Brad Wilcox fireside to Alpine youth on Feb 6.

[Hamba Tuhan]

53 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

How is this any different than Korihor. 

Interestingly, I've been thinking more of Amalickiah. When he found that the people didn't share his sense of outrage, he placed men on their towers to incite greater outrage. It certainly worked for him.

Keep stirring, bro!

Edited February 11, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

But not without a man presiding somewhere in the temple. A member of the temple presidency must be in the temple. 
 

But they serve under the authority of a mission President, not the MP’s wife. 

And the temple and mission presidents can only function because they hold the keys given by God the Father through his Son Jesus Christ. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And the temple and mission presidents can only function because they hold the keys given by God the Father through his Son Jesus Christ. 

I do not disagree in the slightest, but not sure how that is relevant to what I was discussing.

[bluebell]

46 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

 

 

 

 

So the minimization of of the talk starts.  It was just his opinion.  He didn't mean to hurt anyone.  He apologized.  Anyone who feels hurts just doesn't understand the gospel.  Brad is actually the one being attacked by those under the influence of the devil.  He was doing this all by himself.  It was just a minor misstatement and just one time.  I don't know what to do about it because it doesn't seem like something to take a stand on.  Its just not important enough in the grand scheme of things for me to feel anything strong about it.  What a change from the early pages of this discussion.  Circle the wagons and use your musket to shot those unfaithful complainers.

I realize it is so painful when the institution you think is perfect turns out not to be.  Do you really think Brad was doing all these firesides on his own?  I can't confirm it but I have a feeling that those in authority over Brad have asked and paid for many of his trips to deliver the message because he is such a beloved figure to the youth.  He has spouted his foolishness to thousands and thousand as a representative of the Church of Jesus Christ.  He was introduced at every fireside we have on record as a member of the Young Men's presidency.  In Georgia he moved everyone off the stand in a move I have seen numerous times with general authorities.  He is Paul H Dunn on steroids.  It sound like many of you want Brad to continue giving the same firesides.

Now if Brad were John Dehlin, Kate Kelly, Sam Young or any nonmember of the Church using phrases like stupid, girls, angry women, you will lose everything, your asking the wrong question and if you don't believe like me you are just playing at your religion in front of crowds of nonmembers over the next, who knows, 5 years, many of you would be going literally crazy condemning them.

I would love for someone to prove to me that Brad wasn't doing this under the guidance and full knowledge of those above him.

How is this any different than Korihor.  Oh I know, Korihor denied Christ, Brad only denied that the worship of Christ by billions as sincere and real.  Its just playing.

How is saying I don’t know what would be best “minimizing the talk”?

 

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, juliann said:

If we are talking about possibilities, Emma may matter. But it is irrelevant to the current situation. This is what it boils down to when it comes to excluding women: the church can function without women. The church would cease to exist if there were no men. Women having some vague priesthood is meaningless when we can't even hold a sacrament meeting without a man. 

I hadn't heard Wilcox before. If he wasn't who he was, my first reaction would have been that he was tipsy. 

True, but a group of men holding the priesthood could not hold a sacrament meeting without the presence of the bishop or his designee in the case of his absence. Nor could they conduct any other ordinance or function in any official capacity without the permission of the key holder. 

[Bernard Gui]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do not disagree in the slightest, but not sure how that is relevant to what I was discussing.

Just that the ultimate authority is centered in and derived from two beings who are masculine. It seems to be the eternal way things are done IMO. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[kimpearson]

17 minutes ago, bluebell said:

How is saying I don’t know what would be best “minimizing the talk”?

 

Because it feels like you don't want to take a strong stand on the talk which is your right but that is the sense I get.  That seemingly sends the message that this talk is not that big of a deal.

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, juliann said:

It might have worked if anything was funny. I did hear some audience chuckling at the beginning so reactions were audible to some extent,  but the rest of it was dead silence. It made me wonder if he started trying harder because of that. It was the over the top vocal effects that gave me the tipsy vibe. 

We thought it could be a physical or mental issue or age-related. 

[kimpearson]

34 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Interestingly, I've been thinking more of Amalickiah. When he found that the people didn't share his sense of outrage, he placed men on their towers to incite greater outrage. It certainly worked for him.

Keep stirring, bro!

