BYU Bans Protests on Y Mountain

[rodheadlee]

I think all these protestors and complainers and people that break the rules are abusing the privilege of getting an education subsidized by the church. I believe they knew the rules when they signed up. 

Does the money that subsidizes the university still come from tithing? According to Wikipedia it does.

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I remember there being a restriction for after dark but I may be conflating it with other after dark restrictions or just because it is common sense to me not to go hiking after the sun goes down…which would be a requirement for the flashlight demonstration, at least coming back down the hill (and going down on hikes may be more dangerous than going up), but I have no clue about the safety issue of the Y since I never climbed it as I find the defacement of mountains for school spirit highly inappropriate. 

We hiked in the afternoon and ended up coming down after dark.  The moonlight was good.  i would think if someone is going there after dark, they would bring. a flashlight.  it really isn't that steep of trail.

[california boy]

USGS respondes to BYU crackdown on lighting the Y

Quote

USGA is once again disappointed in BYU because of another policy that has caused pain for the
queer community. BYU has taken action against the community following peaceful gatherings
and demonstrations of love on Y mountain in the past year. USGA members have taken part in
these acts to show love and support for LGBTQIA+ students amid the university's exclusionary
policies and blatant discrimination towards the community.
USGA exists to create a safe space for queer students at a university that is anything but safe for
them. We are the longest standing queer BYU organization and the university has continuously
denied requests for official club status. By doubling down on their policies of queer exclusion on
BYU owned property. BYU once again sends the message to queer students that they are not
welcome
at this school. USA has dealt with the fallout of every exclusionary move BYU and
the church has taken in the past 12 years. We save lives but we shouldn't have to. Queer lives
should not be threatened where "Christlike love" supposedly abounds.
BYU, you can ban USGA from campus, you can force us to sign a changed honor code and then
hold us to an unwritten clause. you can prohibit a rainbow lighting of the Y but you will never
win. Queer people exist at BYU, they always have, they always will. We protest everyday in our
classrooms, in the library, in the Cougareat, on the entirety of BYU owned property.
Our existence is our protest.
We use our voices in our classes to speak out against homophobic and transphobic comments
made by our teachers and classmates. We find love despite constantly being told we are not
worthy of such a thing. We form community that gives us strength and affirmation. We live our
lives and change the hearts of those we meet when supportive faculty and peers give us the
opportunity to share our stories.
Queer students make BYU a better and kinder place. It's far past time you realize that and stop
trying to put out the lights you taught us we should let shine before men just because they're
minbow.
USGA Presidency

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

  The BYUI students couldn't get the school to send official transcripts to the new colleges they wanted to attend so they lost all of their college credits.

This seems vindictive. I would really like to hear whoever made that policy try to justify it if true (the condition is simply because it is anecdotal and therefore prone to error, but I see no reason to doubt it more than my usual doubt of any kind of anecdotes that are not confirmed by manual documentation, etc).  The only possible justification and even that is pushing it Imo, is if they came to BYUI at the beginning intending to violate the honor code and this would mean the contract to provide an education was never in force technically if the contact specified that part of the contract was intent to obey the Honor Code, but I still see that as taking the low road of no forgiveness. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Calm

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Would you go on it after dark and still consider it not dangerous?

Btw, am I making a false assumption that the LGBT light display happens when it gets dark?  Just want to be sure. 
 

If it does happen after dark, have there been approved activities currently that are after dark around the Y?

Hiking in the dark is another matter.  It is too steep to transverse at night.  I just assumed they hiked up in the day and waited until dark to use their lights.  But then they would  have to walk down in the dark.  Going off the mountain in the dark would not be a good idea at all. 

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Many don't seem to believe my experiences but I have talked with at least 10 individuals in the last couple of years who were kicked out of BYU and BYU-Idaho because they were accused of dating and being honest when their bishop asked about it they said yes they had been dating but that was all.  No sex.  The bishop pulled their endorsements and they were out.  The BYUI students couldn't get the school to send official transcripts to the new colleges they wanted to attend so they lost all of their college credits.  BYU seems to not be that drastic if the reason is the withdrawal of your ecclesiastical endorsement.  If the honor code office is involved credits have been lost at times.

Remember, every bishop at church schools tends to have a number of spies(ward members) willing to quickly rat out the awful queers.

It seems to me that not sending transcripts would be something that could be challenged legally. 

