New Church Pamphlet on Islam

[katherine the great]

55 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So you don’t like Judaism either?

Are there modern examples of apostates from Judaism being killed?

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, James 1 5 said:

Yes, exactly, why would they.  They would not necessarily.  They could reasonably think of their right to vote in society as not related to their religion of Islam.  Just as other women did not think their right to vote was related to their Christian religion

Are you arguing in any way shape or form that women in Islam have equal rights to the men?

[James 1 5]

3 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Are you arguing in any way shape or form that women in Islam have equal rights to the men?

No.  Women in Islam have the rights the lawmakers in Islam believe they should have, just as the men do, but those are rights are not equal and are not the same. And many men and women in Islam are okay with that.  Some do not like it, many do not like it, but many are okay with it even though some would like some things to be better than they are now.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, James 1 5 said:

No.  Women in Islam have the rights the lawmakers in Islam believe they should have, just as the men do, but those are rights are not equal and are not the same. And many men and women in Islam are okay with that.  Some do not like it, many do not like it, but many are okay with it even though some would like some things to be better than they are now.

If a woman wants to live like that and is happy with it then I consider that her business. I personally do not support religions that extend fewer rights to women than men. I understand that there are many flavors of Islam but I don’t like the majority of what I’ve seen as it pertains to women’s rights.

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I personally do not support religions that extend fewer rights to women than men.

In the view of many, you belong to one ...

[Rain]

10 hours ago, rongo said:

Germany has a large Muslim population. We were limited, as we weren't allowed to teach Iraqis, Iranians, Lebanese, or Syrians (or Israelis). Pakistani graduate students frequently ordered the Book of Mormon in Urdu, and they were good teaching appointments (interested in the Book of Mormon, gratified that we aren't trinitiarian/idolators  , and we learned a lot about the Koran). I've shared this before, but the third in command in Kurdistan was baptized right before I was transferred into my last city. He shouldn't have been (the sisters misunderstood where he was from), but he was a very good convert (good German, integrated well with the ward, solidly converted). Because of who he was, he received visitor all the time --- including people "whom you would call terrorists." When they came, all of his scriptures and gospel art pictures were put away. He told us to stay, but that we were simply American students. He told us that they can never learn he was baptized, or "you are dead, I am dead, and my family back at home is dead." This was in 1996, and the Hamburg Cell of course struck in 2001. I used to like teasing him that I couldn't find Kurdistan on a map ("It's right there --- by Mosul." "That says it's still part of Iraq."). 

It was unsettling to get invited in by a Muslim family with no German or English, and see large pictures of heavily-armed women covered from head to toe in black all over the living room walls. 

 

I think this has changed.  I don't know about those specific countries, but the missionaries have now been teaching refugees in Arabic in Germany.  My son's best friend spent some time in Germany on his mission (4 years ago?).  His dad was Lebanese and had joined the church here. The missionary taught people and used skype to have his dad translate into Arabic for those he was teaching.

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I think this has changed.

I'm always confused when people talk about this like it was some kind of universal Church policy. I strongly suspect it's just random mission presidents creating 'policy' based on a bit of Church 'folklore' they heard once. I served my mission in America in the 1990s, and if we found interested Muslims, we just taught them.

In Indonesia, we wouldn't have many members if it weren't for those who've converted from Islam. 

A few years ago, one of my Muslim friends here expressed interest in being baptised and met with the missionaries. Informed by their mission president, their only concern was that he was a) on a temporary visa and b) would be returning to an Islamic state that doesn't have freedom of religious choice. Once he became a permanent resident here, that concern evaporated. At this point, he hasn't yet joined the Church, but his sister has.

[2BizE]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

If a woman wants to live like that and is happy with it then I consider that her business. I personally do not support religions that extend fewer rights to women than men. I understand that there are many flavors of Islam but I don’t like the majority of what I’ve seen as it pertains to women’s rights.

Like priesthood power?

[katherine the great]

2 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Like priesthood power?

Superficially maybe. It goes far beyond that. 

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

In the view of many, you belong to one ...

No doubt. 🙂

[Rain]

28 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm always confused when people talk about this like it was some kind of universal Church policy.

I didn't get that impression with rongo.  I'm wondering if it had something to do with most Muslims at the time might have been refugees and some kind of legal thing with that?  I do know an awful lot of refugees try to make it to Germany. 

28 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I strongly suspect it's just random mission presidents creating 'policy' based on a bit of Church 'folklore' they heard once. I served my mission in America in the 1990s, and if we found interested Muslims, we just taught them.

In Indonesia, we wouldn't have many members if it weren't for those who've converted from Islam. 

