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Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.


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9 hours ago, Rain said:

Not debating, but wondering if you feel the same way with other things.  God could meet the needs of refugee, but he allows us to be a part of it.  He could answer the prayer of the widow who has snow on her driveway and needs to go to the doctor by personally shoveling her driveway,  but he often inspires us to answer the pray by allowing us to shovel the snow.  He could heal a man with cancer, but he allows a doctor to use gifts he gave to the doctor to do it. He doesn't need any of us to do those things, but he lets us use our agency to do them.

Serious question - if he gives gifts to all his children to help others, why do you feel he could not give a gift of power to help others as well?

Hi: I think power and service are two very different things. Not all people who donate because they have wealth do so as an exercise in power. Service helps. Power often corrupts . . . didn't it do so with the subject of this thread? I was the superintendent of one of the largest school districts in America. Had I exercised my authority with the use of power I never would have gotten anywhere in bringing people together. I prayed for meekness and humility every day. I had tons of authority as well. I rarely ever exercised it; that would have almost always have been counterproductive. Whenever any human says in whatever role "I am the only one with authority" (code word for have power), I cringe . . . no one is ever the only one with authority or power. Meekness, humility, and acknowledging others' influence and auhtorities is what makes us strong . . . and powerful. Even the Greek word for authority in the NT in no way denotes "power." You are right, we probably simply disagree, but not just in a spiritual sense. Methinks piety is much to be preferred to power. Take care and have a great day! I gotta go get in the car and drive to the states!

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I think he needs to go, otherwise it would be like the Church is sending the message we're not real racist but still racist because we kept this guy on in a calling. You wonder if he was ever vetted, like how did he get to this point at as a General Officer? it's crazy. The last three Presidents of the Church have worked sp hard to undo it's racist image but if they keep him on it's like they are talking out of the side of their mouth.

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I wonder about the title of the fireside…The Alpine Utah Mormon Youth Rescue. 

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3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi: I think power and service are two very different things. Not all people who donate because they have wealth do so as an exercise in power. Service helps. Power often corrupts . . . didn't it do so with the subject of this thread? I was the superintendent of one of the largest school districts in America. Had I exercised my authority with the use of power I never would have gotten anywhere in bringing people together. I prayed for meekness and humility every day. I had tons of authority as well. I rarely ever exercised it; that would have almost always have been counterproductive. Whenever any human says in whatever role "I am the only one with authority" (code word for have power), I cringe . . . no one is ever the only one with authority or power. Meekness, humility, and acknowledging others' influence and auhtorities is what makes us strong . . . and powerful. Even the Greek word for authority in the NT in no way denotes "power." You are right, we probably simply disagree, but not just in a spiritual sense. Methinks piety is much to be preferred to power. Take care and have a great day! I gotta go get in the car and drive to the states!

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Perhaps you misunderstand the LDS concept of priesthood power. I’m sure you have heard this exposition before, but I’ll share it here for convenience. It is one of the most beautiful scriptures of the Restoration.
 

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D&C 121:

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

44 That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

45 Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven.

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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17 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I wonder about the title of the fireside…The Alpine Utah Mormon Youth Rescue. 

I think that was John Dehlin's title (I think it was his edited video in the beginning of the thread). It wasn't the whole talk; for example, he edited out a part where Wilcox said that Elder Uchtdorf likes ESY camps because they might get their parents to stop fighting about masks and vaccines. I wonder why that wasn't included in the outrage mob version?

 

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3 minutes ago, rongo said:

I think that was John Dehlin's title (I think it was his edited video in the beginning of the thread). It wasn't the whole talk; for example, he edited out a part where Wilcox said that Elder Uchtdorf likes ESY camps because they might get their parents to stop fighting about masks and vaccines. I wonder why that wasn't included in the outrage mob version?

 

I read online that the whole talk was taken down due to copyright laws and so only snippets exist. The big issue is Brad Wilcox is an idiot plain and simple

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25 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I read online that the whole talk was taken down due to copyright laws and so only snippets exist. 

Still in the Dropbox for now as far as I can tell, the whole thing is over an hour. 

