The Trailer for "Banner of Heaven" has dropped

[strappinglad]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I am wondering if you think it possible looking back now. 

I never once saw even a hint of such behavior. Mind you, I didn't have much interaction with the adults, just a couple of the kids. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Until now I never made the connection between earlier iterations of the endowment and the method of murder used by the Laffertys. It makes me wonder if some of Brigham Young’s teachings about blood atonement derive from the same source. 

I have no intention of discussing specific temple content, but smac’s post has given me something to think about. 

Big difference between “if” and “rather than.”

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

I lived in Spanish Fork when the Lafferty's committed their horrific crime. A member of the stake presidency that had excommunicated the brothers lived across the street from us. It was rather scary and nerve racking for them. And I certainly made the connection you reference above back then. I certainly tainted the endowment till it as changed for my wife and for me.

Big difference between “if” and “rather than.”

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Correct on all counts.

People have always corrupted the Gospel for evil.  (Warren Jeffs, Evil LeBaron, etc).

Then the Church removed a key part of the ordinances and made everyone feel better.

See the above two posts.

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

The brothers claim the dad was violently abusive and beat their mother and them until they were old enough to fight back.  I assume that was something kept behind doors if it happened, I guess I am wondering if you think it possible looking back now. 

I knew one of the Lafferty brothers.  He was our home teacher.  He was younger than Ron and Dan, but just as messed up.  They were 2nd amendment, antigovernment fanatics who thought the Republican party and the Mormon church were on the wrong side of liberal.  It is true that their father, was abusive. I heard this from the brother.

Our Lafferty home teacher talked me into going to a court hearing in Spanish Fork.  One of the Brothers, I think it was Dan, rolled a highway patrolman's arm up in his window and drove off.  This was during a traffic stop.  It ended up in court.  I reluctantly showed up, mostly out of curiosity. It was one of those decisions you wished you had a do over on. 

The room was filled with right wing nuts.  All were agitated.  The Judge found him guilty. I think the sentence was probation and a fine. Lafferty got up along with some of his supporters and caused a disturbance which got him a contempt of court charge and 90 sentence at the point of the mountain for a psych evaluation.  While at the prison, Lafferty showed my friend, who was a guard, a letter he had received from the first presidency.  They were asking him to please stop what he was doing and return to the fold. My guard friend (who also knew the Lafferty family) said the letter had a sincere and kind tone to it.  I guess Lafferty remained unconvinced. 

Our home teacher started spending more and more time at what he called his brother's compound in AF. He was sharing weirder and weirder thoughts and beliefs. It scared us.  He finally crossed the line when he wanted to have a prayer circle with our family.  This was a couple of days after the cops were called to his house, which was just down the street from us, for firing a gun in town.  He had taken his T.V. (instrument of the devil he told us) out to the back yard and shot gunned it.  I went to the Bishop on this, and requested a new home teacher.  The Bishop did more than this. He released Lafferty from all his callings. Lafferty was very upset and continued to come to our house to vent.  I worried he would find out who ratted him out. 

At the time, I had just graduated school and had accepted a job in the Bay Area.  We left the state within the month.  It wasn't too soon for us.  We heard about the murders a few months later.  It made all the California papers,

 

[Calm]

I am rather surprised we have anyone here with connections to the families and others involved.  Thank you all for sharing.  

Edited February 24, 2022 by Calm

[sunstoned]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am rather surprised we have anyone here with connections to the families and others involved.  Thank you all for sharing.  

Payson was a small town in those days😀

[Calm]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Payson was a small town in those days😀

I remember driving through it.  Didn’t take that long.

[Bob Crockett]

10 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

The "brief glimpse" includes temple content, so... (a still image is at the link also).

Huh.  I have never heard of the Lafferty brothers being described as "esteemed."

Thanks,

-Smac

They were local Highland politicians.  

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am rather surprised we have anyone here with connections to the families and others involved.  Thank you all for sharing.  

The murders took place on July 24, 1984 in a duplex in American Fork, Utah.  Per this article, the victim's husband discovered the bodies at about 8:00 p.m. when he returned home from work, and he immediately called the police.

