Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.

[InCognitus]

29 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Would you mind clarifying for me what you mean by  "a measure of His glory . . . is present everywhere"? Are you referring to the glory of the Father or the Son? What glory does either have that is present everywhere since neither is a spirit but a human? I am not debating or challenging, just trying to understand. Thanks.

To provide a reference to what CV75 says above, I think he means like what is said in Doctrine and Covenants section 88:4-13 and 41:

Quote

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;  5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son—  6 He that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;  7 Which truth shineth.  This is the light of Christ.  As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.  8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;  9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;  10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.   11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;   12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space--   13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

 41 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

It is by these means the we might consider him to be "omnipresent".  His power and influence is everywhere.

[Teancum]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The church has policies against that.

Testimonies from children are fine, but not if they are "put on the stand" and someone whispers in their ear etc. or if they are reciting something previously memorized.   Not to mention it is absurd- little children could not possibly understand what they are saying on such issues.

Has the church put a stop to this. It has been a few years since I attended a testimony meeting but it was alive and well back then.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Their glory is often compared (in our lesson materials) to rays of sunlight, except the glory is spiritual and universal, which could entail a physical manifestation in some instances. The Father and the Son can be in one locale and their glory felt everywhere, according to the measure They allow. Forms of glory might be evident in grace, spiritual gifts, the light of Christ, the Spirit, etc.. In some measure, what we receive is what we are willing to receive, or to give God or to others (e.g. Mark 4:24). 

Just a comment . . . this sounds a lot like the orthodox (as opposed to heterodox) view of the Godhead. It sure sounds like God as a spiritual being as opposed to a glorified human. I really like the "forms of glory" as you define them. There is nothing there that any Christian would disagree with. In the FWIW department I have never heard anyone LDS say "The Father and the Son can be in one locale and their glory felt everywhere." That is  as orthodox a statement as I have ever heard. Thanks so much.

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

To provide a reference to what CV75 says above, I think he means like what is said in Doctrine and Covenants section 88:4-13 and 41:

It is by these means the we might consider him to be "omnipresent".  His power and influence is everywhere.

Then He is much more than a glorified human limited by body, time, and space. Right? Sounds like a spiritual being which is another word for a spirit. Christ on the mount of transfiguration was a glorified human being. This sounds much more like a glorified spirit who can cause Himself to be seen as a human if He chooses. That is no different from the orthodox concept of God the Father as a glorified spirit. Is there somewhere in the LDS theosis that God the Father ceases being a human and became a spirit?

[Navidad]

44 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Has the church put a stop to this. It has been a few years since I attended a testimony meeting but it was alive and well back then.

I am glad to hear you all say what you are saying. My wife and I have really been disturbed by what in some cases we have seen amount to coercion of a shy sub 5 year old who sobs in fear from the stand. No exaggeration.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The point is, that once one knows and can see with their own eyes the choice they are making to NOT want the necessary "training" that enables EVERYONE TO BECOME LIKE GOD, those who still do not want that path WILL NOT accept the temple work which will be done for them, and so they voluntarily limit their own progression 

They will see the alternative "face to face" and decide NOT to go forward.

They will be the happiest as as wise as they want to be, and stop there

THAT will be their personal heaven which they will knowingly accept for themselves 

Of course this discussion is limited by human language and prejudice, but the best we can now imagine how it works.

It's not that "we have to become Mormon to advance" it will be an obvious choice that virtually all will see, plain as day.

NO ONE else has this Doctrine and so we by default become the ONLY church that teaches it, by DEFINITION.  We are not a "denomination" we are the ONLY one that teaches what we believe is the full story, all others are vague about heaven

That's the best I can explain it. Period.

You said:

"I cannot get my head around how eternity in the absence of the Godhead is heaven of any kind? "

Good then and quit kicking!

You are already one of us, you just don't know it, and probably won't until you get to the other side!

 

Mark: I want to comment very much on your post. Maybe later today I can. I now have to go pick up my car with a new radiator and bumper so I can take my son the doctor in New Mexico tomorrow. I can't give your post the response it deserves right now. Thanks so much for posting it. Please don't think I am ignoring it or not desirous of replying. I need to prepare him for the trip since we had such a challenge last week. Take care.

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Has the church put a stop to this. It has been a few years since I attended a testimony meeting but it was alive and well back then.

I can only think of three in the past quite-a-few years. At the time aged 9-11. All unassisted. Only reason I can remember them specifically is because I don't see kids getting up and doing it.

[CV75]

38 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Just a comment . . . this sounds a lot like the orthodox (as opposed to heterodox) view of the Godhead. It sure sounds like God as a spiritual being as opposed to a glorified human. I really like the "forms of glory" as you define them. There is nothing there that any Christian would disagree with. In the FWIW department I have never heard anyone LDS say "The Father and the Son can be in one locale and their glory felt everywhere." That is  as orthodox a statement as I have ever heard. Thanks so much.

