Rivers Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 14 minutes ago, kimpearson said: Official LDS doctrine is that no other churches have priesthood authority and the LDS church is the only church where Jesus Christ organized it through a prophet, Joseph Smith, and Jesus stands at the head of the Church. That is why it is called the Church of Jesus Christ. All other churches are considered organized and headed by men/women with no direct priesthood authority that Jesus Christ recognizes as having authority to bind in heaven. I understand this is the doctrine of the Church. But I haven’t been able to fully wrap my head around why proper priesthood authority is so darn important.
kimpearson Posted February 16, 2022 Author Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Rivers said: I understand this is the doctrine of the Church. But I haven’t been able to fully wrap my head around why proper priesthood authority is so darn important. So that ordinances performed on earth are valid in heaven. The way we get around condemning everyone else is that we believe the proper priesthood authority can be and will be exercised for everyone in the temple if they accept that work. I will confess that I think there are some holes in our full understanding of this. Edited February 16, 2022 by kimpearson 1
Bernard Gui Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 16 hours ago, Tacenda said: I second this! How do you know what Bro Wilcox feels?
Tacenda Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: How do you know what Bro Wilcox feels? He never apologizes for the many areas in the talk that were so offensive?
CV75 Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Navidad said: Regarding the original content of this thread. We haven't talked too much in the 34 pages about his comments that non-LDS Christians simply play church. Does anyone here think he will ever apologize for that? Should he? Does it accurately portray the position of the church about non-LDS Christians? What is the no kidding real doctrinal position of the church when it comes to the rest of the Christian world? Did Brad Wilcox simply have the courage to state it when so many others seem to be trying to just get along? I found this portion of his talk especially offensive. Will this portion of his talk simply be ignored because non-members are well . . . simply non-members? Thanks for your input. I don't know if he will apologize publicly, maybe privately to his friends he offended. He may use this experience to reevaluate how he feels, understands and expresses himself on this topic. In general, I'm not sure if we can demand that anyone apologize (as in "they should apologize"). But, I think we can ask that he learn from the experience and do better going forward. That has been the feedback he's gotten (as opposed to "Attaboy!"). The Church may have a guidance for leaders on preaching style, and I'm pretty sure there is some guidance for members in the Church Handbook with regards to sacrament meeting talks and the like. I will take a look into that.* I think the basic doctrinal point he was making is that the priesthood keys were restored and remained with Joseph Smith's successors. There are many palatable ways of teaching this, and the teacher should be accompanied by the Spirit. * ETA: "10. Gospel messages and congregational singing or other music. "Messages and music should be consistent with the sacred nature of the sacrament. For information about selecting speakers, see 29.2.1.4. For information about musical selections in sacrament meeting, see 19.3.2. “29.2.1.4 …Speakers bear testimony of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel using the scriptures (see Doctrine and Covenants 42:12; 52:9). Messages should build faith and be consistent with the sacred nature of the sacrament.” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/29-meetings-in-the-church?lang=eng&id=title_number62-p35#title_number62 Edited February 16, 2022 by CV75
Navidad Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Angry? I am not angry, and you still use emotional, manipulative tactics to avoid the central point of disagreement You made a false accusation, implying that we believe that all will not be judged in mercy, but according to whether or not people were or were not LDS, and you use emotional arguments to try to refute what it appears you THINK we believe, yet we never HAVE believed. The whole reason we build temples and do genealogy is to teach those who have already passed, and that virtually all who hear the message will accept it, when it's truth is demonstrated by all that is obvious in the spirit world all around them You still have not addressed that simple point, but want to discuss why I am supposedly angry. When history repeats itself inevitably you will threaten to leave the board because you are so persecuted by we LDS who sin by practicing "rankism". It's been the same for 5 years. For five years people tell you why you are wrong about that, and you are still ignoring what is said, and respond by changing the subject to how you are being persecuted and how everyone in your ward loves you. Wonderful, I am genuinely happy about that! LDS folks flip out when they think one is being "mean" to an "investigator" by challenging their views. You just NEVER do it. But by now, I don't think that is the case here. Ok. If by stating what I believe, I implied that I don't think you believe it, then I am truly unaware of that. That is my blind spot. I will work on that. I cannot keep you from interpreting and predicting and reacting in any way you see fit. I don't intend to leave the forum but to continue on. Let me state plainly and clearly my perspectives and beliefs, then you won't have to work so hard at interpreting and predicting