

On 7/15/2022 at 8:27 PM, JLHPROF said:

I may not agree with her conclusions but many of her observations are valid.

The changes listed in the first few paragraphs have happened.  There is absolutely a cultural shift within the Church away from the different and peculiar teachings.

However why that's happening and what that means for the Church is up for debate.  But I think our 19th century members would find today's Church more like the protestant sects than themselves.

I disagree. All I’m hearing in conference and talks outside is how we are a peculiar people. They are reemphasizing it

[Duncan]

55 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

See I don’t see this. I don’t see why we should conclude that the leaders are trying to mainstream the Church when they get up every conference and specifically remind us that we aren’t going to be the mainstream. The prophecies make it clear. We are a covenant people. 
 

I do think they want to make it as clear as possible who we are and what we represent to prevent our enemies from claiming otherwise.
 

if people are going to reject us, let them do it for what we actually believe and who we actually are and not what others claim about us

i think anyone thinking mainstreaming is the goal isn’t listening 

 

If the Church doesn't go mainstream it ceases to be relevant in people's lives. If the Church is out of touch with reality then what good is it if it's polluted with salt that nobody ever eats. The Church went mainstream when it was pro vaccine, pro mask, pro shutting down it's chapels, temples etc. It doesn't go mainstream when a leader gives a talk about the US Constitution in General Conference, nobody outside the US cares about the US Constitution, they just don't. They don't go mainstream with our beliefs that make us unique. The Church weaves in and out of the mainstream, for better or for worse. It has to if it wants to be relevant in people's lives

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I disagree. All I’m hearing in conference and talks outside is how we are a peculiar people. They are reemphasizing it

While simultaneously removing all peculiarities.  🤷

[longview]

On 7/15/2022 at 7:27 PM, JLHPROF said:

However why that's happening and what that means for the Church is up for debate.  But I think our 19th century members would find today's Church more like the protestant sects than themselves.

How do you account for this prophecy?

Quote

Daniel 2:45. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

D&C 65:
Revelation on prayer given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, October 30, 1831. 1–2, The keys of the kingdom of God are committed to man on earth, and the gospel cause will triumph; 3–6, The millennial kingdom of heaven will come and join the kingdom of God on earth.
1. Hearken, and lo, a voice as of one sent down from on high, who is mighty and powerful, whose going forth is unto the ends of the earth, yea, whose voice is unto men—Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
2. The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.
3. Yea, a voice crying—Prepare ye the way of the Lord, prepare ye the supper of the Lamb, make ready for the Bridegroom.
4. Pray unto the Lord, call upon his holy name, make known his wonderful works among the people.
5. Call upon the Lord, that his kingdom may go forth upon the earth, that the inhabitants thereof may receive it, and be prepared for the days to come, in the which the Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory, to meet the kingdom of God which is set up on the earth.
6. Wherefore, may the kingdom of God go forth, that the kingdom of heaven may come, that thou, O God, mayest be glorified in heaven so on earth, that thine enemies may be subdued; for thine is the honor, power and glory, forever and ever. Amen.

The church IS the Kingdom of God on earth.  It shall roll forth and eventually fill the whole earth.  It is so peculiar that 80% of my children are NOT active in it.  I am praying that someday they will come back into the fold.

50 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

9 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I disagree. All I’m hearing in conference and talks outside is how we are a peculiar people. They are reemphasizing it

While simultaneously removing all peculiarities. 

I think you know better than to say the absolute "removing all peculiarities".  Apostle Paul had this to say:

Quote

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The church is reaching out to ALL people.  That includes showing kindness to ALL people while still standing firm for the standards of the Gospel.

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

While simultaneously removing all peculiarities.  🤷

Which of the covenants or commandments have been removed?

[bluebell]

12 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I don’t think she is trying to

I think she is sincere.  We just disagree on her conclusions.

[teddyaware]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

If the Church doesn't go mainstream it ceases to be relevant in people's lives. If the Church is out of touch with reality then what good is it if it's polluted with salt that nobody ever eats. The Church went mainstream when it was pro vaccine, pro mask, pro shutting down it's chapels, temples etc. It doesn't go mainstream when a leader gives a talk about the US Constitution in General Conference, nobody outside the US cares about the US Constitution, they just don't. They don't go mainstream with our beliefs that make us unique. The Church weaves in and out of the mainstream, for better or for worse. It has to if it wants to be relevant in people's lives

As the vast majority of the world’s population rebels against God, to the point that they openly and proudly embrace all manner of unrighteousness and ungodliness, the Church will become less and less relevant to a world that’s ripening in iniquity and headed toward the prophesied cataclysmic destructions that will take place prior to and during the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon writers speak to this period of time  as being a great day of separation when the godly and wicked will no longer intermingle. Your ideas are utterly counter to the scriptures.

9 And with righteousness shall the Lord God judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth. And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
10 For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire. (2 Nephi 30)

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, longview said:

How do you account for this prophecy?

The church IS the Kingdom of God on earth.  It shall roll forth and eventually fill the whole earth.  It is so peculiar that 80% of my children are NOT active in it.  I am praying that someday they will come back into the fold.

