Expectations of a prophet…

[Teancum]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

Topic gets brought up in relation to lots of subjects as well as being repeatedly addressed itself, but this is new to me and thought others might be interested:

https://www.keitherekson.com/2022/02/expectations-of-a-prophet/?

 Video and/or transcript available 

 

Here is a test as to whether or not the article is accurate.  What happened after President Hinckley made his more than one earring remarks?  What did Elder Bednar talk about when he referred to this by giving a story about an RM who broke of an engagement with a girl that had two earrings?

[Fether]

37 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I am not sure I understand your comment.  Can you clarify?

The idea that people leave the church because of unreasonable expectations of Prophets is somewhat built on the premise that the church is actually true. So it is expected that anyone who doesn’t believe the church is true would reject this idea

[LoudmouthMormon]

13 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

If this is really why people are leaving, it seems like an easy fix. The church has hours of dedicated time each week to correct the problem of “unrealistic” expectations. Right? 

Indeed.  In my personal experience, it's called Gospel Principles, Gospel Essentials, Elder's Quorum, temple prep classes, marriage and family relations class.  I've heard plenty of 2nd hand accounts from RS and YW.  I'm not claiming anything is perfect or superior.  I am claiming personal experience, in these settings, with many such topics:
- Adam/God, what was taught, why we figure it's wrong.
- The "Black priesthood ban", what we thought then, what we think now, who did what, what we regret, what we double down on.
- Prophetic infallibility, and how it doesn't exist.
- The proper role of political discourse in church (basically, it doesn't belong there, and when it erupts from passionate members, we should at least strive for a balance in presenting other opinions)

I personally taught the Gospel Essentials lesson on marriage to a group that included a perpetually unmarried guy, a guy going through a traumatic divorce, an old spinster, a rebellious youth, and a loudmouthed recent convert who brought a lot of her prior baptist beliefs with her.   I had us all visualize the perfect family ideal situation, as taught by the church.  A family photo showing a righteous matriarch and patriarch, presiding in kindly righteousness over their 7 kids, and 28.3 grandkids, where everyone was fully active in their callings and community, all the husbands were returned missionaries, all the wives had graduated BYU with their child early development degrees, and all the grandkids played a musical instrument.  I asked people to raise their hands if they came from such a family.  After the laughter died down, I said that I did, and I proceeded to display some of my extended family's skeletons - divorce, abuse, hidden adultery, etc.   I asked the question "Why on earth, will most of us so lamentably far from this ideal, does the church choose to inflict such a painful and unattainable goal on us?  We spent the rest of the lesson answering it together.  There were good answers.

I personally know many folks who have left the church.  Zero of them had put much effort into learning church history or doctrine.  I absolutely know there are many who have (including a few on this board), it's just that I've never known any IRL. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I am claiming personal experience, in these settings, with many such topics:
- Adam/God, what was taught, why we figure it's wrong.

Just picking the first of your list. Can you point to a church lesson (designed to be taught in a class) where this is discussed? 

[MrShorty]

1 hour ago, rchorse said:

"Follow the prophet, but be careful he might get it wrong once in a while" is nearly impossible to communicate without undermining all confidence in any church leadership.

I agree that this seems nearly impoosible. However, I would also say that the Church must somehow figure out how to communicate exactly that -- Follow the fallible prophet, and here's what you ought to do when the prophet might be wrong (because he sometimes is), and so on and so forth. We Latter-day Saints used to be all about "Truth" (capital T), but it sometimes feels like we are putting loyalty (or something like it, not sure what word to use here) to the Church is more important than our quest for discovering God's truth.

1 hour ago, rchorse said:

What organization on the planet teaches regularly and emphasizes the fallibility of its leadership? It seems a sure way to weaken and even potentially destroy an organization. 

I recently ran across a podcast episode from someone over at Community of Christ that talks a little about how they handle the fallibility of leadership and how they deal with dissenting voices (about a decade ago, they actually formulated an official document that outlines how they want to handle dissenting voices). Many among our most conservative would like to emphasize how the CoC is in decline (unlike our holier, Brighamite selves), but I have found some very interesting ideas and principles in how a different branch of the restoration handles their prophets and truth and how we come to know what we know. Again, I would suggest that, yes it is difficult to regularly teach and emphasize the fallibility of our leadership, but our commitment to coming to know God's will seems to require that we figure out how to teach and emphasize this.

 

[LoudmouthMormon]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Just picking the first of your list. Can you point to a church lesson (designed to be taught in a class) where this is discussed? 

You're the guy employed by the church, working in their translation department, yes?  I bow to your superior knowledge of what's in our curriculum.  I stand by my personal experiences, occurring over 2 decades, in 3 different church buildings, being taught in class, by the teachers called to teach the class.   Again:

Quote

- Adam/God, what was taught, why we figure it's wrong.
- The "Black priesthood ban", what we thought then, what we think now, who did what, what we regret, what we double down on.
- Prophetic infallibility, and how it doesn't exist.
- The proper role of political discourse in church (basically, it doesn't belong there, and when it erupts from passionate members, we should at least strive for a balance in presenting other opinions)

[and my cool story about the lesson I personally gave on marriage]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's an awful lot of "follow the spirit as you seek to teach your class" stuff in our curriculum, past and present.  Yes?

