BYU Bans Protests on Y Mountain

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

This isn't moving the goalpost.  It is part of the problem.  It is the clear message the Church is sending to those that are gay.  You don't have a voice at BYU, but somehow we love you and want you to stay in the Church.  Just shut up and sit on the back row.

This is an example of the message getting short-circuited by emotion and bias. The Honor Code is one thing ("my way or the highway") and the Church moral code is another ("teach correct principles").

This kind of conflation gets pretty insidious. For example, the 2019 BYU valedictorian announced that "the Lord made [him] to be... a Gay son of God." This opposes the Church's position that we do not know the causes of someone being gay (and science doesn't either). From the resulting reactions to this speech, we can see the division, confusion and conflict this caused. It's OK for an individual to believe what he wants, but a BYU graduation forum was hijacked for a passive demonstration to "contradict or oppose, rather than analyze or discuss, fundamental Church doctrine or policy."

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

I still don’t get this…Why? Does disciplinary action get taken against people who struggle with anger? Or people who swear? Or people who get tattoos? Or people who participate in NCMOs?

Just because something is immoral doesn’t mean the church needs to step in and punish them.

I don't see how that is comparable to gay dating that can get you kicked out of BYU

[california boy]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

You have said that repeatedly, but it fails in proving your current complaint is that BYU has ulterior motives from those it has expressed for establishing this policy, which still permits demonstrations (including LGBTQ+ policy issues). Wallowing in the past under new circumstances does nothing to help the conversation move along, as BYU invites through various forums “in loco parentis.”

Can you come up some ways that safety is a valid concern with regards to student demonstrations on BYU property, in this case, on the mountain?

No I can't come up with a reasonable concern about safety since BYU students have been climbing Y mountain for decades.  Even when my father went to BYU, whitewashing the Y was a part of every homecoming.  That included not just hiking up a hill, but carrying buckets of whitewash. I hiked up to the Y when I was going there.  It is not uncommon for students to hike up the the Y even today.  Hiking up to the Y to this day is not prohibited.  Anyone can hike up to the Y.  Has BYU issued a statement stating that students can no long hike up to the Y because of safety issues?  So let's not pretend this is a safety issue. It is actually one of the things that just seems so dishonest about how BYU treats gay students.

[Fether]

24 minutes ago, california boy said:

I don't see how that is comparable to gay dating that can get you kicked out of BYU

So you believe the BYU honor code should go hand in hand with church policy of disfellowship and excommunication (or whatever they call it now)?

[CV75]

14 minutes ago, california boy said:

No I can't come up with a reasonable concern about safety since BYU students have been climbing Y mountain for decades.  Even when my father went to BYU, whitewashing the Y was a part of every homecoming.  That included not just hiking up a hill, but carrying buckets of whitewash. I hiked up to the Y when I was going there.  It is not uncommon for students to hike up the the Y even today.  Hiking up to the Y to this day is not prohibited.  Anyone can hike up to the Y.  Has BYU issued a statement stating that students can no long hike up to the Y because of safety issues?  So let's not pretend this is a safety issue. It is actually one of the things that just seems so dishonest about how BYU treats gay students.

I think you can come up with several reasonable concerns if you think about and research the topic a little bit. What are the changing trends, circumstances and potentials that BYU and student demonstrators are facing that impact safety considerations?

[provoman]

How can a trail be owned? I can understand the Y itself and surrounding property being privately owned; but it is curious to me that a “trail” can be owned.

EDIT: NVM, BYU owns roughly 200acres of land - encompassing the entire “hike the Y” trail, and the Y itself is on 83 acres of land

Edited January 16, 2022 by provoman

[provoman]

11 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think you can come up with several reasonable concerns if you think about and research the topic a little bit. What are the changing trends, circumstances and potentials that BYU and student demonstrators are facing that impact safety considerations?

3 decades ago, I climbed to the Y at night with family and extended family.

Though, I accept there is likely liability to the property owner.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Fether said:

So you believe the BYU honor code should go hand in hand with church policy of disfellowship and excommunication (or whatever they call it now)?

