Oh, now I get it: Purging the word ‘Mormon’ is a bid for the mainstream

[california boy]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As the vast majority of the world’s population rebels against God, to the point that they openly and proudly embrace all manner of unrighteousness and ungodliness, the Church will become less and less relevant to a world that’s ripening in iniquity and headed toward the prophesied cataclysmic destructions that will take place prior to and during the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon writers speak to this period of time  as being a great day of separation when the godly and wicked will no longer intermingle. Your ideas are utterly counter to the scriptures.

9 And with righteousness shall the Lord God judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth. And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
10 For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire. (2 Nephi 30)

I know you love throwing these fire bombs condemning everyone but yourself and those few Church members that you believe are following your version of the Gospel, but your accusations are just not true.  The vast majority of the world's population are not rebelling against God.  From Pew Research 55% pray DAILY.  Another 16% pray at least once weekly for a total of 71% that are actively trying to be in touch with God and what he wants them to do.  That doesn't really sound like the majority of the world has turned away from God.

 

What is clear is that the world is walking away from ORGANIZED religion.  

Membership in religious denominations have been dropping like a rock the past couple of decades.  So the question that not only the Church, but other denominations should be asking is why are people still connecting with God, but want less and less with organized religion.  Perhaps it has less to do with your blanket judgement of wickedness and more to do with religion seeping into politics, less interest in taking care of the poor and unfortunate and more interested in their stock portfolio, ousting of gay families from their organizations to name a few.  

As far as the "Last Days" are here, where wickedness will reign, you might remember that people were saying those SAME THINGS right after the crucifixion of Christ, and picked up again during the time of Joseph Smith.  In fact, there is not a single period of history where Christianity hasn't claimed that the world was living in the last days.  How many times can you cry wolf before people no longer believe that mantra of religious sects?  And perhaps it is this self righteous place you put yourself and a select few that is also causing people to get as far away from organized religion as possible.  For a lot of people, your organized religion don't really match the Gospel that Christ taught. To a lot of people it often resembles more how the pharisees were treating their followers. 

[Peacefully]

3 minutes ago, california boy said:

I know you love throwing these fire bombs condemning everyone but yourself and those few Church members that you believe are following your version of the Gospel, but your accusations are just not true.  The vast majority of the world's population are not rebelling against God.  From Pew Research 55% pray DAILY.  Another 16% pray at least once weekly for a total of 71% that are actively trying to be in touch with God and what he wants them to do.  That doesn't really sound like the majority of the world has turned away from God.

 

What is clear is that the world is walking away from ORGANIZED religion.  

Membership in religious denominations have been dropping like a rock the past couple of decades.  So the question that not only the Church, but other denominations should be asking is why are people still connecting with God, but want less and less with organized religion.  Perhaps it has less to do with your blanket judgement of wickedness and more to do with religion seeping into politics, less interest in taking care of the poor and unfortunate and more interested in their stock portfolio, ousting of gay families from their organizations to name a few.  

As far as the "Last Days" are here, where wickedness will reign, you might remember that people were saying those SAME THINGS right after the crucifixion of Christ, and picked up again during the time of Joseph Smith.  In fact, there is not a single period of history where Christianity hasn't claimed that the world was living in the last days.  How many times can you cry wolf before people no longer believe that mantra of religious sects?  And perhaps it is this self righteous place you put yourself and a select few that is also causing people to get as far away from organized religion as possible.  For a lot of people, your organized religion don't really match the Gospel that Christ taught. To a lot of people it often resembles more how the pharisees were treating their followers. 

I’m hopeful that Teddy doesn’t speak for the majority of Latter-day Saints. 

[the narrator]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:41 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

In other words, my CFR request is "silly" only because you can't back up your assertion, and you know you can't back it up.

Your CFR is silly because my assertion can be the case without Nelson explicitly detailing out his views in a single statement or sermon. This is true for the vast majority of things that are true. I assume you were aware of that, but I guess not.

