sunstoned Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 11 minutes ago, ttribe said: For me, this is especially pronounced if the attorney I am working with, and/or the client, also went to BYU or are LDS. The assumption that the "Mormon Mafia" (as it is affectionately called) in AZ sticks together is difficult to overcome in a court room setting. Mormon Mafia was also a term that was used at Novell years ago. It seemed that many of the mormon managers would stick together and would have each others back. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, sunstoned said: That was my first thought🙂 I was being jocular, of course. But where a typical reader is not apt to be familiar with an organization by its initials, if at all, it’s best to put in a summary sentence what is meant, as in “Gay Advocacy Group Responds to BYU Crackdown on Lighting the Y.” The name of the group, including its abbreviation if need be, can then be written in the body of the post or included in the quote. Edited January 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, kimpearson said: Are you bringing up additional issues to confuse the original point I made? Say what? It was you who brought up tithe paying as though to imply it buys some presumption of privilege in one’s continuing enrollment at BYU. I’m pointing out that even if they pay tithing, many (most?) would-be enrollees are excluded for any of an array of reasons, failure to embrace the law of chastity being only one. To imply, therefore, that one who is expelled for breaching his contact is ill-treated if he (or his parents) had been a tithe payer is an irrelevancy. Edited January 20, 2022 by Scott Lloyd
sunstoned Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I was being jocular, of course. But where a typical reader is not apt to be familiar with an organization by its initials, if at all, it’s best to put in a summary sentence what is meant, as in “Gay Advocacy Group Responds to BYU Crackdown on Lighting the Y.” The name of the group, including its abbreviation if need be, can then be written in the body of the post or included in the quote. Agreed. I consider it a courtesy. A author should not assume too much from his/her audience. I worked in high tech for years, and much of the papers and articles are full of acronyms. For some reason there is seldom a explanation given. Even in my area of expertise I am constantly tracking down information on acronyms authors use. It is very frustrating. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted January 20, 2022 Posted January 20, 2022 59 minutes ago, sunstoned said: Agreed. I consider it a courtesy. A author should not assume too much from his/her audience. I worked in high tech for years, and much of the papers and articles are full of acronyms. For some reason there is seldom a explanation given. Even in my area of expertise I am constantly tracking down information on acronyms authors use. It is very frustrating. In journalism, we are taught (or at least we were when I was in the profession), “When in doubt, spell it out.” It was extremely rare for us to use an acronym or initialism without first giving the full and formal name of the entity. And when we did, it was something extremely common like FBI or TV. When I was the secretary on a school community council, it was my job to take minutes of the meetings. I was constantly getting smacked with arcane acronyms and initialisms. Fortunately, when typing up the minutes later, I could almost always find the full names with Google searches. 1
Tacenda Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 This is sad. https://xtramagazine.com/power/brigham-young-university-lgbtq-rights-217222?fbclid=IwAR2AsTP05c8eAGOreFrEv1ZV5mSVOBapXHxxxRWCyo5m-x6zatu9ZYDszAI
JustAnAustralian Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, 2BizE said: Is a BYU sporting event considered a protest? No. Because a BYU sporting event would be sponsored by BYU. "Demonstration means an event that occurs on University Property that is not sponsored by the university in which two or more people gather to raise awareness about, or express a viewpoint on, an issue or cause. Demonstrations include, but are not limited to, events such as assemblies, marches, memorials, parades, picketing, protests, leafletting, signature gathering, rallies, and sit-ins. Demonstrations also include counterdemonstrations." https://policy.byu.edu/view/demonstration-policy Edited February 3, 2022 by JustAnAustralian spelling 2
teddyaware Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: This is sad. https://xtramagazine.com/power/brigham-young-university-lgbtq-rights-217222?fbclid=IwAR2AsTP05c8eAGOreFrEv1ZV5mSVOBapXHxxxRWCyo5m-x6zatu9ZYDszAI It’s sad that BYU has a long-standing honor code it’s trying to uphold? Why is that sad? A simple solution: Attend one of the thousands of schools where there is no such honor code and where you can do whatever it is you want to do while getting hundreds of congratulatory pats on the back. A question: Do you believe the law of chastity is of God? Edited February 3, 2022 by teddyaware 2
Peacefully Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 11 hours ago, Tacenda said: This is sad. https://xtramagazine.com/power/brigham-young-university-lgbtq-rights-217222?fbclid=IwAR2AsTP05c8eAGOreFrEv1ZV5mSVOBapXHxxxRWCyo5m-x6zatu9ZYDszAI Yes it is:( BYU needs to do better, imho. 1