Edited February 7, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Excellent details are available from FAIR at https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2018/05/31/elder-bruce-r-mcconkies-witness-of-the-1978-revelation-on-the-priesthood

Thanks.  Should have known.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

22 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

You're the guy employed by the church, working in their translation department, yes? 

You have me confused with @Dan McClellan and I’m honored (but I’m sure he would be horrified!). I’m just a lowly exmormon named John. 

22 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

 I stand by my personal experiences, occurring over 2 decades, in 3 different church buildings, being taught in class, by the teachers called to teach the class. 
 

And if the problem is incorrect expectations, and the church has no official curriculum that they consistently teach to correct those expectations, then certainly creating it would be an easy fix. 

22 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there's an awful lot of "follow the spirit as you seek to teach your class" stuff in our curriculum, past and present.  Yes?

I personally have heard both this as well as don’t stray too far from manual. Nevertheless, if the church actually wants this stuff taught in a meaningful consistent way, they have the means and ability to do so. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

The line comes from me attempting to put into words the messages I have received in my life.

And what specific mistakes have we learned from? Please tell me which events in church history we’re mistakes because The Church, as an organization, hasn’t come out and said what is a mistake and what isn’t.

Perhaps I am wrong, please share with me church published articles that list out mistakes that previous leaders have made.

What come to mind immediately are the mistakes documented in Saints 1 and 2 -- these volumes are full of them. They may be described with synonyms to "mistake," but then again, maybe the word "mistake" is used -- that is my recollection, as fallible as it is. Typically these accounts include lessons learned, and I was impressed with the candor.

It was only important to me to point out that the policies concerning Blacks and children of LGBTQ+ parents are not good examples of mistakes, and I explained why. If it is important to you that you are wrong (or right) on these or the broader principle, I am not your go-to guy!

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Teancum said:

It is always intriguing to me when I see a response like this.  It is almost like the true believer relishes this so called winnowing process. It also seems rather prideful and arrogant to me.  It seems the true believer is saying " Well I am special and more spiritually mature than you because I had the proper view of (inset whatever doctrine, historical issue, etc that is being discussed) than you did.  It does not matter the topic.  The apostate is always at fault.  We took things to literally. We did not really understands the nature of prophets and had the wrong expectations, just like the article that is the topic of this thread says.  Truly this is a mind control attribute at its finest.  It keep the true believer safe and comfortable and paints the apostate as always somehow flawed even when they were true believers as well.

But that is just the point:  People project their own prejudices and biases on whatever others and their churches (synagogues, mosques, etc.) that they see.  Everyone feels compelled to put the hex on others whom they do not understand.  No real effort is made to understand.  We are dealing with humans after all.  And humans are very flawed and messy, even at their best.  Hard to get anything coherent from any of them.

We all need reality therapy, Teancum, including you.  Pretending that we do not live in the real world just won't cut it.  Cause the real world can be very harsh and unforgiving.  In the real world, nobody's safe.

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Perhaps you are not acquainted with how prophets are "selected"

First, one is called from a vast number of "Seventies" - a reference to 70 disciples who were followers of Christ.  These men all have had vast experience in church leadership, coming up through the ranks having been Mission presidents, temple presidents, stake presidents, university presidents etc - all of these positions might be compared to Catholic bishops, archbishops and Cardinals.

slight correction: There is no requirement to be a seventy before being called as an apostle. Most have been since the First Quorum of the Seventy was reconstituted in the 70s but Nelson, Oaks, and Bednar never served as Seventies.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Moneymaking said:

This right here (revelation some no doubt didn’t want to receive) is a great point.

I expect The Prophet not to select racists to be apostles, prophets, Seers  and revelators. Was there really no one better qualified or righteous? This leads me to believe Jesus isn’t really inspiring these choices if that many ( much less any) are slipping through the cracks. Says a lot for the whole discernment and inspiration thing. 

You might want to reflect on the apostles Jesus chose there in Galilee when he turned 30.  What a bunch of losers.  Peter denied him thrice, and he could not accept the will of God when confronted by fellow apostle Paul.  And how did Judas get into the Twelve?  He sold his master for 30 pieces of silver.

Why would God select a petulant and disobedient prophet like Jonah?

Why do we read in the Bible, again and again, about godly men who are so deeply flawed?  How could David, the Lord's anointed and beloved by God, end up committing adultery and murder?  "Was there really no one better qualified or righteous?"

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Fether said:

?

Here from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Quote

Philosophical proponents of progress assert that the human condition has improved over the course of history and will continue to improve. Doctrines of progress first appeared in 18th-century Europe and epitomize the optimism of that time and place. Belief in progress flourished in the 19th century. While skeptics of progress did exist alongside its supporters from the beginning, it was not until the 20th century that theorists backed away en masse from the notion. Many 20th-century thinkers rejected the notion of progress after horrendous events such as the two World Wars, the Holocaust, and the use of nuclear weaponry.   https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/progress/#CriDocPro

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress

and https://www.depts.ttu.edu/westernciv/mc_progress/progress_unit3.php

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Let's start with this creepy song that kids sing from a very young age. The indoctrination starts early:

 

Jews teach their young systematically, but others should not?  Is the very idea of school a good or bad thing?  So "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it" (Prov. 22:6) is basically "creepy" and wrong?

