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Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.

kimpearson

By kimpearson
in General Discussions

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Navidad Grand Master

Navidad

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, James 1 5 said:

Power is 

1. the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality.

2. the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.

Power is:

1. The ability to exert influence over others that doesn't necessarily involve their best interest or without their cooperation.

2. The capability or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others in ways that they may not desire.

3. Power is the ability to do or have your own way over other human beings in a way they are helpless to defend against.

Duncan Grand Master

Duncan

Posted
Posted

Wilcox has placed the First Presidency in a very difficult position. They and past First Presidencies have tried so hard to get out from a racist view that people have of the Church and now the Brad Wilcox's of the Church have upset the apple cart. So, do they say we'll him on in his calling but that would make them look complicit in what he was saying and undo all the efforts they have made in regard to racism, relationship's with other church's OR they drop him and which would send a message that no, we don't do believe that. If they put out a memo saying something and yet keep him in his calling, that could be well, we don't believe what he said was good or true but we want to keep him on (would you trust him though or would other church's trust ours in regards to racism?) Either way his influence has taken a hit and what he'll do next I have no idea

Navidad Grand Master

Navidad

Posted
Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We believe that the priesthood is the authority to act in God's name, so I think that's why Robert was talking about power-meaning, God's power.

I'm sorry I cannot comprehend this. God's power is His to enact or delimit. He needs no humans to enact it. If God chooses to heal, that is an exercise of His power. He doesn't need a human to accomplish that does He? If God chooses to control the elements, does He need to do that through a human agency? God's power is His and His alone to exercise. I don't want to debate, so I will step out of this, but I can't comprehend what you all are trying to say. Sorry. If anything, I think a human's role is to get out of the way of God's power. We will muck it up almost every time! Doesn't II Cor 12 indicate that He is made strong in our weakness? Take care.

Edited by Navidad
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ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
  • Popular Post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rongo said:

Should John Bytheway also be on the chopping block?

Yes.

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Should Deseret Book have to go through the abasement, groveling apology ritual?

Yes.

Edited by ttribe
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Hamba Tuhan Grand Master

Hamba Tuhan

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I'm sorry I cannot comprehend this.

That's OK. You're a Protestant. Protestantism rests on an ideological basis that is anti-church authority.

1
Navidad Grand Master

Navidad

Posted
Posted
Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

That's OK. You're a Protestant. Protestantism rests on an ideological basis that is anti-church authority.

OK. I certainly agree with that, except I am a Mennonite, not a Protestant. We were restoring the church long before the Protestants! I just had to say that to be ornery! The Mennonite part of me is not-Protestant. The ordained Baptist part of me is Protestant. The LDS part of me believes in orthopraxy - so I do my best to walk my talk! Take care.

ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Someone get the fire ready; it's time to burn some books! :tribal:

You have got to be kidding me.

ETA: There is a world of difference between advocating for burning books which contradict or challenge societal norms or sacred cows and asserting that a church should apologize and distance itself from teachings it knows are false and harmful.  Currently, in the U.S. it is the Religious Right currently advocating for and actually holding book burning activities because certain literature doesn't comport with their belief system.

Edited by ttribe
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ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Someone get the fire ready; it's time to burn some books! :tribal:

 

1 minute ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Set the ovens to 233 degrees Celsius. (Because I prefer using sensible units of temperature)

Are you two actually defending the teaching of racist and misogynistic ideas?

ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted

Couldn't find that this had been posted in this thread (I admit I may have missed it), but BYU issued these statements via Twitter:

 

bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, rongo said:

Should John Bytheway also be on the chopping block? Should Deseret Book have to go through the abasement, groveling apology ritual?

https://deseretbook.com/p/when-it-doesnt-make-sense-ppr?queryID=26d086a71b91de92296a5b1cde5f38fa&variant_id=196213-paperback

20220208_123150-scaled.jpg

I think Bytheway is on the Young Men's General Board, isn't he? 

I don't have a problem with people presenting their personal ideas in their personal books.    And I don't think there is anything evil about the ideas expressed in on this page (I just don't think they are very good answers to the issues and can lead to problems.)

1
bluebell Grand Master

bluebell

Posted
Posted
47 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I'm sorry I cannot comprehend this. God's power is His to enact or delimit. He needs no humans to enact it. If God chooses to heal, that is an exercise of His power. He doesn't need a human to accomplish that does He? If God chooses to control the elements, does He need to do that through a human agency? God's power is His and His alone to exercise. I don't want to debate, so I will step out of this, but I can't comprehend what you all are trying to say. Sorry. If anything, I think a human's role is to get out of the way of God's power. We will muck it up almost every time! Doesn't II Cor 12 indicate that He is made strong in our weakness? Take care.

It's just another belief that we disagree on.

And to clarify, we don't believe that He gives people the power to act in His name because He needs to, we believe He does so because He is in the business of making us like Him, and allow us to practice what He does it one way to do that.

3
Hamba Tuhan Grand Master

Hamba Tuhan

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Are you two actually defending the teaching of racist and misogynistic ideas?

Cos that's the only explanation if we don't join the mob, right?