I looked up the address of the duplex and found that it is located a little more than a mile southwest of the house I was living in with my parents at the time.  I have a recollection of being on our west-facting patio that evening and noticing flashing police lights a ways away, to the southwest, as the sun was going down.  My recollection is that a day or two later my dad told me that a murder had taken place that night, and all the flashing lights were from police cars.  Kind of a grim thing to remember.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

I don’t have any memory of it.  Sleep deprivation was going on, only I didn’t know it.  It appears to have interfered with my memory.  Things got better after a few years.  We would have been a BYU Wymount Terrace at the time.

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Big difference between “if” and “rather than.”

I am not sure I get your point.

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

I am rather surprised we have anyone here with connections to the families and others involved.  Thank you all for sharing.  

Years ago my husband worked with Ron on a job site he was assigned to as an iron worker. He said Ron would bring his BoM with him every day and read at lunch. 

The other connection is my husband's niece's husband's brother's wife had an obsession with Dan in prison and become years long friends and they wrote letters back and forth, possibly about leaving this earth and the apocalypse I believe. Her and her husband would visit Dan in prison and Dan believed himself to be the prophet Elijah. She had a drug problem as well and had mental issues. They are the family that took their lives in 2014, sadly and lived in Springville. This niece's husband came from a polygamist family and joined the church later on. He spent some time growing up in the Colorado city area. So maybe a connection there.

[ttribe]

16 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Then why mention it? A gentler and subtler “Protocols” would be only slightly less vile. I guess I don’t understand the hyperbole. 

Because every slight, real or perceived, must be defended against with extreme prejudice.

[jkwilliams]

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Coincidentally, that's the exact question that I've seen a number of faithful members ask regarding some of Black's creative choices.

I suppose one could likewise ask, why make a television series based on a book riddled with historical and other errors as well as slanderous, inflammatory misrepresentations?

Oh, so it’s the source material, not Mr. Black, that is the issue. I haven’t read that book, but again, your reaction seems more strident than most. 

But what do I know? Everyone around here knows I’m a habitual calumniator. 

[smac97]

On 2/24/2022 at 9:46 AM, jkwilliams said:

Quote

Coincidentally, that's the exact question that I've seen a number of faithful members ask regarding some of Black's creative choices.

I suppose one could likewise ask, why make a television series based on a book riddled with historical and other errors as well as slanderous, inflammatory misrepresentations?

Oh, so it’s the source material, not Mr. Black, that is the issue.

Let us here embrace the healing power of the word "and" (instead of "not").

Daniel Peterson has made some observations:

Quote

The screenplay for this upcoming miniseries version of Under the Banner of Heaven was written by the ex-Latter-day Saint LGBT activist Dustin Lance Black, who won an Oscar for Best Original Screenplay for the 2008 movie Milk, about the gay rights activist and San Francisco politician Harvey Milk, and who worked as a writer, then as an executive story editor, and finally as a co-producer on Big Love.  Black also narrated the documentary film 8: The Mormon Proposition, which was co-directed by the former-Latter-day Saint gay activist Reed Cowan. 

I think it's reasonable to look at Black's oeuvre (particularly the "8" documentary) and reasonably surmise his past treatment of the Church will be reflected in the adaptation here.

Quote

Under the Banner of Heaven will star the Anglo-American actor Andrew Garfield, who also figures as its producer.  Previously, he’s played Spiderman/Peter Parker and — I really, really liked him in these roles — Desmond Doss in Hacksaw Ridge and Rodrigues in Silence.  Given his self-description as an agnostic pantheist and the fact that he’s starred in productions of Angels in America both in London and on Broadway — for which he won multiple awards, including a Tony, and an Olivier nomination — I’m not counting on Mr. Garfield, as its producer, to be a voice of respect and restraint with regard to the portrayal of Latter-day Saints and Latter-day Saint history in Under the Banner of Heaven.

We'll see, I suppose.

Quote

That the miniseries will at least touch upon mainstream Latter-day Saint history, as well as upon the horrific story of religious fanaticism and murder that is at its heart, is shown by the fact that the cast list for it includes actors portraying Joseph Smith, Emma Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and, yes, of course, almost inevitably, Porter Rockwell.  And the official teaser for Under the Banner of Heaven leads me to believe that it will, at least passingly, touch upon matters pertaining to the temple.