what I am about. To the best of my limited ability to self-examine I believe I am not implying anything about any others' beliefs about the same issues, other than perhaps an a priori assumption that many will disagree with what I am saying. I still believe I have a right to say it, do I not? 1. I do believe that rankism is a genuine problem within humanity. I do believe rankism is a problem, perhaps thee problem leading to religious conflict. I believe that many faith groups, including mine and yours practice different forms of rankism when evaluating their own faiths against that of others. If I were on a Mennonite forum I would state that about Mennonites, I would not mention anything about the LDS. However, I am on a Mormon-centric forum so I state what I think about how Mormons practice rankism. I think that is a genuine issue and problem in religion as conflict studies. That is an area in which I have great interest, so yes I talk about it. If it appears I am singling out the LDS faith, that is because this is an LDS-centric forum. I present my perspectives on the issue in the interest of hearing what you have to say about it. I expect push back, but hopefully not of a personal nature. 2. I do believe that there will be no denominations in the spirit world or any heaven as you or I understand it. I do not believe that any person in the Godhead created or established any human denomination, sect, or group. 3. I heartily believe that Jesus Christ is the way the Truth and the life and that no one gains access to the Father but by Him (on Judgment Day). I do not believe that any church, not yours or mine has the exclusive, sole, or better truth than another in this mortal life. We must approach our truths with humility and uncertainty because we have no ability to see beyond the veil. 4. I am not an "investigator" of the LDS church in the typical use of that word. I have said that since my very first post five years ago. No need to treat me like you would an investigator. In fact I would prefer not to be treated as such because it leads to incorrect assumptions. I am very interested in understanding Mormonism in all of its manifestations. That is why I drive down to LeBaron Colony and chat with them as well. I have to go to the bank now. So I have to say no more. I hope to be around this forum for a while. Yes, sometimes it causes me pain, but that does not make me a victim. I do not believe I am a victim here. Perhaps that should be number 5. Gotta run. Edited February 16, 2022 by Navidad 1
Nofear Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 13 hours ago, Navidad said: Regarding the original content of this thread. We haven't talked too much in the 34 pages about his comments that non-LDS Christians simply play church. Does anyone here think he will ever apologize for that? Should he? Does it accurately portray the position of the church about non-LDS Christians? What is the no kidding real doctrinal position of the church when it comes to the rest of the Christian world? Did Brad Wilcox simply have the courage to state it when so many others seem to be trying to just get along? I found this portion of his talk especially offensive. Will this portion of his talk simply be ignored because non-members are well . . . simply non-members? Thanks for your input. To be fair, the idea of playing Church is something Hugh Nibley criticized even among Latter-day Saints. "Without that power [of the Spirit] we have nothing, as we clearly see when we try to put on our own show, such as Church films of various kinds, including much sentimental kitsch with professional, non-LDS actors waxing emotional about situations that they have never experienced. Illustrations in study manuals, tear-jerking stories, photographs of sacred ordinances suffused with frosted light to make them spiritual-do we need all this rhetorical and theatrical Hollywood and Disneyland if we have the real thing? The most impressive temple sessions I have attended have been at Manti, where elderly farm people put on a far more intelligent display than the slick professionals. Do we take the real thing seriously enough?" 4
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: After suffering for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial Yes, agree, I thought I said that, apparently a misunderstanding. The telestial IS a Kingdom of glory, so maybe we were talking past each other. Temporary hell, then glory. That's unique Except for virtually no one in outer darkness. It's too hard to qualify for! To me, that is about as close as it gets to universal "salvation". Edited February 16, 2022 by mfbukowski 2
the narrator Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 On 2/10/2022 at 3:43 PM, Robert F. Smith said: We weren't talking about the lesser priesthood. Well, what is the bishop president of?
MiserereNobis Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 43 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Temporary hell, then glory. That's unique Purgatory, then heaven 4
Navidad Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 14 hours ago, rongo said: Are cargo cults "playing" at worship? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/1959-cargo-cults-melanesia/ What if their belief is sincere? Improvised airstrips, barracks, offices, coconut-bamboo-tin-can-equipment, passing ritual papers back and forth in the makeshift offices, military drill, ritual USA painted on their chests, etc. All in the belief that the messianic John Frum will return and give them the white man's cargo. Is their belief and ritual on a par with Christianity? Are they playing at worship, or is it real worship in its own right? I have never heard of a cargo cult. I know nothing about them, therefore I cannot comment anything about them.