Peacefully Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, teddyaware said: It’s sad that BYU has a long-standing honor code it’s trying to uphold? Why is that sad? A simple solution: Attend one of the thousands of schools where there is no such honor code and where you can do whatever it is you want to do while getting hundreds of congratulatory pats on the back. A question: Do you believe the law of chastity is of God? The honor code should apply to all equally. If a heterosexual couple can kiss and hold hands without fear of retribution then a gay couple should be able to do the same. Making a different law for the gay couple is putting them in danger from extremists like members of Deznat. This seems so obvious to me, but I’m a simple person. I’ll take it further: If sexual relations outside of marriage is verboten for heterosexual couples then it should also be verboten for gay couples. If the two people are married, whether straight or gay, then the school should stay out of their bedrooms. The more I think about it, the school should stay out of everybody’s bedrooms. Edited February 3, 2022 by Peacefully 3
Popular Post Ragerunner Posted February 3, 2022 Popular Post Posted February 3, 2022 10 hours ago, teddyaware said: It’s sad that BYU has a long-standing honor code it’s trying to uphold? Why is that sad? A simple solution: Attend one of the thousands of schools where there is no such honor code and where you can do whatever it is you want to do while getting hundreds of congratulatory pats on the back. A question: Do you believe the law of chastity is of God? Not sure if you read the article? But if any of the allegations are true this isn’t about an honor code. This is about allowing intimidation, threats and fear to be rewarded by the school. If I was BYU (I am not) I would be much more concerned with right wing extremism that is focused on creating and environment of fear and hate. I really don’t believe this is what Heavenly Father wants BYU to be. 5
Tacenda Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 10 hours ago, teddyaware said: It’s sad that BYU has a long-standing honor code it’s trying to uphold? Why is that sad? A simple solution: Attend one of the thousands of schools where there is no such honor code and where you can do whatever it is you want to do while getting hundreds of congratulatory pats on the back. A question: Do you believe the law of chastity is of God? I was saying what Deznat was doing is sad.
Tacenda Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 23 minutes ago, Ragerunner said: Not sure if you read the article? But if any of the allegations are true this isn’t about an honor code. This is about allowing intimidation, threats and fear to be rewarded by the school. If I was BYU (I am not) I would be much more concerned with right wing extremism that is focused on creating and environment of fear and hate. I really don’t believe this is what Heavenly Father wants BYU to be. 👍😩
Tacenda Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 3 hours ago, Peacefully said: Yes it is:( BYU needs to do better, imho. Hopefully they'll do something to prevent other students from enduring that.
california boy Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, teddyaware said: It’s sad that BYU has a long-standing honor code it’s trying to uphold? Why is that sad? A simple solution: Attend one of the thousands of schools where there is no such honor code and where you can do whatever it is you want to do while getting hundreds of congratulatory pats on the back. A question: Do you believe the law of chastity is of God? Unbelieveable response to what. is happening at BYU. Your post along with the upvotes it received only confirm to me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is no place for someone who is LGBT, Not only should someone who is LGBT should be looking for another university to go to. They should also be looking for another Church to go to. One that actually. follows the teachings of Christ. Your response along with the upvotes and response from BYU about this issue is heard loud and clear. I don't really give out downvotes. I think yours is the first. This kind of stuff makes me so happy I am no longer a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose name is sounding. more like blasphemy against the name of Christ Edited February 3, 2022 by california boy 2
smac97 Posted February 3, 2022 Author Posted February 3, 2022 1 hour ago, california boy said: Unbelieveable response to what. is happening at BYU. Your post along with the upvotes it received only confirm to me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is no place for someone who is LGBT, Not only should someone who is LGBT should be looking for another university to go to. They should also be looking for another Church to go to. You sure work hard to advance this divisive narrative. The Law of Chastity is not secret. It is not hidden. It is not unknown. It is, however, unpopular. It goes against social trends that are erasing sexual ethics to an extreme extent, such that the only touchstone left appears to be consent (and even that one seems to be wobbly). Virtually anything goes. In terms of sheer numbers, there are far more heterosexuals at BYU who struggle with the Law of Chastity. It can be a tough commandment to obey in our increasingly sexualized world. And yet . . . here we are. Expected - commanded even - to obey it. I am grateful that the Church maintains its teachings about the Law of Chastity, which are in turn incorporated into the Honor Code. There is now a huge, screeching, discordant chorus of voices that are essentially variations on Korihor's "if it feels good, do it" brand of hedonism (from Alma 30) : Quote 16 Ye look forward and say that ye see