A long look at the many statements, policies (such as Nelson's policy of exclusion that was supposed revealed and then rescinded by revelation, and gestures made by Nelson make my assertion very clear to me. You can disagree if you want. I don't care one little bit what you think on it.

[Avatar4321]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Which of the covenants and commandments are peculiar to our version of Christianity?

The fact that we preach faith, repentance, sacrifice, obedience, chastity, etc is no different than any Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, Lutheran.

It's our peculiar doctrines and practices that are being eroded.

Can you name a single other branch of Christianity with our temple covenants? Or that are building g temples at all? The redemption of the dead? Eternal marriage? Pre earth life?

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Your CFR is silly because my assertion can be the case without Nelson explicitly detailing out his views in a single statement or sermon. This is true for the vast majority of things that are true. I assume you were aware of that, but I guess not.

A long look at the many statements, policies (such as Nelson's policy of exclusion that was supposed revealed and then rescinded by revelation, and gestures made by Nelson make my assertion very clear to me. You can disagree if you want. I don't care one little bit what you think on it.

Narrator, are you stating it as a fact or an opinion?  Opinion, no CFR needed; as a fact, you need to document your reasoning.  It seems though since you are pulling together behaviours to come up with a whole greater than its parts (as none on their own would be sufficient), that it is opinion to me.   It is a very significant claim, imo, and if claimed as a fact, documentation should be provided. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

6 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Can you name a single other branch of Christianity with our temple covenants? Or that are building g temples at all? The redemption of the dead? Eternal marriage? Pre earth life?

The temple covenants aren't peculiar.  The method by which we make them is.  As for eternal marriage and premortality they may be peculiar but little by little we are walking back expanded teachings on the subjects and claiming "we don't actually know".

Take a look at any thread on polygamy and eternal marriage.  We are constantly trying to speculate our way away from peculiar and towards mysterious.  Spirit children, eternal family relationships, eternal increase, meaning of sealing, exaltation, future worlds.  All taught clearly and now being walked back by the progressive membership.  Because it's too peculiar.

Premortality is less altered but numerous previous peculiar teachings are now regularly questioned or disavowed.  Did we covenant with our families in premortality?  Did we hold Priesthood?  Receive ordinances?  Did our actions there influence our birth situations here?

We'll teach premortality and eternal families.  But we'll claim to know little about them because previous peculiarities are considered an issue.

[the narrator]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Narrator, are you stating it as a fact or an opinion?  Opinion, no CFR needed; as a fact, you need to document your reasoning.  It seems though since you are pulling together behaviours to come up with a whole greater than its parts (as none on their own would be sufficient), that it is opinion to me.   It is a very significant claim, imo, and if claimed as a fact, documentation should be provided. 

While I think my assertion is factual, I thought the way I phrased it made it pretty darn clear that this was my own conjecture, given that Nelson hasn't and would be unlikely to ever phrase it in the way that I have.

[Teancum]

On 7/15/2022 at 4:44 PM, carbon dioxide said:

The church is growing and it will fill the earth at some point in the 1000 year millennium.  Patience my friend 

That's a new spin on the teaching.

[Teancum]

On 7/16/2022 at 11:04 PM, Avatar4321 said:

First, she is begging the question. She thinks the changes are happening to mainstream the Church so she is concluding the are.

Second, she seems really hung up on this. And she really doesn’t get it. It’s been obvious that the name realignment has been positive. And not to mainstream the Church. 
 

I really hope someday it clicks and she starts embracing the Church. But Jesus said the way to know whether something is from the Father or not is to do it. She isn’t willing to follow the prophet on the name of the Church yet

I think he would say she does embrace the church.

[Teancum]

18 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Sorry, but from over twenty years in these forums, yes.

It is a win win strategy..😁

[InCognitus]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

As far as the "Last Days" are here, where wickedness will reign, you might remember that people were saying those SAME THINGS right after the crucifixion of Christ, and picked up again during the time of Joseph Smith.  In fact, there is not a single period of history where Christianity hasn't claimed that the world was living in the last days.