I’m surprised my statement sounds unique for members of my Church. I suppose semantics plays a role here, too. I am happy to be corrected if my understanding isn’t quite right.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Has the church put a stop to this. It has been a few years since I attended a testimony meeting but it was alive and well back then.

We usually have one or two primary aged kids go up and bear their testimonies, but alone, without parents.

[mfbukowski]

22 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Mark: I want to comment very much on your post. Maybe later today I can. I now have to go pick up my car with a new radiator and bumper so I can take my son the doctor in New Mexico tomorrow. I can't give your post the response it deserves right now. Thanks so much for posting it. Please don't think I am ignoring it or not desirous of replying. I need to prepare him for the trip since we had such a challenge last week. Take care.

No problem.  If you want to be with Father forever, it's a done deal. Follow your heart WHEREVER it leads, follow that spirit with all you heart, and you will get there.

We all have different paths but eventually we all end up on the same one, just by following our hearts (The Holy Ghost)

You're cooked, you just don't know it yet!!  You are just the way I was, but coming from a different paradigm 

 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Has the church put a stop to this. It has been a few years since I attended a testimony meeting but it was alive and well back then.

It's officially policy to NOT allow it, but people are people.

We have LITTLE kids get up and say, all by themselves, "I love Jesus. I love my mommy and daddy. Name of Jesus AMEN. " and run back to their seats.

Cutest thing in the world!

Older ones get more regular, it's beautiful to see them grow in the gospel!

[smac97]

Jana Riess has weighed in: Mormon leader’s apology for racist remarks does not go far enough

I honestly hardly read Jana's column, as I generally don't think much of her assessment of things pertaining to the Church.  The last article of hers I read was her quasi-eulogy of Tom Kimball.  

I went back and re-read that article and compared her treatment of Kimball to her treatment of Wilcox.  The difference is . . . noteworthy, IMO. 

Thanks,

-Smac

[BlueDreams]

56 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Then He is much more than a glorified human limited by body, time, and space. Right? Sounds like a spiritual being which is another word for a spirit. Christ on the mount of transfiguration was a glorified human being. This sounds much more like a glorified spirit who can cause Himself to be seen as a human if He chooses. That is no different from the orthodox concept of God the Father as a glorified spirit. Is there somewhere in the LDS theosis that God the Father ceases being a human and became a spirit?

No. LDS kinda side step the whole spirit v physical thing and say all things including spirits are a form of matter. In the POGP it describes us entering different estates when we come to earth. D&C 93 notes the relationship between spirit and element like this:

“And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.
35 The elements are the tabernacle of God; yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples; and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple.
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.”

D&C also explicitly says HF and Jesus have physical bodies. So God is more like a perfect union between element and spirit. Kinda like the sun is literally a physical body but also something that eminates light and radiation through the entires solar system.
 

with luv, 

BD 

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

 I cannot get my head around how eternity in the absence of the Godhead is heaven of any kind? What if anything, am I getting wrong? Thanks.

People in the Telestial Kingdom won't experience an absence of the Godhead. According to D&C 76:86-87, 'These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial'. Like the Father and the Son, the Holy Ghost is fully part of the Godhead, and the kingdoms all lie along a continuum of God's glory.

Also see verses 89-90: 'And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it'.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Would you mind clarifying for me what you mean by  "a measure of His glory . . . is present everywhere"? Are you referring to the glory of the Father or the Son?

I don't understand your second question here. I don't see any divisions in the glory of God. The glory of the Father is the glory of the Son.

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

In the FWIW department I have never heard anyone LDS say "The Father and the Son can be in one locale and their glory felt everywhere."

I have heard this repeatedly throughout my time as a Church member. FWIW.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

We usually have one or two primary aged kids go up and bear their testimonies, but alone, without parents.

Similar to here. Children rarely share their testimonies in sacrament meeting, but when they do, they do so all by themselves, with solid content clearly generated through personal experience.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Then He is much more than a glorified human limited by body, time, and space. Right? Sounds like a spiritual being which is another word for a spirit. Christ on the mount of transfiguration was a glorified human being. This sounds much more like a glorified spirit who can cause Himself to be seen as a human if He chooses. That is no different from the orthodox concept of God the Father as a glorified spirit. Is there somewhere in the LDS theosis that God the Father ceases being a human and became a spirit?

A human being has a human spirit connected with element fashioned into a human body. We believe that God is a glorified person, that is, His spirit and element are inseparably connected, quickened by a fulness of celestial glory.

“Spiritual being” is not necessarily another term for “spirt being.” “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Corinthians 15: 53-54). Death cannot be swallowed up if only our spirits remain after our bodies die, because our spirits are and always have been, and always will be, immortal, no matter how spiritually alive or dead we may be. Death is swallowed up in Christ when He makes us live, spiritually through the abundant life (John 10:10) and bringing us back to physical life through the resurrection (John 5:28-29; Matthew 27:53).