Edited by Calm
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8 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Please show me where this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me all the conference talks indicating this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me the lesson manuals indicating this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me the books by general authorities indicating this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me the scripture references that point this out as a central theme.  Especially point out the specific references indicating that outrage over false doctrine taught by a member of the Church is wrong.  I am sure you won't mention that nasty scene where someone preaching false doctrine was called out for it and got so mad they smote the person expressing outrage with a sword and killed him.  I don't remember the Book of Mormon saying that murder was justified because the person murdered was outraged and angry over what the church member was teaching.

The central theme is the testament of Christ. This involves, by His own observation (3 Nephi 11:29 -- the devil is the accuser), the sense of being outraged and wronged by the righteous (beginning with Nephi's vision of the Lord's ministry and His crucifixion), which fuels the "keep the commandments and you will be blessed in the land" theme (beginning with 1 Nephi 2:20 and the attitudes of Laman and Lemuel toward their father and Nephi), which fuels the "pride cycle" theme. It weaves throughout he book. Opposition against Christ, His servants, His Church, the principles of righteousness is fueled by the devil (the accuser, as there is opposition in all things, another theme fueled by the testament of Christ).

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Rongo-

I think that was John Dehlin's title (I think it was his edited video in the beginning of the thread). It wasn't the whole talk; for example, he edited out a part where Wilcox said that Elder Uchtdorf likes ESY camps because they might get their parents to stop fighting about masks and vaccines. I wonder why that wasn't included in the outrage mob version?

That part about the ESY camps occurs at the very beginning and I don't recall it being mentioned on this thread. But even that was horribly problematic IMO. I don't know why Dehlin didn't mention it because it also illustrates how over-the-top Wilcox is. For example, he said something to the effect of "Do whatever it takes to attend FSY. If you lose a job, or miss your family reunion etc. Run and be a part of FSY regardless of the cost."

Talk about a high pressure push to get people to be a part of FSY. Whatever it takes is a bit much. I could imagine many situations where a youth may need to make a decision that keeps them from participating but Wilcox doesn't seem to allow for that. It was kind of bully language IMO.

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6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Maybe the problem is that they've been trying to change the "image" instead of addressing the teachings that create the "image" in the first place.

I sure would like to understand and see examples of "the teachings" you are referencing here.

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Sadly, they have been talking out of the side of their mouth and if there is not some kind of a public reckoning with Wilcox, the teachings will persist. IF they deal with the bad teachings then others will get the message. Otherwise, it all seems perfectly acceptable to teach those things even if it may earn the occasional slap on the hand for being inarticulate.

I have spent my entire life in the Church.  I have encountered a few instances of members saying insensitive or even plainly inappropriate things pertaining to race.  But "teachings" would seem to be something that we could point to.  In the manuals, in General Conference talks, on the Church's website, etc.

So . . . CFR.  I'd like to better understand what it is you are referencing here.

Thanks,

-Smac

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30 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

don't recall it being mentioned on this thread.

I mentioned it briefly, family reunions being dumped seemed like a wrong order of priorities imo.  And summer jobs are often about earning money for missions and college, so is he really wanting them to forget about them?  It felt like he was pushing it as the opening act for the second coming. 
 

I didn’t see it as bully language, but high pressure sales tactics and some patronizing guilting…the exact kind of thing that would have me saying ‘not interested’.  Does that ever really work with teens?

Edited by Calm
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10 hours ago, Rivers said:

I am just surprised at this whole thing because it doesn’t sound like the Brad Wilcox I know and love.  I am most familiar with his talks on grace.
 

From the parts of the talk I heard, it all sounded like things I’ve heard my whole life in the church.  So none of it really would have phased me except that it came from Brad Wilcox.  I guess he didn’t get the memo that this kind of rhetoric is not kosher anymore.
 

He's just saying what he's been taught. The church can't have not known what he's taught at these youth firesides all these years. It's time for the church to tell the truth of what it truly believes. That Cain killed Abel and cursed him with dark skin. They haven't flat out denied this have they? They are afraid to say the prophets were wrong or still believe the narrative from the beginning. They only mention Brigham Young. Why would so many prophets not get the memo either.