[Calm]

39 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

Hiking in the dark is another matter.  It is too steep to transverse at night.  I just assumed they hiked up in the day and waited until dark to use their lights.  But then they would  have to walk down in the dark.  Going off the mountain in the dark would not be a good idea at all. 

So it could be a safety issue after all if the admins are assuming demonstrations will take place at least in part in the night?

Edited January 17, 2022 by Calm

[kimpearson]

6 hours ago, sunstoned said:

It seems to me that not sending transcripts would be something that could be challenged legally. 

 

9 hours ago, Calm said:

This seems vindictive. I would really like to hear whoever made that policy try to justify it if true (the condition is simply because it is anecdotal and therefore prone to error, but I see no reason to doubt it more than my usual doubt of any kind of anecdotes that are not confirmed by manual documentation, etc).  The only possible justification and even that is pushing it Imo, is if they came to BYUI at the beginning intending to violate the honor code and this would mean the contract to provide an education was never in force technically if the contact specified that part of the contract was intent to obey the Honor Code, but I still see that as taking the low road of no forgiveness. 

I tried a bit to find something on the internet that would add to what I heard but couldn't but I did find some interesting points as follows:

• Religion credits do not transfer so if a student transfers from a Church school in their JR or SR years, they will have to take additional semesters of school.
• Transfers from a private religious school like BYU almost always results in the new school not accepting credits as counting to the new schools graduation requirements.  Some have reported a loss of up to 50% of their credits.
• Because of tithing and BYU's low cost, being forced to transfer can require a huge hit financially for a student especially those with limited financial means or on scholarships.
• Certain majors at BYU like accounting have such a high value on the job market that loosing that can wreck a student's future job prospects.

Remember that we are talking about the results of going on a date with the same sex and nothing else.  The same results can happen for holding hands, kissing or having a boyfriend or girl friend.  How is the above fair when straight students can do the same thing and their bishops would actually be encouraging them every week to do this with no danger to their ecclesiastical endorsement.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, sunstoned said:

It seems to me that not sending transcripts would be something that could be challenged legally. 

It is complicated but BYU can probably refuse to send transcripts to a third party. You are entitled by federal law to be able to get a copy of your transcripts yourself (and only one copy if I remember correctly) but they don’t have to send the formal official ones with the registrars stamp to you or any third party. The usual cause for withholding transcripts in universities in general is unpaid debt to the school itself or unpaid fines or dorm costs or some other unpaid financial obligation. Public universities sometimes have state laws covering this. Private universities usually function under contract law. I don’t know what BYU does and does not promise about transcripts.

I don’t know if Utah has any specific laws covering transcripts or if BYU has rules covering transcripts.

The whole thing sometimes gets confused with other schools not accepting a lot of BYU’s credits (especially religion credits) but that is outside of BYU’s control.

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

We hiked in the afternoon and ended up coming down after dark.  The moonlight was good.  i would think if someone is going there after dark, they would bring. a flashlight.  it really isn't that steep of trail.

But if they have flashlights isn’t it likely they plan to illegally and with malice of forethought point them at things?

Better ban flashlights just in case.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, kimpearson said:

Certain majors at BYU like accounting have such a high value on the job market that loosing that can wreck a student's future job prospects

I don’t understand this unless it is saying the BYU is considered top in the field and so they won’t get as good of a job if they can’t go to BYU, but this is true of anyone who BYU refuses to take or doesn’t graduate for whatever reason.   That is not wrecking job prospects, just lowering them.

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t understand this unless it is saying the BYU is considered top in the field and so they won’t get as good of a job if they can’t go to BYU, but this is true of anyone who BYU refuses to take or doesn’t graduate for whatever reason.   That is not wrecking job prospects, just lowering them.

BYU has one of the top accounting programs in the country. If you can make it there, you should be able to transfer to pretty much any other top tier program you desire.

Yes, it will cost more money; and yes, your religion courses won't count for anything; but your future job prospects will most certainly not be ruined just because you transferred to UTA, UCLA, NYU, or wherever.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Amulek

[kimpearson]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t understand this unless it is saying the BYU is considered top in the field and so they won’t get as good of a job if they can’t go to BYU, but this is true of anyone who BYU refuses to take or doesn’t graduate for whatever reason.   That is not wrecking job prospects, just lowering them.