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Yes I expect this sort of gaslighting from you and others here.  Apologists excel at it.

So far as I can tell, you and the apologists are incapable of accurately reflecting on anything.  You deeply fear facing reality.  Too harsh and unfriendly territory.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Nothing you said disagrees with Ed Kimball and your post does nothing to refute the fact that Elder McConkie (despite your claim to the contrary) held on to the racist “folklore” doctrine well past giving the statement you quoted. 

My interpretation does differ from your and Ed Kimball's.  You got that right.  I read the same text you did, and just read the whole speech again yesterday.   I see no reason to alter my understanding of what he said.  Reminds me of how we all read the same Scriptural texts and come out with differing interpretations.  This is part of the good old "I'm right, your wrong" miasma.  Most people have great difficulty reflecting on that problem.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Who, if I'm not mistaken, was never excommunicated?

Yes.  That is a deeply hidden issue, and I cannot confirm it.  After the incident was disclosed publicly, the President of the Church ended the existence of the Presiding Patriarch position.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Apostle Bruce McConkie (and brother Brigham) was on the record of stating priesthood ordination wouldn’t happen before the second coming. Then it did. He admitted to the bare minimum. 

McConkie said "Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."  Doesn't sound minimal to me.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Fether said:

Which is why the illusion that is indirectly given to the general populace of saints will one day be toppled and we will talk about it more openly. Just like how we talk about these controversial topics more openly today than we did in decades past

The only Latter-day Saints who discuss this openly today are professional historians.  I see no evidence that the myth of progress is real.

[Fether]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The only Latter-day Saints who discuss this openly today are professional historians.  I see no evidence that the myth of progress is real.

I must have miss something. I’m not suggesting the myth of progress is real

[Robert F. Smith]

34 minutes ago, Fether said:

I must have miss something. I’m not suggesting the myth of progress is real

You claimed an improvement or more openness in discussions of issues, which is a claim of progress.  The suggestion is only a surface impression.  Progress is a myth.

[Fether]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You claimed an improvement or more openness in discussions of issues, which is a claim of progress.  The suggestion is only a surface impression.  Progress is a myth.

Ummm… things have progressed on all sorts of matters. I’m not saying our nature is becoming better. But societal norms have definitely progressed to a point where topics of sex aren’t so taboo, we talk more freely about issues in the church, and there have been large strides in dropping shame focused teachings

[randy]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes.  That is a deeply hidden issue, and I cannot confirm it.  After the incident was disclosed publicly, the President of the Church ended the existence of the Presiding Patriarch position.

Bro. Smith....I thought that Patriarch Eldred G. Smith was the Presiding Patriarch of the Church when that position ended.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

After the incident was disclosed publicly, the President of the Church ended the existence of the Presiding Patriarch position.

Actually, Eldred G. Smith was called as presiding patriarch after this release.

[2BizE]

6 hours ago, Teancum said:

The LDS Church will never be without a prophet and that prophet will never lead the church astray, a member of the church's First Presidency told a regional conference this week.

Gordon B. Hinckley, first counselor in the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, on Sunday responded to a paper presented at the Sunstone Symposium in Salt Lake City two weeks ago.In the paper, Mormon feminist housewife Janice Allred said statements by President Hinckley that God never would allow the church to be led astray do not have a scriptural basis.

"She can present her paper until doomsday," President Hinckley said at a Tri-Stake Regional Conference at church-owned Ricks College, but God will see to it that the church will not be led astray.

Report ad

In her paper, Allred said, "The scriptures do not give any unconditional promises that the church will never fail, although there are some conditional ones. The condition of the promises is obedience to God, not obedience to leaders."

People who have been taught to accept anything their leaders say without seeking spiritual confirmation are "easy to deceive," Allred said.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only church whose members sing, "We Thank Thee, O God, For A Prophet," President Hinckley told those gathered from the church's Ashton, Driggs and St. Anthony stakes.

Following that prophet is the way to salvation, President Hinckley said. "Our peace, safety and salvation lie in following the prophet."

President Hinckley, who has worked with eight LDS presidents, said there was never a question among the church's apostles who would succeed President Ezra Taft Benson after he died May 29.

"We knew what to do," President Hinckley said, when the remaining 14 apostles met in the Salt Lake Temple after President Benson's death.

The quorum elected its senior member, President Howard W. Hunter, as the church's 14th president and prophet. President Hinckley said he and the other apostles "knew the Lord sustained (President Hunter's) life through a terrifying sickness for a reason."

President Hunter nearly died in May 1993 of complications from gall bladder surgery and was hospitalized as recently as January with an undisclosed ailment.

https://www.deseret.com/1994/9/1/19128430/prophet-won-t-lead-us-astray-counselor-says

 

 

I believe that prophets have led us astray from BY to President Kimball regarding black members and the priesthood and the temple.