Being in the "last days" is relative.  Obviously we are called the "Latter-day Saints", but "latter" is to distinguish it from the "former", and not an indication of a count down clock that is ticking down to some final event.  However, the indication that we are in the "last days" is different now than it was right after the crucifixion of Christ or any other time in history because of events that have unfolded.  The primary difference now is the gathering of Israel, and all that goes along with that:

1. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon out of the earth in 1827 on the day of Israel's feast of trumpets, and it being published in 1830 (preparing for the fulfillment of Isaiah 29:17-18, "Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed a forest?").  
2. The restoration of "the keys of the gathering of Israel" by Moses in the Kirtland temple (D&C 110:11) on April 3, 1836.
3. October 24, 1841 - Elder Orson Hyde's dedication of the Holy Land “for the gathering together of Judah’s scattered remnants” and as a land of promise for all the scattered children of Abraham.

I'm not going to elaborate on what has happened since that time, but I'll just sum it up by saying Israel is being gathered.  That puts us in a very different place in the timeline than any other prior claim to be in the "last days" in Christian history.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Being in the "last days" is relative.  Obviously we are called the "Latter-day Saints", but "latter" is to distinguish it from the "former", and not an indication of a count down clock that is ticking down to some final event.  However, the indication that we are in the "last days" is different now than it was right after the crucifixion of Christ or any other time in history because of events that have unfolded.  The primary difference now is the gathering of Israel, and all that goes along with that:

1. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon out of the earth in 1827 on the day of Israel's feast of trumpets, and it being published in 1830 (preparing for the fulfillment of Isaiah 29:17-18, "Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed a forest?").  
2. The restoration of "the keys of the gathering of Israel" by Moses in the Kirtland temple (D&C 110:11) on April 3, 1836.
3. October 24, 1841 - Elder Orson Hyde's dedication of the Holy Land “for the gathering together of Judah’s scattered remnants” and as a land of promise for all the scattered children of Abraham.

I'm not going to elaborate on what has happened since that time, but I'll just sum it up by saying Israel is being gathered.  That puts us in a very different place in the timeline than any other prior claim to be in the "last days" in Christian history.

I grew up during the whole Saturday's Warriors period where we were at the last seconds of the 11th hour when Christ would come soon. The chosen generation that would usher in the coming.  My seminary teacher figured out through adding all the dates up in the Bible that Christ would come in 1989.  As a teen, this seemed like so far in the future, but we better prepare.  Those that don't pay their tithing were going to be scorched from the earth.  Blah, Blah, Blah.

Joseph Smith and the early Church members believed that Christ would come during their lifetime.  Joseph even prophesied that Christ would come before he reached 85.

Quote

 

Joseph Smith did make several interesting statements about seeing the Savior. B.H. Roberts in History of the Church notes the Prophet's remark in 1835 when he is reported to have said that,

...it was the will of God that those who went Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.[1]

In Feb 1835, fifty six years in the future was February 1891. This would be shortly after Joseph's 85th birthday (he was born 23 December 1805).

 

 

My real point is that this narrative has been used to make those that are in the "know" of this great event were going to be saved, and all the rest of the people on earth were not going to be prepared unless they follow the "prophet".  Teddy's post is exactly how this whole frightening thing has always been used

Quote

The Book of Mormon writers speak to this period of time  as being a great day of separation when the godly and wicked will no longer intermingle. Your ideas are utterly counter to the scriptures.

And then he goes in for the kill and uses BoM quote to tell us exactly what is going to happen to everyone except the "righteous", aka him and those that believe the same as he does.  

Quote

9 And with righteousness shall the Lord God judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth. And he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
10 For the time speedily cometh that the Lord God shall cause a great division among the people, and the wicked will he destroy; and he will spare his people, yea, even if it so be that he must destroy the wicked by fire. (2 Nephi 30)

Where everyone but him and those that believe like he does are going to be burned by fire and destroyed. Hurrah!  They get what they deserve.  But, because I am following God in the correct manner, I will be saved.  The old tithing is fire insurance story that I heard regularly growing up.  