How will Joseph, Emma, Brigham, etc. be depicted in this adaptation?  Again, we can look at Black's past depictions of the Church and make a reasonably informed guess.

The inclusion of "matters pertaining to the temple" is, for me, a pretty clear indication that the depiction of us will not be one borne of respect and tact.

DCP closes with some good advice:

Quote

It will be easy for us to hunker down for this.  We might regard it, and not without justice, as simply one more wearisome example of elite cultural contempt — or, at least, of elite pop-cultural contempt — for us.  It will almost certainly be that.  (A small handful of embittered former Latter-day Saints are already squealing with giddy delight.)  Or we might react angrily, defensively.  But that would probably be foolish and almost certainly useless.  Back in the early twentieth century, in fact, when that Danish silent film Mormonens Offer [A Victim of the Mormons] appeared, misguided Latter-day Saint efforts to have it banned (as films in those early days sometimes were) actually helped to foster its success.  I think that the official response of the Church to the Book of Mormon musical (e.g., “You’ve seen the play, now read the book!”) was vastly better.

I don’t know how much of a splash Under the Banner of Heaven will make.  But it seems to me to offer a golden opportunity.  It may pique the interest of people who think of us, otherwise, as a pretty bland bunch with an extra book and, at one time, an extra wife or two.  To the extent that it provokes curiosity and discussion, that’s a good thing that we can use to the benefit of the Kingdom.  If people begin to wonder about us (e.g., “Does my Mormon neighbor really believe that?”  “Is my Latter-day Saint dentist really a dangerous religious zealot?”  “My LDS co-worker’s church does what?”), I’m not really going to complain.  If there are conversations around the office water cooler, that’s not necessarily a bad thing.  We should be prepared, and we should act.

It was Winston Churchill — not the Democratic activist, former chief of staff in Barack Obama’s White House, recent Chicago mayor, and current ambassador to Japan, Rahm Emanuel, to whom it is often misattributed — who famously said, “Never let a good crisis go to waste.”  This miniseries may not constitute a “crisis,” but it certainly shouldn’t be allowed to go unutilized.

Yep.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 25, 2022 by smac97

[ttribe]

What's with DCP's focus on the "gay activist" history of some of those involved? Pretty sure that has nothing to do with the story.

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, ttribe said:

What's with DCP's focus on the "gay activist" history of some of those involved? Pretty sure that has nothing to do with the story.

Sure seems to have a lot to do with their antipathy toward the Church, though.

He goes on to "focus" on Andrew Garfield's anticipated posture:

Quote

Given his self-description as an agnostic pantheist and the fact that he’s starred in productions of Angels in America both in London and on Broadway — for which he won multiple awards, including a Tony, and an Olivier nomination — I’m not counting on Mr. Garfield, as its producer, to be a voice of respect and restraint with regard to the portrayal of Latter-day Saints and Latter-day Saint history in Under the Banner of Heaven.

He also "focuses" on the cast list:

Quote

That the miniseries will at least touch upon mainstream Latter-day Saint history, as well as upon the horrific story of religious fanaticism and murder that is at its heart, is shown by the fact that the cast list for it includes actors portraying Joseph Smith, Emma Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and, yes, of course, almost inevitably, Porter Rockwell. 

He also "focuses" on the content of the trailer:

Quote

And the official teaser for Under the Banner of Heaven leads me to believe that it will, at least passingly, touch upon matters pertaining to the temple.

From these things he concludes in part:

Quote

It will be easy for us to hunker down for this.  We might regard it, and not without justice, as simply one more wearisome example of elite cultural contempt — or, at least, of elite pop-cultural contempt — for us.  It will almost certainly be that.  

In other words, what you call "focus" I see as "context" for his preliminary assessment of what we will likely encounter when the miniseries comes out.

Thanks,

-Smac

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, smac97 said:

Sure seems to have a lot to do with their antipathy toward the Church, though.

He goes on to "focus" on Andrew Garfield's anticipated posture:

He also "focuses" on the cast list:

He also "focuses" on the content of the trailer:

From these things he concludes in part:

In other words, what you call "focus" I see as "context" for his preliminary assessment of what we will likely encounter when the miniseries comes out.