Edited by Tacenda
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2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I think he needs to go, otherwise it would be like the Church is sending the message we're not real racist but still racist because we kept this guy on in a calling. You wonder if he was ever vetted, like how did he get to this point at as a General Officer? it's crazy. The last three Presidents of the Church have worked sp hard to undo it's racist image but if they keep him on it's like they are talking out of the side of their mouth.

I don’t necessarily think he needs to go if he owns what he did and there is some sort of actual public acknowledgment. His “apology” was limited and lacking. 

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I read online that the whole talk was taken down due to copyright laws and so only snippets exist. The big issue is Brad Wilcox is an idiot plain and simple

I don't think that Brad is an idiot.  He has never acted like one around me, and his address at our last General Conference was pretty good.  Maybe he just had a bad day.  I'm just glad that I'm not a general authority -- I know that I would mess up big time.  :pirate:

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10 hours ago, Rivers said:

I am just surprised at this whole thing because it doesn’t sound like the Brad Wilcox I know and love.  I am most familiar with his talks on grace.
 

From the parts of the talk I heard, it all sounded like things I’ve heard my whole life in the church.  So none of it really would have phased me except that it came from Brad Wilcox.  I guess he didn’t get the memo that this kind of rhetoric is not kosher anymore.

That is what is so strange.  His previous addresses have always been so articulate and mellifluous.  I've worked with the guy and he never acted like a fool.

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I sure would like to understand and see examples of "the teachings" you are referencing here.

I have spent my entire life in the Church.  I have encountered a few instances of members saying insensitive or even plainly inappropriate things pertaining to race.  But "teachings" would seem to be something that we could point to.  In the manuals, in General Conference talks, on the Church's website, etc.

So . . . CFR.  I'd like to better understand what it is you are referencing here.

Thanks,

-Smac

let's start with Randy Bott

https://www.deseret.com/2012/2/29/20396723/lds-church-condemns-past-racism-inside-and-outside-the-church

let's continue with disgusting Dennis Horne, who changed the word "negroes" to "Africans" in a blog post post dated from last year

https://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2021/02/apostles-prophets-and-gods-former.html

a poster from here pointed it out and he changed it

http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2021/02/question-for-dennis-b-horne.html

all kinds of teachings in Dennis' vomit inducing piece

 

it's sad that 6 years earlier Pres. Hinckley denounced racism but did people listen?

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/president-gordon-b-hinckley-on-racial-intolerance

plus that Ayla or the "wife with a purpose" she doesn't speak for the church but 

https://nypost.com/2017/03/31/this-young-mom-is-the-face-of-mormonisms-hateful-alt-right/

https://kutv.com/news/local/have-the-first-presidency-tell-me-controversial-blogger-says-after-lds-church-statement

Now, President Nelson is denouncing racism in the Church but Brad Wilcox and now John Bytheway in his book didn't get the message

a 10 year old girl in Utah even killed herself because of she was "harassed because of her race and “disability.”

one wonders where these ideas come from to bully someone because of her race and disability, why didn't parents stop it? 

Edited by Duncan
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56 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That part about the ESY camps occurs at the very beginning and I don't recall it being mentioned on this thread. But even that was horribly problematic IMO. I don't know why Dehlin didn't mention it because it also illustrates how over-the-top Wilcox is. For example, he said something to the effect of "Do whatever it takes to attend FSY. If you lose a job, or miss your family reunion etc. Run and be a part of FSY regardless of the cost."

Talk about a high pressure push to get people to be a part of FSY. Whatever it takes is a bit much. I could imagine many situations where a youth may need to make a decision that keeps them from participating but Wilcox doesn't seem to allow for that. It was kind of bully language IMO.

I agree with Cal, in that I don't see it as bullying but I think it's short sighted.  FSY isn't going to be a homerun with every kid, and there are probably legitimate things that kids should choose instead.  Some kids do great in those kinds of setups but not all kids. For some that environment is kind of a nightmare.