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
Rain Grand Master

Rain

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I'm sorry I cannot comprehend this. God's power is His to enact or delimit. He needs no humans to enact it. If God chooses to heal, that is an exercise of His power. He doesn't need a human to accomplish that does He? If God chooses to control the elements, does He need to do that through a human agency? God's power is His and His alone to exercise. I don't want to debate, so I will step out of this, but I can't comprehend what you all are trying to say. Sorry. If anything, I think a human's role is to get out of the way of God's power. We will muck it up almost every time! Doesn't II Cor 12 indicate that He is made strong in our weakness? Take care.

Not debating, but wondering if you feel the same way with other things.  God could meet the needs of refugee, but he allows us to be a part of it.  He could answer the prayer of the widow who has snow on her driveway and needs to go to the doctor by personally shoveling her driveway,  but he often inspires us to answer the pray by allowing us to shovel the snow.  He could heal a man with cancer, but he allows a doctor to use gifts he gave to the doctor to do it. He doesn't need any of us to do those things, but he lets us use our agency to do them.

Serious question - if he gives gifts to all his children to help others, why do you feel he could not give a gift of power to help others as well?

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Hamba Tuhan Grand Master

Hamba Tuhan

Posted
Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Currently, in the U.S. it is the Religious Right currently advocating for and actually holding book burning activities because certain literature doesn't comport with their belief system.

Yeah, it's so much more 'progressive' to compel the people who wrote the books (or their publishers?) to apologise for having had thoughts that don't comport with your belief system.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
1
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Cos that's the only explanation if we don't join the mob, right?

What's with all this 'book burning' and 'mob' rhetoric?

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yeah, it's so much more 'progressive' to compel the people who wrote the books (or their publishers?) to apologise for having had thoughts that don't comport with your belief system.

Is what he said wrong? Yes or no?

2
Hamba Tuhan Grand Master

Hamba Tuhan

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

What's with all this 'book burning' and 'mob' rhetoric?

You don't like the reflection in the mirror?

Quote

Is what he said wrong? Yes or no?

That depends entirely on whom one asks, and 'yes or no' is almost certainly an attempt to impose a false, all-or-nothing dichotomy. 

As I already noted on the first page of this thread, 'The first clip reminds me of things I've heard my former housemate from Sierra Leone say in response to people's questions'. Do you wish him to apologise too?

1
ttribe Grand Master

ttribe

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You don't like the reflection in the mirror?

That depends entirely on whom one asks, and 'yes or no' is almost certainly an attempt to impose a false, all-or-nothing dichotomy. 

As I already noted on the first page of this thread, 'The first clip reminds me of things I've heard my former housemate from Sierra Leone say in response to people's questions'. Do you wish him to apologise too?

Wow. I just don't think I'm going to engage with you anymore on this.

1
Bernard Gui Grand Master

Bernard Gui

Posted
Posted
11 hours ago, Buckeye said:

I agree. But it can be redirected to the church rather than individuals such as Wilcox. 

That’s what I meant. As long as the Church holds to the Restoration claim there will be opposition from within and without. 

kimpearson Rising Star

kimpearson

Posted
  • Author
Posted
1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You don't like the reflection in the mirror?

That depends entirely on whom one asks, and 'yes or no' is almost certainly an attempt to impose a false, all-or-nothing dichotomy. 

As I already noted on the first page of this thread, 'The first clip reminds me of things I've heard my former housemate from Sierra Leone say in response to people's questions'. Do you wish him to apologise too?

 

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Having an opinion and being wrong on that opinion is not an offense one should be fired from.   I suppose you have have opinions on issues that might offend someone out there. Would that be a cause to fire you?

 

3 hours ago, Rivers said:

If everyone got fired for having an opinion that offended someone, nobody would have a job.

 

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have no suggestions.  I really have no idea what would be best in this situation.

 

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Cos that's the only explanation if we don't join the mob, right?

So the minimization of of the talk starts.  It was just his opinion.  He didn't mean to hurt anyone.  He apologized.  Anyone who feels hurts just doesn't understand the gospel.  Brad is actually the one being attacked by those under the influence of the devil.  He was doing this all by himself.  It was just a minor misstatement and just one time.  I don't know what to do about it because it doesn't seem like something to take a stand on.  Its just not important enough in the grand scheme of things for me to feel anything strong about it.  What a change from the early pages of this discussion.  Circle the wagons and use your musket to shot those unfaithful complainers.

I realize it is so painful when the institution you think is perfect turns out not to be.  Do you really think Brad was doing all these firesides on his own?  I can't confirm it but I have a feeling that those in authority over Brad have asked and paid for many of his trips to deliver the message because he is such a beloved figure to the youth.  He has spouted his foolishness to thousands and thousand as a representative of the Church of Jesus Christ.  He was introduced at every fireside we have on record as a member of the Young Men's presidency.  In Georgia he moved everyone off the stand in a move I have seen numerous times with general authorities.  He is Paul H Dunn on steroids.  It sound like many of you want Brad to continue giving the same firesides.

Now if Brad were John Dehlin, Kate Kelly, Sam Young or any nonmember of the Church using phrases like stupid, girls, angry women, you will lose everything, your asking the wrong question and if you don't believe like me you are just playing at your religion in front of crowds of nonmembers over the next, who knows, 5 years, many of you would be going literally crazy condemning them.

I would love for someone to prove to me that Brad wasn't doing this under the guidance and full knowledge of those above him.

How is this any different than Korihor.  Oh I know, Korihor denied Christ, Brad only denied that the worship of Christ by billions as sincere and real.  Its just playing.

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