Thanks,

-Smac

I'll take "Well Poisoning" for $500, Alex.

[smac97]

3 hours ago, ttribe said:

I'll take "Well Poisoning" for $500, Alex.

Well, let's see:

Quote

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy (a type of ad hominem argument) in which a person attempts to place an opponent in a position from which he or she is unable to reply.

What is it about DCP's comments that situate Black and Cowan so that they are "unable to reply"?

Quote

Examples and Observations

"Another technique by which the personality of a speaker is sometimes discredited is called poisoning the well. An enemy, when he poisons a well, ruins the water; no matter how good or how pure the water was, it is now tainted and hence unusable. When an opponent uses this technique, he casts such aspersions on a person that the person cannot possibly recover and defend himself without making matters much worse.

CITY COUNCILMAN: The Mayor's a very good talker. Yes, talk he can do . . . and do very well. But when it comes time for action, that's a different matter.

How can the mayor respond? If he remains silent, he runs the risk of appearing to accept the councilman's criticisms. But if he stands up and defends himself, then he is talking; and the more he talks, the more he appears to be confirming the accusations. The well has been poisoned, and the mayor is in a difficult position." (Robert J. Gula, Nonsense. Axios, 2007)

Could you elaborate on how DCP has poisoned the well relative to Black and Cowan?  I'm just not seeing it.

Are you claiming that characterizing them as "gay activists" is per se poisoning the well?  If so, could you elaborate on that?  

Wikipedia: "Dustin Lance Black (born June 10, 1974) is an American screenwriter, director, film and television producer, and LGBT rights activist."

The New Yorker: " Dustin Lance Black, the Screenwriter Behind 'Milk' and 'When We Rise,' on Coming Out As a Gay Activist."

The Sentinel-Tribune:

Quote

BGSU welcomes filmmaker, social activist Dustin Lance Black as part of 2022 Creative Minds Series

...

 

Black is an Academy Award-winning filmmaker, writer and social activist. He won the Oscar and two Writers Guild of America awards for “Milk,” the biopic of activist Harvey Milk starring Sean Penn and in 2018 received the Valentine Davies Award from the WGA for his body of work.

 

In 2017, Black created, produced and directed the ABC mini-series “When We Rise,” which chronicled the true stories of the personal and political struggles, setbacks and triumphs of activists who pioneered the modern LGBTQ+ rights movement. Black merged his creative and civil rights work in 2012 with “8,” a play based on the Federal Proposition 8 trial.

The Advocate:

Quote

Academy Award-winning screenwriter Dustin Lance Black (Milk, Pedro, 8, When We Rise) has been watching the news lately with righteous anger.

The trailblazing activist, who welcomed a son last year with husband Tom Daley, recently sat down for our new virtual series Inside with The Advocate (watch the video above).
...
 

Black was deeply engaged in the court fight against California’s anti-marriage equality Proposition 8. In October 2009, he delivered a speech in front of the Capitol to nearly 200,000 queer rights activists. Currently, he is adapting an FX miniseries of Jon Krakauer’s nonfiction book Under the Banner of Heaven, about a double murder in a Mormon fundamentalist community as well as a documentary for Live Nation on the queer roots of rock and roll.

“History moves slowly,” he explains. “But it’s not our jobs as activists to pace ourselves. What our job is as activists is to demand justice, to demand equality, and to demand all of it — and right now. "

Stomp Out Bullying.org:

Quote

Dustin Lance Black is a screenwriter, director, film and television producer and LGBT rights activist. He has won a Writers Guild of America Award and an Academy Award for the 2008 film Milk.

Dustin created the ABC mini-series When We Rise based on the memoirs of LGBT activist Cleve Jones. 

Dustin Lance Black:

Quote

DLB: I toyed with the idea for a long time. After Milk was over, I started to think about other stories that need to be told, and I’m doing other LGBT-themed history projects, but I always wondered, "Was there something bigger, and how would I go about doing that?" As I met people – activists – along the way, I would sort of catalog their names in my head in case I ever got the chance to do something like this, and it was ABC saying they would actually pay for a year of research to really figure out who to depict that set it in motion.

