Expectations of a prophet…

[CV75]

1 hour ago, MrShorty said:

I am not sure if the "discussion along the way to unanimity" is speaking into the short term discussions in the days/months before OD2 or longer term. Choosing to see it as a longer term view, it seems that those discussions leading up to OD2 took years to decades. If it takes hours or days or weeks for Zion to dismiss false traditions in favor of new revelations, I would agree that seems like what I would expect from a prophetic discernment process. When it takes years and decades for Zion to dismiss its false traditions, that feels to me like a discernment problem. Maybe this comes back to the title of the thread (and brother Erekson's talk/fireside) but what kind of expectation should we have for our leadership? Perhaps my expectation that prophets/apostles should overcome false tradition in days or months but not decades is too high??

Another thing that I see in a decades long process to overcome false tradition is that the process seems to strongly favor a conservative approach, which I think creates a real problem for progressive members. If it is reasonable to expect that leadership needs years and decades to overcome false traditions, what is a progressive member supposed to do? This seems like a big part of the cognitive dissonance that progressives experience (and that oftentimes drives them out of the Church). In hindsight, there were many progressive members in the mid 20th century believing that the ban should be changed, but they had to sit on the margins waiting for Revelation to trickle through the stubbornness of the conservative contingent that didn't want things to change.

Expectations is a powerful concept here. It seems that the discussion suggests that one should expect conservatism to dominate the Church. One should expect change -- no matter how false the traditions that block the change -- should be slow as one cannot expect members or leaders to overcome their false traditions easily or timely. Maybe I just have a hard time reconciling these kinds of conservative expectations with a Church that claims to be led by revelation.

Years or decades, the principle is the same. I think expectations on timing inevitably vary by individual, and when these widely varying expectations are to unite in the exercise of common consent, I take that to pertain to the exercise of the restored keys (sustaining the leaders, the canon, Church articles and covenants, etc.). I don’t judge anyone’s expectations, especially given that the tradition is false in retrospect.

I would add that holding up today’s standard is more an indicator of accepting a newer tradition, not an innate, advanced capacity for discernment among the population. Otherwise, the improved environment would facilitate more forgiving behavior than knee-jerk calls to cancel. Spiritually more progressive (I read into that “advanced”) individuals would have greater spiritual wherewithal to both influence and suffer long, like Jesus did. It is instructive to see how they behave in councils involving their more conservative colleagues. Zion has a place for both, and for everyone in-between.

I do not see cognitive dissonance as a spiritual phenomenon. I see the concept as having been co-opted by unhappy saints to counter the intellectual approach taken by apologists with contrasting intellectualism. By focusing too heavily on that, as a scholar might on his defense, they lose grounding spiritual opportunities. So, when either’s expectations about our leaders are not met, they falter spiritually. I believe putting the focus back on Christ helps with a loss of faith.

Politically/socially conservative and progressive people certainly have a place in the Church and her leadership, and together with the Spirit sort out that which moves the Church forward in councils.

[CV75]

39 minutes ago, Thinking said:

How do we know if the prophet is still leading people to exaltation and has not created another Great Apostasy?

Give it your best shot.

[rchorse]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

 

 

How do we know if the prophet is still leading people to exaltation and has not created another Great Apostasy?

Luckily it's not my problem. But if I pray about it and get personal revelation that he's off the rails, I'll stop doing what he says. Anything else is out of my hands. I don't think it's my place to convince others of a fallen prophet.

[ttribe]

On 2/8/2022 at 7:52 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

Yes.  I left shortly after declining to serve a mission, and was inactive and unbelieving for around 6 years.  

 

Yes.  Both here on line, interacting with folks like you, and IRL.  Random acquaintances, friends, peers, co-workers, family members.  

 

I believe you are describing your experience accurately and truthfully.  Do you believe me?

I believe you, but I'm struggling to determine how you can conclude that "most people" who leave do so for the reasons you stated. Additionally, I do think it is a very different experience to leave in your youth than to do so later, but that's probably a discussion for much later.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, Thinking said:

 

 

How do we know if the prophet is still leading people to exaltation and has not created another Great Apostasy?

I know.

How does a collective we know? I have no idea.

[James 1 5]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I know.

How does a collective we know? I have no idea.

When everyone in that collective we knows.

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited February 17, 2022 by Tacenda

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Believe fervently in a God who answers prayers, but content yourself with nothing more than good feelings here and there.

Disagree big time here. 
 

Lots of unspoken assumptions that I also disagree with.  That may be her experience, but it is nothing like mine.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Disagree big time here. 
 

Lots of unspoken assumptions that I also disagree with.  That may be her experience, but it is nothing like mine.

Great. Maybe I'll just delete, don't want to hurt feelings. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Great. Maybe I'll just delete, don't want to hurt feelings. 