Doesn't it seem like this is brought out on a regular basis, just like Teddy did here, to scare the people to not stray from the Church's script and to make them feel "righteous" and better than all those that will be toast in the "very near future". How many times can you call wolf before people are no longer interested in your threats?  I believe these kinds of threats are just adding to the reasons why more people are leaving organized religion then staying.  It all sounds like baloney and scam tatics.

Edited July 18, 2022 by california boy

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

I grew up during the whole Saturday's Warriors period where we were at the last seconds of the 11th hour when Christ would come soon. The chosen generation that would usher in the coming.  My seminary teacher figured out through adding all the dates up in the Bible that Christ would come in 1989.  As a teen, this seemed like so far in the future, but we better prepare.  Those that don't pay their tithing were going to be scorched from the earth.  Blah, Blah, Blah.

My real point is that this narrative has been used to make those that are in the "know" of this great event were going to be saved, and all the rest of the people on earth were not going to be prepared unless they follow the "prophet".  Teddy's post is exactly how this whole frightening thing has always been used

In regards to the bold, I think there have been plenty of members who have used it this way, but I don't think we really see it from the pulpit.  Especially not in the last few decades.  

And your seminary teacher was obviously very bad at math.  So has every person been that I've heard of who has also figured out the day that He was coming back.

[InCognitus]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

Joseph Smith and the early Church members believed that Christ would come during their lifetime.  Joseph even prophesied that Christ would come before he reached 85.

You probably already know this since you linked the FAIR article on this and hopefully have read it, that this (the bolded part above) wasn't a prophesy.  In fact, Joseph believed exactly the opposite of what you said above:

"I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time". (D&C 130:14-17.)

He also said:  "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face."  This is a clear indication that he didn't know the real meaning of the statement.

4 hours ago, california boy said:

My real point is that this narrative has been used to make those that are in the "know" of this great event were going to be saved, and all the rest of the people on earth were not going to be prepared unless they follow the "prophet".

I understand.  My only point is that even though people have been believing we are in the "last times" for hundreds of years, there are particular milestones that we've reached relatively recently, or things that have changed in the last 150 years (like the gathering of Israel) that may indicate that we really are approaching the "last times". 

Edited July 18, 2022 by InCognitus

[InCognitus]

23 hours ago, california boy said:

What is clear is that the world is walking away from ORGANIZED religion.  

Compared to this:

 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Compared to this:

 

So you don't think that there are many walking away from the Church over these issues?  No one from all these members on this board that report their own children have left the Church?  Brothers, sisters, sometimes parents, high percentage of youth????

OK then,  carry on.  All is well in Zoin

[InCognitus]

15 minutes ago, california boy said:

So you don't think that there are many walking away from the Church over these issues?  No one from all these members on this board that report their own children have left the Church?  Brothers, sisters, sometimes parents, high percentage of youth????

OK then,  carry on.  All is well in Zoin

Does your graph represent only the membership affiliation of individuals in an organized religion, or does it specifically show those who have "walked away... over these issues"?   It doesn't, by the way, so I'm comparing apples to apples.

[RevTestament]

On 7/15/2022 at 7:56 AM, Teancum said:

Thoughts on this from Jana Riess?

 

 

 

I just think Jana Riess is wrong. I believe Pres Nelson is just trying to follow the Lord's wishes rather than what the world thinks. To me it was refreshing, and I am happy that Pres Nelson did it. I believe the Church was all to permissive in allowing outsiders to call us  "the Mormon church," and sometimes in using that themselves. What Pres Nelson did is the only  real hope of stopping that. While it may have a small effect of mainstreaming the Church, I do not believe that was the motivation behind it. The "I am a Mormon" campaign wasn't picking up any steam, and was expensive - so also from a practical matter, I believe the move made sense. I for one am totally happy with the move, and feel it was about time the Church did it, and that someone grew some.