Temples to Return to Full Operation

[Scott Lloyd]

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/temples-full-operation
 

This is good news indeed. 
 

I’ve not yet heard whether my temple (Draper Utah) is resuming full, unrestricted operation, but I suppose I’ll know by this Saturday when I return to my shift after two weeks of temple closure for cleaning. 

[Nacho2dope]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/temples-full-operation
 

This is good news indeed. 
 

I’ve not yet heard whether my temple (Draper Utah) is resuming full, unrestricted operation, but I suppose I’ll know by this Saturday when I return to my shift after two weeks of temple closure for cleaning. 

That is great news! 

[JLHPROF]

Quote

"We are eager to return the temples to full operation as soon as possible. Now that more people are immunized, we are pleased to announce that temples throughout the world will gradually return to more normal operations, including the elimination of face masks and capacity restrictions."

Any bets if they'll restore the ordinances they changed due to Covid?  

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Any bets if they'll restore the ordinances they changed due to Covid?  

None of the ordinances were changed, though the presentation was altered a bit, as has happened at certain times in the history of the Church. 

[JustAnAustralian]

This is great if the members aren't selfish jerks who go to the temple unmasked when they know they are sick.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, JustAnAustralian said:

This is great if the members aren't selfish jerks who go to the temple unmasked when they know they are sick.

If they are sick, they shouldn’t go at all. 

[JustAnAustralian]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If they are sick, they shouldn’t go at all. 

Correct, but as we know from pre-covid church, not everyone thinks that way. Especially if they think it's just a sniffle.

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Correct, but as we know from pre-covid church, not everyone thinks that way. Especially if they think it's just a sniffle.

My nose is always plugged or running from allergies, even in winter (due to dust mites), so it can take a few days to figure out the sore throat, congestion or ear ache is something more. But I err on the side of caution as long as I notice it is more than usual. But I have thought a sore throat was just a case of sleeping on my back too much more than once. If I had stayed home every time my allergies flared a bit in the past, my entire life would have been stuck at home like I am now.  
 

When you are a Primary teacher and can’t find a substitute for your class, there are good reasons to rationalize going, especially if the cold is already going around the schools. And I can see a temple worker feeling the same way about letting people down.
 

I wish mask wearing was a custom in the West like it is in Asia, though that is more outside and for pollution from what I understand.  It is a shame there is so much anti mask feeling out there that now some people aren’t wearing because they feel awkward about it rather than because they don’t want to. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

My nose is always plugged or running from allergies, even in winter (due to dust mites), so it can take a few days to figure out the sore throat, congestion or ear ache is something more. But I err on the side of caution as long as I notice it is more than usual. But I have thought a sore throat was just a case of sleeping on my back too much more than once. If I had stayed home every time my allergies flared a bit in the past, my entire life would have been stuck at home like I am now.  
 

When you are a Primary teacher and can’t find a substitute for your class, there are good reasons to rationalize going, especially if the cold is already going around the schools. And I can see a temple worker feeling the same way about letting people down.
 

I wish mask wearing was a custom in the West like it is in Asia, though that is more outside and for pollution from what I understand.  It is a shame there is so much anti mask feeling out there that now some people aren’t wearing because they feel awkward about it rather than because they don’t want to. 

I haven't worn mine to the schools I sub at recently. Re-thinking my poor decision now with a possible new variant on the horizon and feeling like I may be getting the flu, or it's lack of sleep, feeling really dizzy. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

My nose is always plugged or running from allergies, even in winter (due to dust mites), so it can take a few days to figure out the sore throat, congestion or ear ache is something more. But I err on the side of caution as long as I notice it is more than usual. But I have thought a sore throat was just a case of sleeping on my back too much more than once. If I had stayed home every time my allergies flared a bit in the past, my entire life would have been stuck at home like I am now.  

Up until COVID, whenever I got a head cold, it was usually always followed by 6-8 weeks of congestion and throaty coughing.  Actual infectious illness maybe a week of that, the rest is just something that happens to me.  I'd get one, maybe two, head colds a year.  I guess that means I'll be self-quarantining for 4 months a year, for the rest of my life.  Either that, or put up a losing battle to educate every judgey-mc-judgerson who will assume I'm one of those "selfish jerks who go to the temple unmasked when they know they are sick".

Edited March 16, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Up until COVID, whenever I got a head cold, it was usually always followed by 6-8 weeks of congestion and throaty coughing.  Actual infectious illness maybe a week of that, the rest is just something that happens to me.  I'd get one, maybe two, head colds a year.  I guess that means I'll be self-quarantining for 4 months a year, for the rest of my life.  Either that, or put up a losing battle to educate every judgey-mc-judgerson who will assume I'm one of those "selfish jerks who go to the temple unmasked when they know they are sick".