So Amalickiah who tried to destroy the government of the Nephites and rejected the results of a fair election is equivalent to those who are upset with Brad's talk.  I guess that description of Amalickiah doesn't look similar to anything else going on in this day and age.  I am really struggling how you got there but you did.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

True, but a group of men holding the priesthood could not hold a sacrament meeting without the presence of the bishop or his designee in the case of his absence. Nor could they conduct any other ordinance or function in any official capacity without the permission of the key holder. 

And who can *he designate? As long as there is a Priest around you are good to go:

“And he is to take the lead of meetings when there is no elder present;” D&C 20:49

[let’s roll]

To the group...

You are asked to talk to youth by adult leaders and parents who are concerned about both how those youth understand spirituality/discipleship and the amount of effort they expend in pursuing those attributes.

What are your 3-4 talking points?

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Just that the ultimate authority is centered in and derived from two beings who are masculine. It seems to be the eternal way things are done IMO. 

I am thinking you and Robert should get together and discuss this and I will just watch.

This wasn’t the first comment he made on this subtopic, but I feel it was the fullest of his earlier posts:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74332-brad-wilcox-fireside-to-alpine-youth-on-feb-6/?do=findComment&comment=1210080618

 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

To the group...

You are asked to talk to youth by adult leaders and parents who are concerned about both how those youth understand spirituality/discipleship and the amount of effort they expend in pursuing those attributes.

What are your 3-4 talking points?

Is this to compare to Brother Wilcox’s efforts or are you starting another topic?

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

To the group...

You are asked to talk to youth by adult leaders and parents who are concerned about both how those youth understand spirituality/discipleship and the amount of effort they expend in pursuing those attributes.

What are your 3-4 talking points?

you could ask the leaders what to talk about or you could use the spirit to talk about God wants them to know

[let’s roll]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this to compare to Brother Wilcox’s efforts or are you starting another topic?

No agenda, just seeking the collective wisdom of the group.  I’ve had the opportunity to do so on a number of occasions and am interested in how others would address youth if given the opportunity.

[Hamba Tuhan]

34 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I am really struggling how you got there but you did.

One of the central themes of the Book of Mormon is the utility of purveying outrage and preaching to people that they have been wronged. I strongly suspect it's one reason (of many!) why we need the text so much in our day -- to help us recognise these phenomena ... and the risks associated with them.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

56 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

And who can *he designate? As long as there is a Priest around you are good to go:

“And he is to take the lead of meetings when there is no elder present;” D&C 20:49

He usually designates a counselor. In several wards I have been in when the entire bishopric and the EQP have been absent a member of the stake presidency has come to preside over sacrament meeting. But it is clear that a priest cannot perform an ordinance (baptism, sacrament, ordination) without the authorization of his bishop. 
 

Handbook 29.2.1.2

“If the bishop and his counselors are not able to attend sacrament meeting, the stake president designates who presides. Normally he designates the elders quorum president. However, he could invite another priesthood holder, preferably a high priest or elder.”

Edited February 11, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

37 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

To the group...

You are asked to talk to youth by adult leaders and parents who are concerned about both how those youth understand spirituality/discipleship and the amount of effort they expend in pursuing those attributes.

What are your 3-4 talking points?

Reading/studying/listening (including to me) will never result in knowledge, just an invitation to action.

Knowledge is dependent on action. (I know what I know because I've experienced it for myself.)

The kind of action that generates knowledge requires genuine faith in Jesus Christ.

The kind of action that generates knowledge requires a willingness to discover that one has been wrong and needs to change her/his mind (repentance).

Edited February 11, 2022 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

37 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am thinking you and Robert should get together and discuss this and I will just watch.

This wasn’t the first comment he made on this subtopic, but I feel it was the fullest of his earlier posts:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74332-brad-wilcox-fireside-to-alpine-youth-on-feb-6/?do=findComment&comment=1210080618

 

I may not agree with Robert on this, but that’s ok. I’m sure he would trim my beard. I believe our earthly priesthood structure mirrors the heavenly pattern. IMO Alma’s teachings on Melchizedek and  foreordination to the Priesthood After the Order of the Son of God make this clear. Alma 13.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

Because it feels like you don't want to take a strong stand on the talk which is your right but that is the sense I get.  That seemingly sends the message that this talk is not that big of a deal.

Can one take a strong stand without asking for Bro Wilcox’s head?