I am a graduate of the BYU accounting school.  A BYU accounting degree is like a golden ticket to a job.  There are only about 5 accounting programs in the US that have that same level of respect.  Why are you bringing up those who are not accepted or don't graduate for other reasons when we are talking about fairness for a student that has been accepted, has the grades and course work to get a BYU degree, both the student and the parents have often paid tithing and the only thing the student did was go on a date with someone of the same sex.  Why bring in some new point that was never part of the discussion?

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, kimpearson said:

I am a graduate of the BYU accounting school.  A BYU accounting degree is like a golden ticket to a job.  There are only about 5 accounting programs in the US that have that same level of respect.  Why are you bringing up those who are not accepted or don't graduate for other reasons when we are talking about fairness for a student that has been accepted, has the grades and course work to get a BYU degree, both the student and the parents have often paid tithing and the only thing the student did was go on a date with someone of the same sex.  Why bring in some new point that was never part of the discussion?

Because you didn’t make a claim about fairness, you made a claim that it can wreck future job prospects and I was demonstrating it didn’t since lots of working accountants out there that didn’t have the chance to go to BYU..

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, kimpearson said:

 

I tried a bit to find something on the internet that would add to what I heard but couldn't but I did find some interesting points as follows:

• Religion credits do not transfer so if a student transfers from a Church school in their JR or SR years, they will have to take additional semesters of school.
• Transfers from a private religious school like BYU almost always results in the new school not accepting credits as counting to the new schools graduation requirements.  Some have reported a loss of up to 50% of their credits.
• Because of tithing and BYU's low cost, being forced to transfer can require a huge hit financially for a student especially those with limited financial means or on scholarships.
• Certain majors at BYU like accounting have such a high value on the job market that loosing that can wreck a student's future job prospects.

Remember that we are talking about the results of going on a date with the same sex and nothing else.  The same results can happen for holding hands, kissing or having a boyfriend or girl friend.  How is the above fair when straight students can do the same thing and their bishops would actually be encouraging them every week to do this with no danger to their ecclesiastical endorsement.

Yes, when you breach the contract under which you were accepted for admission, the consequences can be a bummer. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, kimpearson said:

… both the student and the parents have often paid tithing …

There are a number of reasons why many people who have paid tithing and whose parents have paid tithing can’t go to BYU. In fact, to my knowledge, having parents who pay tithing is not even a pre-requisite. 
 

Paying tithing is not an automatic ticket to get into a Church school; most people recognize this from the get-go. 

[Kenngo1969]

16 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I think all these protestors and complainers and people that break the rules are abusing the privilege of getting an education subsidized by the church. I believe they knew the rules when they signed up. 

Does the money that subsidizes the university still come from tithing? According to Wikipedia it does.

It's funny how some of the same people who are concerned about how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints allocates its resources also are the ones who whine and moan the loudest about how Brigham Young University is unfair to its students "who have opinions" (my phrase).  That, I think, is a genuinely curious contradiction.  After all, there are plenty of places where students "who have opinions" would be welcome without taking a slot that a faithful Latter-day Saint gladly would occupy.  Just sayin'!

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

It's funny how some of the same people who are concerned about how the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints allocates its resources also are the ones who whine and moan the loudest about how Brigham Young University is unfair to its students "who have opinions" (my phrase).  That, I think, is a genuinely curious contradiction.  After all, there are plenty of places where students "who have opinions" would be welcome without taking a slot that a faithful Latter-day Saint gladly would occupy.  Just sayin'!

Someone very dear to me recently graduated from a university where he distinguished himself academically. He would have loved to attend BYU but didn’t achieve the grades in high school to qualify for it. I therefore don’t have a great deal of sympathy for those who are admitted but then are obliged to leave because they refuse to abide by the conditions under which they were admitted. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:27 PM, california boy said:

USGS respondes to BYU crackdown on lighting the Y

 

What does lighting the Y have to do with geology?

Edited January 19, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[ttribe]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:38 AM, Amulek said:

BYU has one of the top accounting programs in the country. If you can make it there, you should be able to transfer to pretty much any other top tier program you desire.

Yes, it will cost more money; and yes, your religion courses won't count for anything; but your future job prospects will most certainly not be ruined just because you transferred to UTA, UCLA, NYU, or wherever.