a remission of your sins. But behold, it is the effect of a frenzied mind; and this derangement of your minds comes because of the traditions of your fathers, which lead you away into a belief of things which are not so. 17 And many more such things did he say unto them, telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime. 18 And thus he did preach unto them, leading away the hearts of many, causing them to lift up their heads in their wickedness, yea, leading away many women, and also men, to commit whoredoms—telling them that when a man was dead, that was the end thereof. I am grateful, then, that there is a clear, calm, firm voice speaking and reminding of the commandments of God. This is the collective voice of prophets and apostles who are saying the same things that have been said by past prophets and apostles. "Anything goes" does not work. "If it feels good, do it" does not work. "Whatsoever a man did was no crime" does not work. There is real value in having external sources of wisdom and authority to function as a bulwark against evasion, rationalization, and so on. A man in an unhappy marriage may very well have no feelings, or even acrimonious feelings, for his wife. I get that, but that does not justify or rationalize adultery. A young couple may have strong and real feelings for each other, but that does not justify or rationalize fornication. And on and on and on. The Law of Chastity is, I think, a very important doctrine in the Church. It is, nevertheless, downstream a bit from some of the others. If there was no restoration, if the theophanies and restorations did not happen with Joseph Smith, then there isn't much point in listening to today's prophets and apostles. That said, I still struggle with the alternative paradigms of sexual ethics being bandied about these days. Thanks, -Smac 1
ttribe Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, smac97 said: You sure work hard to advance this divisive narrative. The Law of Chastity is not secret. It is not hidden. It is not unknown. It is, however, unpopular. It goes against social trends that are erasing sexual ethics to an extreme extent, such that the only touchstone left appears to be consent (and even that one seems to be wobbly). Virtually anything goes. In terms of sheer numbers, there are far more heterosexuals at BYU who struggle with the Law of Chastity. It can be a tough commandment to obey in our increasingly sexualized world. And yet . . . here we are. Expected - commanded even - to obey it. I am grateful that the Church maintains its teachings about the Law of Chastity, which are in turn incorporated into the Honor Code. There is now a huge, screeching, discordant chorus of voices that are essentially variations on Korihor's "if it feels good, do it" brand of hedonism (from Alma 30) : I am grateful, then, that there is a clear, calm, firm voice speaking and reminding of the commandments of God. This is the collective voice of prophets and apostles who are saying the same things that have been said by past prophets and apostles. "Anything goes" does not work. "If it feels good, do it" does not work. "Whatsoever a man did was no crime" does not work. There is real value in having external sources of wisdom and authority to function as a bulwark against evasion, rationalization, and so on. A man in an unhappy marriage may very well have no feelings, or even acrimonious feelings, for his wife. I get that, but that does not justify or rationalize adultery. A young couple may have strong and real feelings for each other, but that does not justify or rationalize fornication. And on and on and on. The Law of Chastity is, I think, a very important doctrine in the Church. It is, nevertheless, downstream a bit from some of the others. If there was no restoration, if the theophanies and restorations did not happen with Joseph Smith, then there isn't much point in listening to today's prophets and apostles. That said, I still struggle with the alternative paradigms of sexual ethics being bandied about these days. Thanks, -Smac Indeed, Joseph Smith's commitment to strict Victorian-Era sexual mores is practically legendary. 1
jkwilliams Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 15 minutes ago, smac97 said: The Law of Chastity is not secret. It is not hidden. It is not unknown. Tell that to Emma Smith. Heck, she wasn’t even able to give consent. Some sexual ethics. Sheesh. 4
california boy Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 19 minutes ago, smac97 said: You sure work hard to advance this divisive narrative. The Law of Chastity is not secret. It is not hidden. It is not unknown. It is, however, unpopular. It goes against social trends that are erasing sexual ethics to an extreme extent, such that the only touchstone left appears to be consent (and even that one seems to be wobbly). Virtually anything goes. In terms of sheer numbers, there are far more heterosexuals at BYU who struggle with the Law of Chastity. It can be a tough commandment to obey in our increasingly sexualized world. And yet . . . here we are. Expected - commanded even - to obey it. I am grateful that the Church maintains its teachings about the Law of Chastity, which are in turn incorporated into the Honor Code. There is now a huge, screeching, discordant chorus of voices that are essentially variations on Korihor's "if it feels good, do it" brand of hedonism (from Alma 30) : I am grateful, then, that there is a clear, calm, firm voice speaking and reminding of the commandments of God. This is the collective voice of prophets and apostles who are