A few years ago, one of my Muslim friends here expressed interest in being baptised and met with the missionaries. Informed by their mission president, their only concern was that he was a) on a temporary visa and b) would be returning to an Islamic state that doesn't have freedom of religious choice. Once he became a permanent resident here, that concern evaporated. At this point, he hasn't yet joined the Church, but his sister has.

 

[Islander]

5 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I don't have to support Islam. I just have to love my Muslim neighbours/friends, recognise the good present in their lives and faith, and defend their rights to worship how, where or what they may.

I agree with you. I see no reason to develop such material in order to accomplish what? The similarities between Christianity and Islam are limited to the naming of some biblical characters in the Koran. Their historical context and roles in the story line are COMPLETELY different and bare no relationship to Christianity whatsoever. Muslims are well aware of what "the people of the book" believe. After all, the Koran borrows heavily from the Bible and other literary sources.

"Allah" is generic (the god), distant, impersonal, unknowable. He is the creator of all things but NOT our Father, neither the Father of Christ. Allah has no associations, relationships or love with or for anyone. He is arbitrary, allows for lying to deceive and defeat the enemy. At the end, a Muslim can never be sure if he/she will be saved given the variable and capricious nature of Allah. 

The most obvious difference is that Christians believe Jesus is God made man, but the Quran is so opposed to this belief that it condemns Jesus worshipers to Hell ([Qur’an] 5.72. Muslims do not recognize the Old or the New Testament. They judge the Bible muharraf, or “falsified.” So, from that standpoint, we are nothing but apostates with no other choice to repent and convert to Islam, short of that we are fair game and marked for death. Do not be deceived by the fact that the law deters them, especially in the West, from enforcing Shariah. In the Middle East that would be our fate.

I fail to see the aim of the pamphlet other than political. The BoM has been available in Arabic since at least 1990. I saw a copy in Egypt in 1998 printed in SLC and dated 1995. 

 

[Rajah Manchou]

I can't find the reference right now, but didn't Chris and Duane Johnson find that the Book of Mormon had more textual similarities to a Koran published in the early 1820s than any other text?

Edited February 1, 2022 by Rajah Manchou

[Hamba Tuhan]

24 minutes ago, Islander said:

I agree with you ...

The similarities between Christianity and Islam are limited to the naming of some biblical characters in the Koran.

I fail to see the aim of the pamphlet other than political.

Clearly, you don't  agree with me then.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I'm always confused when people talk about this like it was some kind of universal Church policy. I strongly suspect it's just random mission presidents creating 'policy' based on a bit of Church 'folklore' they heard once. I

 

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I didn't get that impression with rongo.  I'm wondering if it had something to do with most Muslims at the time might have been refugees and some kind of legal thing with that?  I do know an awful lot of refugees try to make it to Germany. 

It was Church policy for Germany at the time (ca. 30 years ago). My first mission president was Charles Dahlquist (later Church young men's president), and he was connected with the American consulate in Germany. I'm sure it has changed in the interim as conditions have changed. Keep in mind, the Hamburg cell was behind 9-11, and that was my mission. Germany has always been a focal point for Islamic immigration, and was perhaps a more sensitive area than other countries. 

My son freely and openly was able to teach Muslims from whichever country (one of his baptisms was an Iraqi who served in the army under Sadam Hussein). 

The policy as to Israelis was because of the Jerusalem Center. Israel demanded reassurances that it would be not the center for proselyting among Israelis, and the agreement extended outside of Israel. 

[BlueDreams]

16 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Nothing comes to mind. I don’t support any religion that sanctions death to “apostates”. 

 

17 hours ago, katherine the great said:

To speak frankly: As a woman I cannot support Islam. 

Speaking frankly: I struggle with the idea of defining a religion with nearly 2 billion followers by its worse interpretations and manifestations of said beliefs. I also am not sure what “support” of Islam even means. I can’t say that I support any religion much outside my own (at least in the way I define supporting my own faith community). That’s different from trying to seek understanding and respecting the good in other’s faiths. Or finding common ground/beliefs. It doesn’t have to include turning a blind eye to concerns…but it also doesn’t mean promoting it’s biggest issues as the most definitive attributes of a religion. I don’t enjoy it when people do it to ours; I won’t do it to others. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Are there modern examples of apostates from Judaism being killed?

No, but the law is still on the books. Christians have similar incidents in their history.

I can see being annoyed at any faith that kills apostates now but if you want a general faith that has never killed apostates that is much harder to find.