 

 

On 1/17/2022 at 9:53 AM, kimpearson said:

I am a graduate of the BYU accounting school.  A BYU accounting degree is like a golden ticket to a job.  There are only about 5 accounting programs in the US that have that same level of respect.  Why are you bringing up those who are not accepted or don't graduate for other reasons when we are talking about fairness for a student that has been accepted, has the grades and course work to get a BYU degree, both the student and the parents have often paid tithing and the only thing the student did was go on a date with someone of the same sex.  Why bring in some new point that was never part of the discussion?

I obtained my Master of Accountancy from BYU and, for the most part, it has served me well.  However, I've noted that there is a stigma associated with that degree that sometimes does not serve me well.  Every time I testify as an expert witness in court, I have to state my educational and professional background, certifications, degrees, etc. I've noticed the occasional eye-roll in the court room when I state I have a degree from BYU (even though my Bachelor's is from Arizona State University). It's not very often, but it's enough to concern me.

Edited January 19, 2022 by ttribe

[kimpearson]

On 1/17/2022 at 2:05 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

Yes, when you breach the contract under which you were accepted for admission, the consequences can be a bummer. 

 

On 1/17/2022 at 2:17 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

There are a number of reasons why many people who have paid tithing and whose parents have paid tithing can’t go to BYU. In fact, to my knowledge, having parents who pay tithing is not even a pre-requisite. 
 

Paying tithing is not an automatic ticket to get into a Church school; most people recognize this from the get-go. 

Are you bringing up additional issues to confuse the original point I made?  I mentioned tithing to indicate the student's and parent's financial contributions have supported BYU.  Is it fair for a student to lose his/her ecclesiastical endorsement because they went on a date with some one of the same sex or held hands with someone of the same sex?  The contract you were referring to follows:

Church Educational System Honor Code

Brigham Young University and other Church Educational System institutions exist to provide an education in an atmosphere consistent with the ideals and principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That atmosphere is created and preserved by a community of faculty, administration, staff, and students who voluntarily commit to conduct their lives in accordance with the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ and who strive to maintain the highest standards in their personal conduct regarding honor, integrity, morality, and consideration of others. By accepting appointment, continuing in employment, being admitted, or continuing class enrollment, each member of the BYU community personally commits to observe these Honor Code standards approved by the Board of Trustees “at all times and in all things, and in all places” (Mosiah 18:9):

Be honest.

Live a chaste and virtuous life, including abstaining from any sexual relations outside a marriage between a man and a woman.

Respect others, including the avoidance of profane and vulgar language.

Obey the law and follow campus policies.

Abstain from alcoholic beverages, tobacco, tea, coffee, vaping, and substance abuse.

Participate regularly in Church services (required only of Church members).

Observe Brigham Young University’s Dress and Grooming Standards.

Encourage others in their commitment to comply with the Honor Code.

[sunstoned]

On 1/17/2022 at 12:53 AM, Calm said:

So it could be a safety issue after all if the admins are assuming demonstrations will take place at least in part in the night?

I would think hiking the trail in the dark could be a safety issue. By getting ownership of that part of the mountain from the Forest Service, BYU has taken on a lot of liability. The sad thing is that BYU is a big target for many people/groups. 
 

[sunstoned]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

What does lighting the Y have to do with geology?

That was my first thought🙂

[sunstoned]

3 hours ago, ttribe said:

 

I obtained my Master of Accountancy from BYU and, for the most part, it has served me well.  However, I've noted that there is a stigma associated with that degree that sometimes does not serve me well.  Every time I testify as an expert witness in court, I have to state my educational and professional background, certifications, degrees, etc. I've noticed the occasional eye-roll in the court room when I state I have a degree from BYU (even though my Bachelor's is from Arizona State University). It's not very often, but it's enough to concern me.

I have a BS in Computer Science, and since most of my work experience has been in Utah, I naturally did not experience anything that I could call negative from my degree (except from a few U of U grads).  It was not until I attended grad school back East where I ran into situations like you have described.   

[ttribe]

6 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I have a BS in Computer Science, and since most of my work experience has been in Utah, I naturally did not experience anything that I could call negative from my degree (except from a few U of U grads).  It was not until I attended grad school back East where I ran into situations like you have described.   

For me, this is especially pronounced if the attorney I am working with, and/or the client, also went to BYU or are LDS.  The assumption that the "Mormon Mafia" (as it is affectionately called) in AZ sticks together is difficult to overcome in a court room setting.