[Rivers]

I am just surprised at this whole thing because it doesn’t sound like the Brad Wilcox I know and love.  I am most familiar with his talks on grace.
 

From the parts of the talk I heard, it all sounded like things I’ve heard my whole life in the church.  So none of it really would have phased me except that it came from Brad Wilcox.  I guess he didn’t get the memo that this kind of rhetoric is not kosher anymore.
 

[JustAnAustralian]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

He was introduced at every fireside we have on record as a member of the Young Men's presidency. 

Because he IS a member of the General YM Presidency.  That doesn't mean that the reason he was there was because of his calling as 2nd counsellor in the General YM Presidency. According ttribe on page 15 he's been giving this talk for 18 years.  

On 2/10/2022 at 2:36 AM, ttribe said:

Yes. According to David Bokovoy, he heard Brad Wilcox give this same talk over and over again for at least 18 years. This wasn't a one-time error on Wilcox's part; this is his pattern and his set of beliefs.

That's long before he was in the General YM Presidency.  

If he's been giving it for that long, to me it's more likely that the talk in question is one he likes to give, and local leaders want to get speakers that youth seem to like. John Bytheway is another person youth seem to like, but as was pointed out, he has some of the same ideas. Maybe youth actually like this.🤷‍♂️

Edited February 11, 2022 by JustAnAustralian

[kimpearson]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of the central themes of the Book of Mormon is the utility of purveying outrage and preaching to people that they have been wronged. I strongly suspect it's one reason (of many!) why we need the text so much in our day -- to help us recognise these phenomena ... and the risks associated with them.

Please show me where this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me all the conference talks indicating this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me the lesson manuals indicating this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me the books by general authorities indicating this is a central theme of the Book of Mormon.  Show me the scripture references that point this out as a central theme.  Especially point out the specific references indicating that outrage over false doctrine taught by a member of the Church is wrong.  I am sure you won't mention that nasty scene where someone preaching false doctrine was called out for it and got so mad they smote the person expressing outrage with a sword and killed him.  I don't remember the Book of Mormon saying that murder was justified because the person murdered was outraged and angry over what the church member was teaching.

[kimpearson]

4 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Because he IS a member of the General YM Presidency.  That doesn't mean that the reason he was there was because of his calling as 2nd counsellor in the General YM Presidency. According ttribe on page 15 he's been giving this talk for 18 years.  

That's long before he was in the General YM Presidency.  

If he's been giving it for that long, to me it's more likely that the talk in question is one he likes to give, and local leaders want to get speakers that youth seem to like. John Bytheway is another person youth seem to like, but as was pointed out, he has some of the same ideas. Maybe youth actually like this.🤷‍♂️

And your point is?   Are you saying we shouldn't really be upset because Brad is nobody important and since he has been saying it for a long time, what he said is OK?  Are you saying what he said is OK because maybe the youth actually like what he said?  I am really struggling to understand just what you are trying to say about the talk.

[JustAnAustralian]

49 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

And your point is? 

My point is that people need to stop trying to lump blame on the upper church hierarchy simply because Brad is giving the talk at locally organised devotionals that apparently Brad always gives at locally organised devotionals. 

49 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Are you saying we shouldn't really be upset because Brad is nobody important and since he has been saying it for a long time, what he said is OK? 

No I'm saying it's not the upper church hierarchy's fault that someone popular with youth gets asked to give youth devotionals.

49 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

Are you saying what he said is OK because maybe the youth actually like what he said? 

The youth like Brad and John, so it shouldn't be surprised that Brad and John get asked to speak. Whether the contents are ok is a different matter.

49 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I am really struggling to understand just what you are trying to say about the talk.

I'm not talking about the talk, I'm talking about the speaker.

 

• If/when Brad gets released as YM 2C, it's not likely to change the fact that he apparently has youth appeal.
• If Brad is fired from BYU or resigns, I doubt most youth will actually care. Very few will be doing ancient languages anyway, so won't have him giving lectures on it.
• None of the things he said appear to me to rise to the level of apostasy, so I doubt he there will be any church sanctions, so the youth opinion won't change

The same general ideas apply to John. 

Stake leaders are going to try and get people that have youth appeal to speak at youth devotionals. If Brad has appeal, I don't see him suddenly no longer being asked.

Edited February 11, 2022 by JustAnAustralian
typos