The Church most certainly is not equivalent to the Kingdom.  The Kingdom of God organization with its Council of 50 wasn't restored until over a decade after the Church.  The Kingdom allows for other religions within its bounds and its leadership council features places for two honorable men of the earth (non-members).

Quote

I think you know better than to say the absolute "removing all peculiarities".  Apostle Paul had this to say:

The church is reaching out to ALL people.  That includes showing kindness to ALL people while still standing firm for the standards of the Gospel.

We are rapidly removing anything that differentiates us in practice from most other Christian denominations.  Claiming because we stand by our beliefs and spread the gospel we are peculiar doesn't make sense.  Pretty soon the only peculiarity left will be the word of wisdom.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Which of the covenants or commandments have been removed?

Which of the covenants and commandments are peculiar to our version of Christianity?

The fact that we preach faith, repentance, sacrifice, obedience, chastity, etc is no different than any Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran.

It's our peculiar doctrines and practices that are being eroded.

[Ranch2727]

I would have to disagree, while you preach those things you go about them a different way. Other than the Catholics the others go about repentance and obedience through Jesus not through the church. I think LDS has a legalistic relationship with God. I’m sure you know that those other churches teach we can’t earn our way to God.  LDS is grace AFTER all you can do.

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As the vast majority of the world’s population rebels against God, to the point that they openly and proudly embrace all manner of unrighteousness and ungodliness, the Church will become less and less relevant to a world that’s ripening in iniquity and headed toward the prophesied cataclysmic destructions that will take place prior to and during the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon writers speak to this period of time  as being a great day of separation when the godly and wicked will no longer intermingle. Your ideas are utterly counter to the scriptures.

9 And with righteousness shall the Lord God judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth. And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
10 For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire. (2 Nephi 30)

if you want to be further deceived and have the Church turn into a Branch Davidian WACO nutcase group than have at it but I won't join with you. God sees his children VASTLY different than you and I am glad he is the only one who gets to judge who's "wicked" and not you and when is also not you "This period of time". Thank Heavens you aren't involved in anything, THANK HEAVENS

Maybe the Lord is calling you to repent from your foolishness and get into the mainstream of the Church and be a light unto the world and not this silly darkness you espouse

Edited July 17, 2022 by Duncan

[JLHPROF]

31 minutes ago, Duncan said:

if you want to be further deceived and have the Church turn into a Branch Davidian WACO nutcase group than have at it but I won't join with you. God sees his children VASTLY different than you and I am glad he is the only one who gets to judge who's "wicked" and not you and when is also not you "This period of time". Thank Heavens you aren't involved in anything, THANK HEAVENS

Maybe the Lord is calling you to repent from your foolishness and get into the mainstream of the Church and be a light unto the world and not this silly darkness you espouse

I don't like Teddy's approach any more than you do.  But he's absolutely right about the increase both in wickedness and in acceptance and promotion of wickedness.

And I don't see much difference between his judging in his post and you in yours. (Or mine in this one).

The mainstream of the Church is definitely shifting.  The question remains if it's towards or away from Godly principles.

[manol]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The Church most certainly is not equivalent to the Kingdom.  The Kingdom of God organization with its Council of 50 wasn't restored until over a decade after the Church.  The Kingdom allows for other religions within its bounds and its leadership council features places for two honorable men of the earth (non-members). 

The part in bold stood out to me when I first started reading about the Council of Fifty, aka Quroum of the Anointed, and my understanding is that it also included women.  

Do you know (or have a good theory about) what Joseph's intentions and aspirations were for the Council of Fifty/Quorum of the Anointed/Kingdom of God? 

Also, what do you make of Jesus' statement that "the Kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21)? 

Edited July 17, 2022 by manol

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, manol said:

The part in bold stood out to me when I first started reading about the Council of Fifty, aka Quroum of the Anointed, and my understanding is that it also included women.  

Do you know (or have a good theory about) what Joseph's intentions and aspirations were for the Council of Fifty/Quorum of the Anointed/Kingdom of God? 

Also, what do you make of Jesus' statement that "the Kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:21)? 

The Council of 50 and the Quorum of the Anointed are two entirely different organizations.  One is a priesthood temple-based organization, the other political.

 

[3DOP]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:18 PM, Teancum said:

I love it.  WHen we are growing fast it is evidence of the truth and the stone cut out of the mountain without hands to fill the entire earth. When the church growth is slowing or possibly retracting its a good thing and sign the end times are soon.  Simply amazing.

Sorry, but from over twenty years in these forums, yes.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Sorry, but from over twenty years in these forums, yes.

 

While it is taught the gospel will go out to be taught worldwide and therefore it makes sense that members would see expansion of missionary work and temples as fulfilling prophecy, it is also pretty clear those who would choose to join the Church would be a small percentage….so depending on what is being focused on and how it is phrased, both are true.

[manol]

26 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The Council of 50 and the Quorum of the Anointed are two entirely different organizations.  One is a priesthood temple-based organization, the other political.

Thanks, sounds like I have some homework to do to get up to speed.