Yeah, when I get a cold it takes forever for the symptoms to go away, especially the throaty coughing. Luckily, it appears I only get them once a year since I got diagnosed with my sleep disorder about 25 years ago, if that since I stopped almost all driving due to dizziness (about 4 years ago).  I just don’t get out enough. However, recently started swimming and hope to make it at least twice a week, so who knows. May be back to the yearly cold. 

[JustAnAustralian]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

If I had stayed home every time my allergies flared a bit in the past, my entire life would have been stuck at home like I am now

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

..usually always followed by 6-8 weeks of congestion and throaty coughing. Actual infectious illness maybe a week of that, the rest is just something that happens to me.  I'd get one, maybe two, head colds a year.  I guess that means I'll be self-quarantining for 4 months a year, for the rest of my life.  Either that, or put up a losing battle to educate every judgey-mc-judgerson who will assume I'm one of those "selfish jerks who go to the temple unmasked when they know they are sick".

There's a difference between KNOWING it's not something spreadable and just thinking it doesn't matter. I'm not telling people they should stay home for things they know aren't going to spread.

If you KNOW it's just the tail end of something and you're not infectious, or your KNOW it's just allergies, then you're not sick in a way that it's going to spread. I've gone to church when my throat is sore when I know it's because I talked too much the night before, or scratched it with some food, etc. 

But if you're in the middle of cold and flu season, and you end up with a runny nose that doesn't match with any leadups or allergies, then there's a good chance you can spread what it is you have.

 

 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

 It is a shame there is so much anti mask feeling out there that now some people aren’t wearing because they feel awkward about it rather than because they don’t want to. 

Yes. If people were comfortable wearing masks if they thought they were sick (and knew how to wear them properly) there would be a lot fewer cases of colds and flu each year.

 

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Either that, or put up a losing battle to educate every judgey-mc-judgerson who will assume I'm one of those "selfish jerks who go to the temple unmasked when they know they are sick".

I can tell you right now, if there was someone sitting next to me in a temple session without a mask and regularly having a congested throaty cough, my thoughts would not be on feeling the spirit, they would be on trying not to have the person next to me breath on me. I don't know if they're just having the after affects of something, or if they're like the person that went to a YSA convention in Australia last year and spread coronavirus and caused the convention to be cancelled mid-way through, or the person that turned up to a different YSA convention in Australia last year while they were waiting for a coronavirus test result (and so were meant to be isolating), causing a whole lot of extra work there too.

But if you think people might assume it's something nasty, and you know it's not, it seriously that much of a difficulty for you to tell the person sitting near you that "it's not contagious"?

Edited March 16, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[Calm]

2 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

But if you think people might assume it's something nasty, and you know it's not, it seriously that much of a difficulty for you to tell the person sitting near you that "it's not contagious"?

I am always saying “allergies”, lol.

[LoudmouthMormon]

10 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

There's a difference between KNOWING it's not something spreadable and just thinking it doesn't matter. I'm not telling people they should stay home for things they know aren't going to spread.

That's fair.  But I can't help thinking that a cough or a wet sneeze is the 2020's version of taking your kid with a black eye out in public.  Both might get the cops called on you.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

That's fair.  But I can't help thinking that a cough or a wet sneeze is the 2020's version of taking your kid with a black eye out in public.  Both might get the cops called on you.

I ride trax to work when I am not biking.  Whenever someone is coughing on public transit, most people ignore it.  If they are not wearing a mask (something that is still required on public transit), most people still ignore it - a few concerned looks here and there, I have never seen any dirty/mean looks or verbal confrontations.  Sometimes people will move their seat to get as far away as possible (myself included).  The problem is that in public, no one knows if this is a person who is irresponsible and infectious (having done contact tracing, I know that there are PLENTY of those), or if this is a person who just has a lingering cough but has completed isolation, or has an unrelated cough.  One shouldn't just assume that everyone is responsible (especially in places like public transit) and are not actually infectious.  I am going to protect myself.  I am not going to talk to them and assess their situation - that would annoy most people.   Nothing wrong with that.  It certainly can make people uncomfortable, naturally.  I think that should be expected.  What can you do?  

Edited March 16, 2022 by pogi

[Durangout]

20 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

None of the ordinances were changed, though the presentation was altered a bit, as has happened at certain times in the history of the Church. 

Right.  Just As it has happened throughout history as well.  Likewise there were differences in the presentation of the Endowment for Nephi ( Tree of Life), Jacob (Jacob’s Ladder), Bro of Jared (16 stones experience) …the presentations is adapted for the time / culture of the recipient.

[InCognitus]

17 minutes ago, Durangout said:

Right.  Just As it has happened throughout history as well.  Likewise there were differences in the presentation of the Endowment for Nephi ( Tree of Life), Jacob (Jacob’s Ladder), Bro of Jared (16 stones experience) …the presentations is adapted for the time / culture of the recipient.