[halconero]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Speaking frankly: I struggle with the idea of defining a religion with nearly 2 billion followers by its worse interpretations and manifestations of said beliefs. I also am not sure what “support” of Islam even means. I can’t say that I support any religion much outside my own (at least in the way I define supporting my own faith community). That’s different from trying to seek understanding and respecting the good in other’s faiths. Or finding common ground/beliefs. It doesn’t have to include turning a blind eye to concerns…but it also doesn’t mean promoting it’s biggest issues as the most definitive attributes of a religion. I don’t enjoy it when people do it to ours; I won’t do it to others. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

Co-signed with pretty much everything here.

Theological conceptions aside, I'm not sure from a sociological perspective that it's even correct to refer to one Islam, rather than Islams, just as my old religion prof used to refer to "Christianities."

There are a variety of traditions, theologies, rituals, and beliefs that fall under the umbrella of Islam, but are so distinct from one another that they may as well be distinct faiths except for their histories. You have, on the one end, abhorrent traditions found among the Wahhabis and their militant expressions in the Islamic State, Al Qaeda, or Boko Haram. On the other hand you have the Ahmadis, or breakaway groups that form distinct faiths like the Druze or Bahai, which draw extensively from Islam.

The pamphlet is very good for a number of reasons, but it scratches the surface (as it's meant to do, that surface needs scratching). The people on this board need to dig deeper than the surface or risk making puerile generalizations. As Nehor said, we ourselves have "laws on the books," which have since drawn a variety of commentary and more graceful interpretations or applications. I extend the same grace to those drawing on Muslim faith traditions and identifying as such.

[rodheadlee]

So do you believe Mohammed talked to Gabriel? Do I have that right?

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

So do you believe Mohammed talked to Gabriel? Do I have that right?

I have no idea who Gabriel talks to.

I really don't think Gabriel has to report to me on his conversations with others.  As far as we know all of Gabriel's Conversations have not been revealed. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by Danzo

[strappinglad]

I'm all for building bridges and finding commonalities, but I also remember that not many years ago Christians and Muslims were living peacefully side by side and attending each others weddings and funerals in Bosnia, and in a blink of an eye began burning and killing each other . Some connections are only skin deep and very fragile. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Some connections are only skin deep and very fragile. 

Which is why it behoves us to deepen them.

After I left Jakarta, my former landlord let me know that someone had come to the house and offered the housekeeper a US$100 note to join in an anti-Christian protest. She told the man that she couldn't do that because she had a Christian 'son' -- me!

[halconero]

3 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I'm all for building bridges and finding commonalities, but I also remember that not many years ago Christians and Muslims were living peacefully side by side and attending each others weddings and funerals in Bosnia, and in a blink of an eye began burning and killing each other . Some connections are only skin deep and very fragile. 

I always recommend the work Alberto Alesina and Daron Acemoglu on this - Alesina for social cohesion and Acemoglu on the role of institutions (political, economic, and social) on fostering cooperation between diverse societies.

Ethno-religious factionalism was absolutely a major factor in the Yugoslav Wars. I have often wondered, however, to what extent they were a causal factor or a dependent one. There are strong arguments to be made that fracturing the Yugoslav political institutions at the end of the Cold War are what led to the religious factionalism, not the other way around.

Edited February 2, 2022 by halconero

[halconero]

7 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

So do you believe Mohammed talked to Gabriel? Do I have that right?

I'm not sure if this question was directed at me, but I'm not sure, leaning towards no. I'm not particularly sure how that's relevant though with regards to recognizing the diversity of Islamic faith traditions or understanding the principles that govern each.

[halconero]

20 hours ago, rongo said:

 

It was Church policy for Germany at the time (ca. 30 years ago). My first mission president was Charles Dahlquist (later Church young men's president), and he was connected with the American consulate in Germany. I'm sure it has changed in the interim as conditions have changed. Keep in mind, the Hamburg cell was behind 9-11, and that was my mission. Germany has always been a focal point for Islamic immigration, and was perhaps a more sensitive area than other countries. 

My son freely and openly was able to teach Muslims from whichever country (one of his baptisms was an Iraqi who served in the army under Sadam Hussein). 

The policy as to Israelis was because of the Jerusalem Center. Israel demanded reassurances that it would be not the center for proselyting among Israelis, and the agreement extended outside of Israel. 

The general policy as I understand it currently is that Muslims can be taught and baptized insofar there is no risk they'll be sent back to a country where it is penalized. For example, we could baptize Bosnian and Indian-Muslim students, no problem, even if they intended to go back home. We could not baptize Iranians or Saudis. We actually had one dude in the YSA who attended for 5 years while doing his PhD, who was our physical facilities rep (one of the callings that can be held by a non-member), and was a *de facto* member in every way possible without being baptized.

Edited February 2, 2022 by halconero