saying the same things that have been said by past prophets and apostles. "Anything goes" does not work. "If it feels good, do it" does not work. "Whatsoever a man did was no crime" does not work. There is real value in having external sources of wisdom and authority to function as a bulwark against evasion, rationalization, and so on. A man in an unhappy marriage may very well have no feelings, or even acrimonious feelings, for his wife. I get that, but that does not justify or rationalize adultery. A young couple may have strong and real feelings for each other, but that does not justify or rationalize fornication. And on and on and on. The Law of Chastity is, I think, a very important doctrine in the Church. It is, nevertheless, downstream a bit from some of the others. If there was no restoration, if the theophanies and restorations did not happen with Joseph Smith, then there isn't much point in listening to today's prophets and apostles. That said, I still struggle with the alternative paradigms of sexual ethics being bandied about these days. Thanks, -Smac From the article Quote For gay students like Burke, attending BYU meant making sacrifices: he chose not to date while attending the school. During his three and a half years at BYU, Burke was never disciplined for any violation. Still, as an out student, he says the “harassment was relentless.” At one point, Burke says a leader of a homophobic alt-right Mormon movement called DezNat called for a $1,000 bounty for proof of an Honor Code violation that would lead to Burke’s expulsion from BYU. Burke told multiple BYU administrators that he felt unsafe on campus, to the point that he was afraid he would be killed, and says he was given no assistance. He is now transferring out of BYU part way through his senior year out of fear for his own safety. Quote Meanwhile, LGBTQ2S+ students say that BYU has continued to turn a blind eye to the harassment they face. When BYU professor Hank Smith called Calvin Burke “Korihor” on Twitter in response to a DezNat leader’s tweet, BYU never suspended him from teaching or offered a statement about the incident. “Korihor” is the name for the anti-Christ in the Book of Mormon, the faith’s holiest scripture, and Burke says the term is “the worst word you could call someone in Mormonism.” “It hit like a gut punch,” Burke remembers of the May 2021 incident. “Professor Smith at one time had been my professor, and he was actually the first professor I’d had that told me to go to graduate school to study religion.” While LGBTQ2S+ students say BYU is driving many away from the religion, Burke keeps his belief in God and his relationship with the college separate. In fact, his faith is what leads him to believe that BYU has a greater responsibility to LGBTQ2S+ students. “I don’t believe that someone can forget those who are most suffering and most marginalized in society and claim they are at the same time following God, ” he says. “Those in power have an obligation to those who are vulnerable.” Evidently, the Church's version of the woman caught in adultery goes something like " Someone has accused you of adultery thought they offer no proof. You are no longer welcome in our mist. Yeah that is the version of Christ the Church teaches. No actually evidence of breaking the Law of Chastity. We will take the word of DezNation over the word of the student, because well, he is gay.
smac97 Posted February 3, 2022 Author Posted February 3, 2022 (edited) 20 hours ago, ttribe said: Indeed, Joseph Smith's commitment to strict Victorian-Era sexual mores is practically legendary. I assume you are referencing his practice of polygamy. 20 hours ago, jkwilliams said: Tell that to Emma Smith. Heck, she wasn’t even able to give consent. Some sexual ethics. Sheesh. I think Laura Hales' treatment of this topic merits some attention. There is a strong temptation in our "Cancel Culture"-saturated mileu to reduce the entirety of a historical person's life down to only his errors, mistakes and worst qualities. So Moses becomes a murderer. Noah becomes a drunkard. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington become slaveowners. Martin Luther King, Jr. becomes an adulterer and plagiarist. Gandhi was a sexist and racist. And that's all they were. Or . . . not. Thanks, -Smac Edited February 4, 2022 by smac97 1
ttribe Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 Just now, smac97 said: I assume you are referencing his practice of polygamy. Not just the practice, but how it was practiced...polygyny...polyandry...underage brides...secrecy. 1
jkwilliams Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 8 minutes ago, ttribe said: Not just the practice, but how it was practiced...polygyny...polyandry...underage brides...secrecy. But, you know, pointing out the hypocrisy of justifying such unethical behavior while lecturing people about “sexual ethics” — why, that’s just cancel culture, or something. It takes a special kind of shamelessness to make such an absurd argument. 3