Or even (possibly) as this 1993 BYU Studies article may indicate from Christian era burial clothing in Fayum, Egypt:

I made another post on this article a while ago, here.

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Durangout said:

Right.  Just As it has happened throughout history as well.  Likewise there were differences in the presentation of the Endowment for Nephi ( Tree of Life), Jacob (Jacob’s Ladder), Bro of Jared (16 stones experience) …the presentations is adapted for the time / culture of the recipient.

 Sigh...it's NOT the presentation that is changed.  This claim is continually made but it's simply false.

For example - in the early days of the Church all participants ate raisins to symbolize the partaking of the fruit.  In the early days in Salt Lake the participants entered a garden greenhouse attached on the South side of the temple that was later removed.  Then the live actors as Adam and Eve were the only ones eating fruit.  Then it was a video recording played on screen..
As far as we can tell Moses saw this in vision on the mountaintop for his endowment (as recorded in Genesis/Moses).  Abraham also saw this in a slightly different vision outlined in Abraham.

This is ALL presentation and can and does change.

Removing the partaking of the fruit in the garden would be a change, not to presentation but to content.  Content is what is being changed, eliminated, added, subtracted.  Again and again.

Edited March 16, 2022 by JLHPROF

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

 Sigh...it's NOT the presentation that is changed.  This claim is continually made but it's simply false.

For example - in the early days of the Church all participants ate raisins to symbolize the partaking of the fruit.  In the early days in Salt Lake the participants entered a garden greenhouse attached on the South side of the temple that was later removed.  Then the live actors as Adam and Eve were the only ones eating fruit.  Then it was a video recording played on screen..
As far as we can tell Moses saw this in vision on the mountaintop for his endowment (as recorded in Genesis/Moses).  Abraham also saw this in a slightly different vision outlined in Abraham.

This is ALL presentation and can and does change.

Removing the partaking of the fruit in the garden would be a change, not to presentation but to content.  Content is what is being changed, eliminated, added, subtracted.  Again and again.

So (not trying to argue, just understand where you are coming from better), when the prophets and apostles say that the ordinances haven't been changed, is it your belief that they aren't being honest, or that they don't understand the temple endowment as well as you do, or something else that I haven't considered?

(I realize that the bolded can come across snarky or sarcastic but I don't mean it that way.  I just couldn't think of a better way to say it).

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

So (not trying to argue, just understand where you are coming from better), when the prophets and apostles say that the ordinances haven't been changed, is it your belief that they aren't being honest, or that they don't understand the temple endowment as well as you do, or something else that I haven't considered?

(I realize that the bolded can come across snarky or sarcastic but I don't mean it that way.  I just couldn't think of a better way to say it).

You're right it did come across snarky just as any response I give will unavoidably come across arrogant.  So I won't address the specific question except to say I don't believe them dishonest but they believe as members here state regularly - only presentation is changing.

But the idea that key parts of ordinances are not the ordinance is wrong.

Perhaps Joseph can explain it better than I can.

"Upon the same principle do I contend that baptism is a sign ordained of God, for the believer in Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the kingdom of God, “for except ye are born of water, and of the spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” saith the Saviour. It is a sign, and commandment whichGod has set for man to enter into his Kingdom. Those who seek to enter in any other way will seek in vain; and God will not receive them, neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted: for they have not obeyed the ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him for; and give him a title to a celestial glory; and God has decreed that all who will not obey his voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? to go with that society who have not obeyed his commands. Baptism is a sign to God, to Angels, and to heaven that we do the will of God: and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to him, to be saved, and enter into the kingdom of God, except faith in Jesus Christ; repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and any other course is in vain; then you have the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost. What is the sign of the healing of the sick? the laying on of hands is the sign, or way marked out by James; and the custom of the ancient Saints as ordered by the Lord; and we can not obtain the blessing by pursuing any other course, except the way marked out by the Lord.

What if we should attempt to get the gift of the Holy Ghost through any other means, except the signs, or way which God hath appointed? should we obtain it? certainly not; all other means would fail. The Lord says do so, and so, and I will bless, so, and so.

There are certain key-words, and signs belonging to the priesthood, which must be observed in order to obtain the blessing, the sign of Peter was to repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins, with the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost: and in no other way is the gift of the Holy Ghost obtained."

The temple is no different.

[2BizE]

Any news about the temples in Europe/Asia? I think Covid has quieted down most places except maybe China??

[Scott Lloyd]

I just got word that patron capacity and baptisms-per-hour capacity has been increased at our temple effective immediately. 
 