Black's notoriety is based heavily on his activism.  For those who don't know anything about him, noting that activism would seem akin to, when discussing Schindler's List, noting Steven Spielberg's status as a filmmaker and his being Jewish.  

Did DCP "poison the well" by noting Garfield's religious views and involvement with other treatments of the Church (Angels in America)?  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 25, 2022 by smac97

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Well, let's see:

What is it about DCP's comments that situate Black and Cowan so that they are "unable to reply"?

Could you elaborate on how DCP has poisoned the well relative to Black and Cowan?  I'm just not seeing it.

Are you claiming that characterizing them as "gay activists" is per se poisoning the well?  If so, could you elaborate on that?  

Wikipedia: "Dustin Lance Black (born June 10, 1974) is an American screenwriter, director, film and television producer, and LGBT rights activist."

The New Yorker: " Dustin Lance Black, the Screenwriter Behind 'Milk' and 'When We Rise,' on Coming Out As a Gay Activist."

The Sentinel-Tribune:

The Advocate:

Stomp Out Bullying.org:

Dustin Lance Black:

Black's notoriety is based heavily on his activism.  For those who don't know anything about him, noting that activism would seem akin to, when discussing noting Steven Spielberg's making of Schindler's List, noting his status as a filmmaker and his being Jewish.  

Did DCP "poison the well" by noting Garfield's religious views and involvement with other treatments of the Church (Angels in America)?  

Thanks,

-Smac

Yeah, I'm not buying your naivete act.

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Yeah, I'm not buying your naivete act.

I'm not acting.  And I'm not exhibiting naivete.  But I won't push you to answer.

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

Turning Under the Banner of Heaven into a show?  Well, surely they'll give the same historically accurate treatment of things that we got in September Dawn.  Such a fun movie, where the saints were always shown in black with camera angles from the waist up to properly portray our nefarious nature.  And that fun montage with the Fancher party, looking straight out of Little House on the Prarie, praying joyously for their Mormon neighbors, while evil Brigham on the dinner throne surrounded by his somber wives, were offering their prayer demanding God's curses fall upon their enemies. 

You get 'em, Brigham!

I can hardly wait.

 

Heh: According to IMDB, September Dawn had an estimated $11,000,000 budget, and made all of $1,000,000 worldwide.  I can hardly wait!

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[LoudmouthMormon]

Oh man - the memories.  Probably the greatest contribution to LDS apologetics (and this board), was when nationwide AM talk radio host Hugh Hewitt was interviewing the star John Voigt about September Dawn.  I stayed on hold for 90 minutes to be the first caller Hugh took.  I mentioned the phrase "I am the voice of God, and anyone who doesn't like it will be hewn down", featured in the trailer.  I pointed out that an active discussion forum where the faithful and critical come to argue had discussed the movie quite passionately, but neither critic nor faithful could actually source that quote, and I asked Voigt for a reference.  There was some stuttering bluster about how everything had been well researched, and Hugh promised to link the sources used to his website, which he never did.

 

Oh oh oh!  And another random memory: A co-worker approached me ten or more years ago, saying that her church group had spent an evening learning all about my faith and it's members.  They had gathered and watched Napoleon Dynamite.  I was mostly successful at restraining my laughter, mentioning that about the only thing I recognized from that show as associated with my faith, was the shelving at the goodwill where Napoleon found his how-to-dance vhs tape.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 2/23/2022 at 2:30 PM, smac97 said:

Here:

The "brief glimpse" includes temple content, so... (a still image is at the link also).

Huh.  I have never heard of the Lafferty brothers being described as "esteemed."

Thanks,

-Smac

In the back of my mind, I’ve been wondering for years what became of this project, ever since it was announced that Ron Howard would be ramrodding it. Maybe I’m missing something, but hasn’t it been considerably scaled back from what was initially contemplated? Wasn’t it supposed to be a major theatrical release on the order of “The DaVinci Code”?

Maybe in our modern age, having a mini-series on a streaming service is just as big a thing. Somebody who is better acquainted than I with the show-biz industry would have to say for sure, I suppose. 
 

Edited February 27, 2022 by Scott Lloyd