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said: Purgatory, then heaven Unless your baptism was botched! 🤣 = ROLF! 1
Calm Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Unless your baptism was botched! Likely Baptism by desire would apply in those cases given God is both just and merciful if I understand the doctrine correctly. 4
Navidad Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I don't believe this particular piece of folklore since I think it's intended to refer to the Telestial Kingdom, which is part of heaven, not hell, but our understanding of hell remains that, in the first instance, it's temporary, providing people who are unwilling to repent a 'try before you buy' opportunity to still change their minds. In the end, the only people who won't be redeemed and cleansed through the shed blood of Christ are those who, having experienced the awful separation from God, still prefer it. I find this helpful. Here is my question - If I understand the LDS point of view correctly there will be those who are "redeemed and cleansed through the shed blood of Christ" (to use your words) but who will not then spend eternity with Him and the Father, still in essence experiencing an "awful separation from God" (using your words) in the Telestial Kingdom. Those who qualify for the Terrestial Kingdom will not experience the Father, but possibly and occasional visit from Christ. Only those in some level of the Celestial Kingdom will experience eternal life in the presence of the Father and Son. Is that an incorrect statement on my part? I am drawing that conclusion from the sidebar "Kingdoms of Glory" on https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/telestial-kingdom?lang=eng I cannot get my head around how eternity in the absence of the Godhead is heaven of any kind? What if anything, am I getting wrong? Thanks. 1
Navidad Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Thanks, but of course, that part will not be debated, because the subject has already changed. I suppose this is directed at me. I am happy to debate anything you desire. I would in fact enjoy your response to what I have said instead of to what you think of me. I have been to the bank, my guys are paid, so I will be at the computer all day. Happy to discuss or debate whatever you think gets us back on the "subject." Edited February 16, 2022 by Navidad
Navidad Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 13 hours ago, kimpearson said: Official LDS doctrine is that no other churches have priesthood authority and the LDS church is the only church where Jesus Christ organized it through a prophet, Joseph Smith, and Jesus stands at the head of the Church. That is why it is called the Church of Jesus Christ. All other churches are considered organized and headed by men/women with no direct priesthood authority that Jesus Christ recognizes as having authority to bind in heaven. Thanks for a very clear and succinct explanation.
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 34 minutes ago, Calm said: Likely Baptism by desire would apply in those cases given God is both just and merciful if I understand the doctrine correctly. Yes, I was joking. I thought all the emojis would show that. We try to do every ordinance perfectly in the temple, but sometimes they get botched. We are taught that the atonement covers human frailty, "after all we can do". 1
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) Evil rankism strikes yet again!! https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/heaven "As all human beings inherit different circumstances, Latter-day Saints believe that a just and merciful God will account for our varying degrees of knowledge and access to truth. With this in mind, Latter-day Saint scripture teaches that all will eventually “enjoy that which they are willing to receive,” and to those that so desire, “all that [the] Father hath shall be given unto” them (Doctrine and Covenants 88:32; 84:38). In other words, a person’s reward in the afterlife will be determined by what they really desire in this life. To those who most desire to follow God and live as He lives, the New Testament promises that they shall be “heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17). " Edited February 16, 2022 by mfbukowski 2
CV75 Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 27 minutes ago, Navidad said: I find this helpful. Here is my question - If I understand the LDS point of view correctly there will be those who are "redeemed and cleansed through the shed blood of Christ" (to use your words) but who will not then spend eternity with Him and the Father, still in essence experiencing an "awful separation from God" (using your words) in the Telestial Kingdom. Those who qualify for the Terrestial Kingdom will not experience the Father, but possibly and occasional visit from Christ. Only those in some level of the Celestial Kingdom will experience eternal life in the presence of the Father and Son. Is that an incorrect statement on my part? I am drawing that conclusion from the sidebar "Kingdoms of Glory" on https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/telestial-kingdom?lang=eng I cannot get my head around how eternity in the absence of the Godhead is heaven of any kind? What if anything, am I getting wrong? Thanks. I think it is semantic. The telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are somewhere in the expanse around the earth, as is the celestial kingdom, the place where God lives. “In the scriptures, the word heaven is used in two basic ways. First, it refers to the place where God lives, which is the ultimate home of the faithful (see Mosiah 2:41). Second, it refers to the expanse around the earth (see Genesis 1:1).” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/heaven?lang=eng I think when the scriptures use the phrase, “the heavens were opened,” it refers to all the heavens including the place where God dwells. You have to pass through the places, or heavens, where God does not dwell to arrive where He lives. "Heaven" is also synonymous to "kingdom of glory" -- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng -- since a measure of His glory, from the heaven in which He dwells, is present everywhere (except outer darkness). 2