No word yet on the lifting of the mask requirement or on anything else other than to note that we are gradually moving into Phase IV operation in accordance with First Presidency direction (see the link in my OP). 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

43 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You're right it did come across snarky just as any response I give will unavoidably come across arrogant.  So I won't address the specific question except to say I don't believe them dishonest but they believe as members here state regularly - only presentation is changing.

But the idea that key parts of ordinances are not the ordinance is wrong.

Perhaps Joseph can explain it better than I can.

"Upon the same principle do I contend that baptism is a sign ordained of God, for the believer in Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the kingdom of God, “for except ye are born of water, and of the spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” saith the Saviour. It is a sign, and commandment whichGod has set for man to enter into his Kingdom. Those who seek to enter in any other way will seek in vain; and God will not receive them, neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted: for they have not obeyed the ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him for; and give him a title to a celestial glory; and God has decreed that all who will not obey his voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? to go with that society who have not obeyed his commands. Baptism is a sign to God, to Angels, and to heaven that we do the will of God: and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to him, to be saved, and enter into the kingdom of God, except faith in Jesus Christ; repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and any other course is in vain; then you have the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost. What is the sign of the healing of the sick? the laying on of hands is the sign, or way marked out by James; and the custom of the ancient Saints as ordered by the Lord; and we can not obtain the blessing by pursuing any other course, except the way marked out by the Lord.

What if we should attempt to get the gift of the Holy Ghost through any other means, except the signs, or way which God hath appointed? should we obtain it? certainly not; all other means would fail. The Lord says do so, and so, and I will bless, so, and so.

There are certain key-words, and signs belonging to the priesthood, which must be observed in order to obtain the blessing, the sign of Peter was to repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins, with the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost: and in no other way is the gift of the Holy Ghost obtained."

The temple is no different.

So, just to be crystal clear, then, you claim to understand the endowment better than the prophets and apostles, right?

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You're right it did come across snarky just as any response I give will unavoidably come across arrogant.  So I won't address the specific question except to say I don't believe them dishonest but they believe as members here state regularly - only presentation is changing.

But the idea that key parts of ordinances are not the ordinance is wrong.

Perhaps Joseph can explain it better than I can.

"Upon the same principle do I contend that baptism is a sign ordained of God, for the believer in Christ to take upon himself in order to enter into the kingdom of God, “for except ye are born of water, and of the spirit ye cannot enter into the kingdom of God,” saith the Saviour. It is a sign, and commandment whichGod has set for man to enter into his Kingdom. Those who seek to enter in any other way will seek in vain; and God will not receive them, neither will the angels acknowledge their works as accepted: for they have not obeyed the ordinances, nor attended to the signs which God ordained for the salvation of man, to prepare him for; and give him a title to a celestial glory; and God has decreed that all who will not obey his voice shall not escape the damnation of hell. What is the damnation of hell? to go with that society who have not obeyed his commands. Baptism is a sign to God, to Angels, and to heaven that we do the will of God: and there is no other way beneath the heavens whereby God hath ordained for man to come to him, to be saved, and enter into the kingdom of God, except faith in Jesus Christ; repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and any other course is in vain; then you have the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost. What is the sign of the healing of the sick? the laying on of hands is the sign, or way marked out by James; and the custom of the ancient Saints as ordered by the Lord; and we can not obtain the blessing by pursuing any other course, except the way marked out by the Lord.

What if we should attempt to get the gift of the Holy Ghost through any other means, except the signs, or way which God hath appointed? should we obtain it? certainly not; all other means would fail. The Lord says do so, and so, and I will bless, so, and so.

There are certain key-words, and signs belonging to the priesthood, which must be observed in order to obtain the blessing, the sign of Peter was to repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins, with the promise of the gift of the Holy Ghost: and in no other way is the gift of the Holy Ghost obtained."

The temple is no different.

So you believe that the prophets and apostles do no understand the endowment correctly.  That's what I'm getting from this so if I'm misunderstanding please clarify.  

Thanks for providing the JS quote.  I'm not reading it the same way that it seems you are.  I am also not sure that JS is completely correct in his understanding.  He claims that James taught that the sign of healing of the sick was the laying on of hands and we cannot be healed any other way, but James also taught in the bible that healing could come through prayer alone.  We also have a very prominent story in the NT of a large group of people being given the Holy Ghost before they were baptized and without the laying on of hands.

What I'm reading in that quote is that God sets the sign, not man.  I am not reading JS trying to teach that God does not ever or cannot ever modify the sign to fit different circumstances.   It seems obvious that temple covenants were not received by those in the OT the same way that JS taught the endowment in his day, for example.

[Duncan]

Our temple has 36 seats and will now up capacity to 14, from what I heard. I'm going tomorrow and will see what is actually happening. To be honest though I feel very uncomfortable being in a room with people with no windows and the door is closed for an hour, I prefer the covid restrictions, I don't feel as claustrophobic!