God cannot be a living God only by virtue of His perfect living spirit alone; He perfectly conquered bodily death also.

Edited February 16, 2022 by CV75

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Similar to here. Children rarely share their testimonies in sacrament meeting, but when they do, they do so all by themselves, with solid content clearly generated through personal experience.

If they go up with anyone in my wards, it is an older sibling (Primary age) and they take turns giving it themselves.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, the narrator said:

Well, what is the bishop president of?

An infantilized priesthood?

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

We usually have one or two primary aged kids go up and bear their testimonies, but alone, without parents.

Is that a good thing?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Jana Riess has weighed in: Mormon leader’s apology for racist remarks does not go far enough

I honestly hardly read Jana's column, as I generally don't think much of her assessment of things pertaining to the Church.  The last article of hers I read was her quasi-eulogy of Tom Kimball.  

I went back and re-read that article and compared her treatment of Kimball to her treatment of Wilcox.  The difference is . . . noteworthy, IMO. 

Thanks,

-Smac

I think Jana was spot on.  She summed it up Wilcox's cringeworthy behavior very accurately.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Is that a good thing?

If a child wants to go up and talk about their beliefs, and they do so of their own free will, then yes, I think it's a good thing.  

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I think Jana was spot on.  She summed it up Wilcox's cringeworthy behavior very accurately.

She summed up her opinion on it, which she has a right to do and a platform to do it on.  Like all opinions, some will agree with her and some won't.

[kimpearson]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Would you mind clarifying for me what you mean by  "a measure of His glory . . . is present everywhere"? Are you referring to the glory of the Father or the Son? What glory does either have that is present everywhere since neither is a spirit but a human? I am not debating or challenging, just trying to understand. Thanks.

 

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Just a comment . . . this sounds a lot like the orthodox (as opposed to heterodox) view of the Godhead. It sure sounds like God as a spiritual being as opposed to a glorified human. I really like the "forms of glory" as you define them. There is nothing there that any Christian would disagree with. In the FWIW department I have never heard anyone LDS say "The Father and the Son can be in one locale and their glory felt everywhere." That is  as orthodox a statement as I have ever heard. Thanks so much.

 

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Then He is much more than a glorified human limited by body, time, and space. Right? Sounds like a spiritual being which is another word for a spirit. Christ on the mount of transfiguration was a glorified human being. This sounds much more like a glorified spirit who can cause Himself to be seen as a human if He chooses. That is no different from the orthodox concept of God the Father as a glorified spirit. Is there somewhere in the LDS theosis that God the Father ceases being a human and became a spirit?

Everyone is trying to answer your question in detail based on a couple of sections of the Doctrine & Covenants.  There is no official doctrine about the details of the eternities, glory of God. complete nature of God and how the folks in the different degrees function with one another.  Joseph Smith's views of these details evolved and developed over time.  At the time of his death, he was just starting to talk publicly about more details of just what the eternities were like.  Many early leaders had strong opinions and gave detailed explanations but many of those contradicted with each other.  Brigham Young taught heavily and it was reportedly part of the early temple ceremonies that Adam came from another world.  Current leaders disavow those teachings.  Much of what is shared above comes from the thinking of various church leaders but it is not official doctrine.  We LDS struggle with comprehending the whole picture just like everyone else.  We believe we have a few more details such as God the Father and Jesus Christ having physical bodies while the Holy Ghost is a being of spirit.  We then say the Father and the Son don't have blood but what does that mean?  You will hear speculations about a different fluid in their bodies but it is just speculation.  The thing I cling to is our LDS belief that we each have existed forever just like God and that God loved us so much that He took on the role of father to us.  He created spirit bodies for us (what form we were in prior is unclear) and created a world and plan where we could become as much like Him as we wanted even to the point of becoming just like him (whatever that means in detail).  In other words there is a direct parental connection between each human being and God.  That will never change and that is why each of us are so precious to both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.  Broadly, that is not much different than most christen religions but its those details that we LDS hold up as evidence of the truth and authority of the Church.

[Calm]

We had a young lady, maybe 7 when she started.  She always gave quite good messages with her testimony.  Looked forward to her sharing.  
 

The ones that go up on their own tend to take it seriously and do more than the rote stuff in my wards.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Calm

[Olmec Donald]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

We usually have one or two primary aged kids go up and bear their testimonies, but alone, without parents.

 

17 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Is that a good thing?

 

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If a child wants to go up and talk about their beliefs, and they do so of their own free will, then yes, I think it's a good thing.  

When my brother was a kid he somehow got the idea that testimony meeting was an open-mic invitation to tell stories.

Two testimony meetings in a row he got up and told the story of Noah and the Whale.  In case you're not familiar with, it goes a lot like Noah and the Ark except that at the end a giant whale swallows the Ark.

Apparently the bishopric was not as amused as I was, because Mom got told to not let him get up there anymore.