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15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

let's start with Randy Bott

https://www.deseret.com/2012/2/29/20396723/lds-church-condemns-past-racism-inside-and-outside-the-church

let's continue with disgusting Dennis Horne, who changed the word "negroes" to "Africans" in a blog post post dated from last year

https://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2021/02/apostles-prophets-and-gods-former.html

a poster from here pointed it out and he changed it

http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2021/02/question-for-dennis-b-horne.html

all kinds of teachings in Dennis' vomit inducing piece

 

it's sad that 6 years earlier Pres. Hinckley denounced racism but did people listen?

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/president-gordon-b-hinckley-on-racial-intolerance

Now, President Nelson is denouncing racism in the Church but Brad Wilcox and now John Bytheway in his book didn't get the message

a 10 year old girl in Utah even killed herself because of she was "harassed because of her race and “disability.”

one wonders where these ideas come from to bully someone because of her race and disability, why didn't parents stop it? 

Kids are jerks.  My son was being bullied for a while because his head was "too oblong".  His head is perfectly normal (you've seen pictures of him on facebook so you know I'm not just being a mom about that).  Kids will literally make stuff up to pick on other kids about if they can't find any obvious differences to make fun of.  And being a different color is low hanging fruit for kids in elementary school. 

It's a horrible thing to do, and that girl's suicide is devastating (i can't even imagine the pain her family is still going through), but I don't know that I believe that she was bullied because the other kids' parents were repeating old church teachings about race in the home.

Those parents might be racists (and shame on them if they are), but they also might be regular parents who did not know their kids were being awful at school and never thought to talk to them about race specifically.  In this kinds of situations, with the info that we have, I don't think we can make those kinds of accusations.

And who is Dennis Horne? Does he represent the church in some way?  I've never heard of him.

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51 minutes ago, Calm said:

I mentioned it briefly, family reunions being dumped seemed like a wrong order of priorities imo.  And summer jobs are often about earning money for missions and college, so is he really wanting them to forget about them?  It felt like he was pushing it as the opening act for the second coming. 
 

I didn’t see it as bully language, but high pressure sales tactics and some patronizing guilting…the exact kind of thing that would have me saying ‘not interested’.  Does that ever really work with teens?

 

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree with Cal, in that I don't see it as bullying but I think it's short sighted.  FSY isn't going to be a homerun with every kid, and there are probably legitimate things that kids should choose instead.  Some kids do great in those kinds of setups but not all kids. For some that environment is kind of a nightmare.

That's fair. IMO it's just a higher degree of high pressure. The reason I labeled it bullying (and I've got no problem with the pushback) is because the "high-pressure, patronizing, guilting" was done by someone in power over those who have no power. There is a huge power differential between a church leader who is being patronizing etc towards youth who are young, impressionable and have no power in the presenter/listener relationship. I think Wilcox misused the power he had by virtue of his calling and opportunity to speak as a leader.

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24 minutes ago, Duncan said:

let's start with Randy Bott

https://www.deseret.com/2012/2/29/20396723/lds-church-condemns-past-racism-inside-and-outside-the-church

let's continue with disgusting Dennis Horne, who changed the word "negroes" to "Africans" in a blog post post dated from last year

https://www.truthwillprevail.xyz/2021/02/apostles-prophets-and-gods-former.html

a poster from here pointed it out and he changed it

http://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2021/02/question-for-dennis-b-horne.html

all kinds of teachings in Dennis' vomit inducing piece

 

it's sad that 6 years earlier Pres. Hinckley denounced racism but did people listen?

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/president-gordon-b-hinckley-on-racial-intolerance

plus that Ayla or the "wife with a purpose" she doesn't speak for the church but 

https://nypost.com/2017/03/31/this-young-mom-is-the-face-of-mormonisms-hateful-alt-right/

Now, President Nelson is denouncing racism in the Church but Brad Wilcox and now John Bytheway in his book didn't get the message

a 10 year old girl in Utah even killed herself because of she was "harassed because of her race and “disability.”

one wonders where these ideas come from to bully someone because of her race and disability, why didn't parents stop it? 