smac97 Posted February 3, 2022 Author Posted February 3, 2022 34 minutes ago, california boy said: From the article Quote For gay students like Burke, attending BYU meant making sacrifices: he chose not to date while attending the school. Following the Honor Code and living the Law of Chastity is, in a sense, a "sacrifice." Obedience to the commandments can be characterized that way. 34 minutes ago, california boy said: Quote During his three and a half years at BYU, Burke was never disciplined for any violation. Sounds like there is a place for folks like Burke at BYU, then. And yet elsewhere he publicly vilifies BYU, saying that "{m}ost people outside of BYU don’t understand how bad things are for queer students there or how many queer students there are at BYU." See, this stuff bugs me. Broad and vague characterizations and insinuations, but nothing that can be actually measured or verified. And more to the point, he knew about the Honor Code at BYU well before he went there. 34 minutes ago, california boy said: Quote Still, as an out student, he says the “harassment was relentless.” I question that. A lot, actually. 34 minutes ago, california boy said: Quote At one point, Burke says a leader of a homophobic alt-right Mormon movement called DezNat called for a $1,000 bounty for proof of an Honor Code violation that would lead to Burke’s expulsion from BYU. Which, if true, could be an indictment of that DezNat yahoo, not BYU or the Church. Meanwhile, here is a brief description of Calvin Burke by our very own Calm: Quote We are talking about the institution that has twice hired and currently employs “Calvin Burke”, a very public activist that is constantly pushing the idea that same sex relationships will be approved of by church leadership, including temple marriage, pushing the idea same sex relationships are doctrinally on par with opposite relationships iirc. Iirc, his timeline is in 5 years though I am not sure when he stated that so it is less than that at this point. He does post under an alias, thus the quotes, but it is openly known he works for MI and his real name is pretty easy to find out given his sister has tweeted about it at least once plus lots know him or of him offline. And there have been complaints about him working for MI and yet he still works for them and was even rehired. I don't know much about Calvin Burke, but vague claims from activists of this ilk tend to warrant a certain measure of healthy circumspection. Sometimes the zeal to be "activist" doesn't quite match up to the reality of the situation, such that there can arise an incentive to embroider and embellish so as to justify the activism. I can't help but think this is what is going on with Burke's characterizations of BYU. 34 minutes ago, california boy said: Quote Burke told multiple BYU administrators that he felt unsafe on campus, to the point that he was afraid he would be killed, and says he was given no assistance. He is now transferring out of BYU part way through his senior year out of fear for his own safety. Meh. I'm not at all convinced we are getting a straight recitation of the whole story here. Not buying into this self-serving drama, not without some substantive explanation and evidence. 34 minutes ago, california boy said: Evidently, the Church's version of the woman caught in adultery goes something like " Someone has accused you of adultery thought they offer no proof. You are no longer welcome in our mist. What a load of nonsense. The Church's stance is nothing like this. At all. This is rank fabrication and caricature. 34 minutes ago, california boy said: Yeah that is the version of Christ the Church teaches. It is nothing like what the Church teaches. 34 minutes ago, california boy said: No actually evidence of breaking the Law of Chastity. Speaking of no actual evidence... 34 minutes ago, california boy said: We will take the word of DezNation over the word of the student, because well, he is gay. Who's this "we"? And where is this "word of DezNation"? And who questioned Burke's honesty "because well, he is gay"? What on earth are you talking about? Thanks, -Smac 2
california boy Posted February 3, 2022 Posted February 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: Following the Honor Code and living the Law of Chastity is, in a sense, a "sacrifice." Obedience to the commandments can be characterized that way. Sounds like there is a place for folks like Burke at BYU, then. And yet elsewhere he publicly vilifies BYU, saying that "{m}ost people outside of BYU don’t understand how bad things are for queer students there or how many queer students there are at BYU." See, this stuff bugs me. Broad and vague characterizations and insinuations, but nothing that can be actually measured or verified. And more to the point, he knew about the Honor Code at BYU well before he went there. I question that. A lot, actually. Which, if true, could be an indictment of that DezNat yahoo, not BYU or the Church. Meanwhile, here is a brief description of Calvin Burke by our very own Calm: I don't know much about Calvin Burke, but vague claims from activists of this ilk tend to warrant a certain measure of healthy circumspection. Sometimes the zeal to be "activist" doesn't quite match up to the reality of the situation, such that there can arise an incentive to embroider and embellish so as to justify the activism. I can't help but think this is what is going on with Burke's characterizations of BYU. Meh. I'm not at all convinced we are getting a straight recitation of the whole story here. Not buying into this self-serving drama, not without some substantive explanation and evidence. What a load of nonsense. The Church's stance is nothing like this. At all. This is rank fabrication and caricature. It is nothing like what the Church teaches. Speaking of no actual evidence... Who's this "we"? And where is this "word of DezNation"? And who questioned Burke's honesty "because well, he is gay"? What on earth are you talking about? Thanks, -Smac never mind. I will let you continue to assume the worse of anyone who is gay and the Church can do no wrong.
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