Didn’t hurt my feelings as at all.  Why would it?  She is wrong to assume her own experience and perhaps others she knows is somehow the standard of our faith though.  It is as wrong as it would be for myself or others who have experienced revelation or don’t assume God never changing means the Church should never change to discount her personal experience as invalid…though I do think she has some unfortunate interpretations of doctrine.  But my feelings typically aren’t hurt anytime someone is wrong.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Calm

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Saw this post today and it sums up some of my feelings. The woman wrote it a while back after starting a faith crisis and posted on reddit awhile back.

You must believe in Mormonism without really believing in Mormonism. You must believe in angels while being highly skeptical of anyone who claims to have seen one.

Believe fervently in a God who answers prayers, but content yourself with nothing more than good feelings here and there.

You must believe in Moroni's promise while being satisfied that you never received its fulfillment because you've always known it was true. Believe in revelation without ever having heard one.

Believe the apostles speak with Christ without ever expecting them to say so. Believe the priesthood can heal while excusing all the times it doesn't. Believe the Holy Ghost answers all questions without thinking about all the times It hasn't.

Believe God would never lead you astray while forgetting all the times an answer to prayer led you astray. Believe the voices in Nephi's head came from God while backing away from anyone listening to the voices in their head.

Believe in a prophet without hearing any prophecies. Believe God communicates to the entire world through his prophet without expecting the prophet to address the most pressing global issues.

Believe the Holy Ghost is consistent in his messages without expecting the claimed revelation of the membership or even prophets to be in any way consistent.

Believe paying tithing will open the windows of heaven without expecting faithful tithe payers to be spared from financial hardship, job loss, or bankruptcy.

Believe God can inspire your life and ask you to do hard things while not following sound conventional wisdom in all important life and business decisions. Believe there are millions of spirits waiting for bodies and wanting to come down to the home of a faithful LDS family, while only having as many children as you can comfortably afford financially.

Believe God never changes while enthusiastically embracing every change in doctrine and policy from the church. Believe the church does not treat women unequally, while happily endorsing every little step it makes towards greater equality.

Believe the current prophets will never lead the church astray while also acknowledging that past prophets made mistakes.

Believe that of all religions, the LDS church has the only valid answer to the problem of evil, but never bother to figure out what it is.

Believe in the law of consecration while decrying socialism. Believe church leadership should be immune from accountability that you expect of every other organization in your life. Believe that when God tells you to go down the wrong path he just wanted you to be sure once you got back on the right path.

This was written by someone who was having a faith crisis and was angry at the church and it's members and it shows.  While I'm sure it matches her feelings (or matched them, I guess, since it was written a while ago), it does not at all speak for members who aren't having a faith crisis and aren't angry.

I get so annoyed at people who embrace doubt and live in anger towards the church and then believe they can speak for those who are still believing.  It's no different than people who are still believing thinking they can speak for those who don't anymore. 

If it's wrong to do that then this kind of stuff is wrong too!

[Tacenda]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This was written by someone who was having a faith crisis and was angry at the church and it's members and it shows.  While I'm sure it matches her feelings (or matched them, I guess, since it was written a while ago), it does not at all speak for members who aren't having a faith crisis and aren't angry.

I get so annoyed at people who embrace doubt and live in anger towards the church and then believe they can speak for those who are still believing.  It's no different than people who are still believing thinking they can speak for those who don't anymore. 

If it's wrong to do that then this kind of stuff is wrong too!

I didn't know it would cause strife. Didn't delete it fast enough, boy you and Calm are speed readers. How about this positive post by Jana Reiss in Religion News that goes with the topic perhaps.

https://religionnews.com/2022/01/18/the-top-10-changes-president-russell-m-nelson-has-made-in-the-lds-church/?fbclid=IwAR3hLhP8MDKfXpoai_02hJ1JRWoEmwi2FMt3qOfppuvy0b5Hi2chr6dHqZU

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I didn't know it would cause strife. Didn't delete it fast enough, boy you and Calm are speed readers. How about this positive post by Jana Reiss in Religion News that goes with the topic perhaps.

https://religionnews.com/2022/01/18/the-top-10-changes-president-russell-m-nelson-has-made-in-the-lds-church/?fbclid=IwAR3hLhP8MDKfXpoai_02hJ1JRWoEmwi2FMt3qOfppuvy0b5Hi2chr6dHqZU

I saw that Teancum started a thread on this.  I always appreciate people who can admit to positives as well as negatives in any organization.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Prophets throughout scripture can been in many cases “white hot messes”, to quote Iron Man. However, despite their personal shortcomings, they are able to do great things, revel great truths, and advance the purposes of God. God only calls flawed men and women, because their is no other kind.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Bill “Papa” Lee