I'm with my in laws on vacation and they were discussing how racist it is for Biden to say he's picking a black woman as a candidate for the supreme court. I don't understand it. Am I going crazy?😩

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12 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Because it feels like you don't want to take a strong stand on the talk which is your right but that is the sense I get.  That seemingly sends the message that this talk is not that big of a deal.

So what you are saying is that if I don't agree with you on how this should be handled, it sends a strong message that this talk is not that big of a deal to me?  That seems like you think you are the standard that everyone else should use to measure whether our reacts are acceptable or not.  

Am I misunderstanding you?   

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4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Kids are jerks.  My son was being bullied for a while because his head was "too oblong".  His head is perfectly normal (you've seen pictures of him on facebook so you know I'm not just being a mom about that).  Kids will literally make stuff up to pick on other kids about if they can't find any obvious differences to make fun of.  And being a different color is low hanging fruit for kids in elementary school. 

It's a horrible thing to do, and that girl's suicide is devastating (i can't even imagine the pain her family is still going through), but I don't know that I believe that she was bullied because the other kids' parents were repeating old church teachings about race in the home.

Those parents might be racists (and shame on them if they are), but they also might be regular parents who did not know their kids were being awful at school and never thought to talk to them about race specifically.  In this kinds of situations, with the info that we have, I don't think we can make those kinds of accusations.

And who is Dennis Horne? Does he represent the church in some way?  I've never heard of him.

Dennis Horne is a blogger and comments on various blogs. He said the Church would never apologize for the priesthood ban and threatened to leave the church if an obscure viewpoint was taught openly. He writes books that get sold at deseretbook and such places, he is no fan of women or people that don't think like Elder McConkie and Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith. He gave a lecture at Benchmark books about Orson F. Whitney and all but called him an adulterer and a homosexual, which he hates. It's probably still online

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Just now, Tacenda said:

I'm with my in laws on vacation and they were discussing how racist it is for Biden to say he's picking a black woman as a candidate for the supreme court. I don't understand it. Am I going crazy?😩

They are trying to make the argument that picking someone just because of their race is no different than not picking someone just because of their race.   And they are probably mimicking those who are saying things like--

Quote

 

"President Biden’s criteria for the Supreme Court is blatantly discriminatory toward the qualified non candidates—the white females and the black and white males who will not even be considered for this vacancy.

It is also demeaning to the black women who compose this select group of candidates, by the inference that Mr. Biden needs to eliminate almost all the competition for them to be considered. Who wants to win a race that way?"

 

It's a sentiment that I'm hearing a lot of in some circles:

Quote

"Prof. Turley is right that “a college couldn’t get away with Biden’s high-court criteria.” Neither could a trial judge let a prosecutor get away with such announced racial criteria even for selecting a jury in a criminal case. Race may be in the prosecutor’s mind, but other reasons must be given.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed Justice Felix Frankfurter to replace Justice Benjamin Cardozo, as President John F, Kennedy appointed Justice Arthur Goldberg to replace Frankfurter. Neither president announced they were filling the “Jewish seat” on the Supreme Court. President Biden could have made his point as effectively but less demeaningly to the ultimate nominee and the court, by simply selecting a black woman."

Brian R. Merrick

West Barnstable, Mass.

Mr. Merrick is a retired justice of the Massachusetts District Court.

 

It's just a way to complain about Biden.  If Trump did it these people wouldn't make a peep about it.

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3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Dennis Horne is a blogger and comments on various blogs. He said the Church would never apologize for the priesthood ban and threatened to leave the church if an obscure viewpoint was taught openly. He writes books that get sold at deseretbook and such places, he is no fan of women or people that don't think like Elder McConkie and Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith. He gave a lecture at Benchmark books about Orson F. Whitney and all but called him an adulterer and a homosexual, which he hates. It's probably still online

He sounds like a real winner.  👎

Deseret Books has some real dumb stuff on their shelves.  Robert K. Young books are horrible, but I think you can still buy them there.  It's probably both good that they don't sensor or vett stuff too much, and also kind of bad at the same time.

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