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, CV75 said: I think it is semantic. The telestial and terrestrial kingdoms are somewhere in the expanse around the earth, as is the celestial kingdom, the place where God lives. “In the scriptures, the word heaven is used in two basic ways. First, it refers to the place where God lives, which is the ultimate home of the faithful (see Mosiah 2:41). Second, it refers to the expanse around the earth (see Genesis 1:1).” https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/heaven?lang=eng I think when the scriptures use the phrase, “the heavens were opened,” it refers to all the heavens including the place where God dwells. You have to pass through the places, or heavens, where God does not dwell to arrive where He lives. "Heaven" is also synonymous to "kingdom of glory" -- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng -- since a measure of His glory, from the heaven in which He dwells, is present everywhere (except outer darkness). Also see this, also referenced just above. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/heaven I think we all get the absolute "best" that we can imagine heaven to be. We limit ourselves to where we think we belong Edited February 16, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted February 16, 2022 Popular Post Posted February 16, 2022 17 minutes ago, Navidad said: I find this helpful. Here is my question - If I understand the LDS point of view correctly there will be those who are "redeemed and cleansed through the shed blood of Christ" (to use your words) but who will not then spend eternity with Him and the Father, still in essence experiencing an "awful separation from God" (using your words) in the Telestial Kingdom. Those who qualify for the Terrestial Kingdom will not experience the Father, but possibly and occasional visit from Christ. Only those in some level of the Celestial Kingdom will experience eternal life in the presence of the Father and Son. Is that an incorrect statement on my part? I am drawing that conclusion from the sidebar "Kingdoms of Glory" on https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/telestial-kingdom?lang=eng I cannot get my head around how eternity in the absence of the Godhead is heaven of any kind? What if anything, am I getting wrong? Thanks. D&c 76 71-80 is the most detailed description of what it means to receive a terrestrial glory (for the record, like hamba, i don’t think of any degree of glory as anything other than heaven). I prefer primary source because there’s a lot that gets transmitted via common reasoning that isn’t actually in the text or is an interpretation of said text. Possible occasional visits would fall under there. There’s more juxtaposition of the telestial to the celestial and only those in the telestial kingdom are noted as being unable to dwell where Christ and HF are. Namely cuz they didn’t receive any part of them in this life. The terrestrial is tied with christ and states they “received of the presence of the son, but not of the fullness of the father.” They’re described in multiple ways but all of them kinda sort describing this partial reception. (Receiving glory, but not God’s fullness; Not valiant in their testimony of Christ v overcoming all things as described those who are celestial, etc). They’re said to not receive “the crown over the kingdom of God.” Most of the description seems to focus on power/capacity than location when describing the two. Of course this is also being transcribed via vision to the best of another mortal ability to comprehend and describe it. personally, I would strongly disagree with the idea of the terrestrial kingdom as an “awful separation” only having occasional visitations. And to determiner who will be in what kingdom entirely impossible to determine based on temporal litmus tests like affiliation or denomination. with luv, bd 5
CV75 Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 34 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Also see this, also referenced just above. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/heaven I think we all get the absolute "best" that we can imagine heaven to be. We limit ourselves to where we think we belong That's one helluva -- I mean heavenly -- article!
mfbukowski Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Navidad said: I cannot get my head around how eternity in the absence of the Godhead is heaven of any kind? What if anything, am I getting wrong? Thanks. The point is, that once one knows and can see with their own eyes the choice they are making to NOT want the necessary "training" that enables EVERYONE TO BECOME LIKE GOD, those who still do not want that path WILL NOT accept the temple work which will be done for them, and so they voluntarily limit their own progression They will see the alternative "face to face" and decide NOT to go forward. They will be the happiest as as wise as they want to be, and stop there THAT will be their personal heaven which they will knowingly accept for themselves Of course this discussion is limited by human language and prejudice, but the best we can now imagine how it works. It's not that "we have to become Mormon to advance" it will be an obvious choice that virtually all will see, plain as day. NO ONE else has this Doctrine and so we by default become the ONLY church that teaches it, by DEFINITION. We are not a "denomination" we are the ONLY one that teaches what we believe is the full story, all others are vague about heaven That's the best I can explain it. Period. You said: "I cannot get my head around how eternity in the absence of the Godhead is heaven of any kind? " Good then and quit kicking! You are already one of us, you just don't know it, and probably won't until you get to the other side! Edited February 16, 2022 by mfbukowski 2
Navidad Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 47 minutes ago, CV75 said: "Heaven" is also synonymous to "kingdom of glory" -- https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng -- since a measure of His glory, from the heaven in which He dwells, is present everywhere (except outer darkness). Would you mind clarifying for me what you mean by "a measure of His glory . . . is present everywhere"? Are you referring to the glory of the Father or the Son? What glory does either have that is present everywhere since neither is a spirit but a human? I am not debating or challenging, just trying to understand. Thanks.
CV75 Posted February 16, 2022 Posted February 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Navidad said: Would you mind clarifying for me what you mean by "a measure of His glory . . . is present everywhere"? Are you referring to the glory of the Father or the Son? What glory does either have that is present everywhere since neither is a spirit but a human? I am not debating or challenging, just trying to understand. Thanks. Their glory is often compared (in our lesson materials) to rays of sunlight, except the glory is spiritual and universal, which could entail a physical manifestation in some instances. The Father and the Son can be in one locale and their glory felt everywhere, according to the measure They allow. Forms of glory might be evident in grace, spiritual gifts, the light of Christ, the Spirit, etc.. In some measure, what we receive is what we are willing to receive, or to give God or to others (e.g. Mark 4:24).
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