I believe that members in good standing should be allowed to attend BYU.  No special carve outs just because someone is LGBT.  

[california boy]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think you can come up with several reasonable concerns if you think about and research the topic a little bit. What are the changing trends, circumstances and potentials that BYU and student demonstrators are facing that impact safety considerations?

You seem to be playing a little game here.  Not sure why.  But if you can tell me why BYU students have been climbing up to the Y for literally decades and can still climb up the Y, but if you are gay it is unsafe, please, I am all ears.

[Fether]

59 minutes ago, california boy said:

You seem to be playing a little game here.  Not sure why.  But if you can tell me why BYU students have been climbing up to the Y for literally decades and can still climb up the Y, but if you are gay it is unsafe, please, I am all ears.

Gays are more precious and fragile

 

[california boy]

47 minutes ago, Fether said:

Gays are more precious and fragile

 

Pretty funny.  And seems like the Church uses similar pretzel twisting to justify the crap it gives gays.  

[carbon dioxide]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I don't see how that is comparable to gay dating that can get you kicked out of BYU

Gay dating will not get you kicked out of BYU anymore than boy and girl dating.  What may get one kicked out is what they may do on that date.  Nobody is looking to see if two guys go to a movie together to check if they are gay.  It could just be two guys who are roommates seeing a movie. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by carbon dioxide

[CV75]

3 hours ago, provoman said:

3 decades ago, I climbed to the Y at night with family and extended family.

Though, I accept there is likely liability to the property owner.

Yes, I think there is more to consider and the circumstances can get complicated for a private, religious university property owner and demonstrators tuned-in and susceptible to national messaging and events.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

You seem to be playing a little game here.  Not sure why.  But if you can tell me why BYU students have been climbing up to the Y for literally decades and can still climb up the Y, but if you are gay it is unsafe, please, I am all ears.

This is a silly strawman (see post above)/

 

[sunstoned]

5 hours ago, provoman said:

3 decades ago, I climbed to the Y at night with family and extended family.

Though, I accept there is likely liability to the property owner.

I have hiked, ridden my mountain bike and taken my motorcycle up to the Y before.  On the mountain bike trip, it was homecoming and there were 20 to 30 people on the Y with radios and lunches.  It is a steep trail, but I never considered it dangerous. 

[Fether]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I believe that members in good standing should be allowed to attend BYU.  No special carve outs just because someone is LGBT.  

I do agree actually. If this is really a question people are asking, then something should be said.

I think this may be one of those situations that they didn’t foresee coming. For me, at least, The fact that people are wondering if gay dating is “approved” seems to come from left field and is likely triggered by Tom Christofferson’s comment on how he is going to start dating.

[Fether]

17 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

I have hiked, ridden my mountain bike and taken my motorcycle up to the Y before.  On the mountain bike trip, it was homecoming and there were 20 to 30 people on the Y with radios and lunches.  It is a steep trail, but I never considered it dangerous. 

My cousin fell down the Y and broke her arm

[rongo]

11 minutes ago, Fether said:

I do agree actually. If this is really a question people are asking, then something should be said.

I think this may be one of those situations that they didn’t foresee coming. For me, at least, The fact that people are wondering if gay dating is “approved” seems to come from left field and is likely triggered by Tom Christofferson’s comment on how he is going to start dating.

It was triggered two years ago when the honor code office announced it was removing it from the honor code,followed by celebratory demonstrations (kiss ins in front of the BY statue, etc.) that made national news, followed weeks later by Elder Paul Johnson stating that it was incompatible with the the plan of salvation.

It appears that David Archuleta, Tom Christoffer son, and other high profile people are turning up the heat, in conjunction with other high profile protest actions like lighting the Y.

[Fether]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

It was triggered two years ago when the honor code office announced it was removing it from the honor code,followed by celebratory demonstrations (kiss ins in front of the BY statue, etc.) that made national news, followed weeks later by Elder Paul Johnson stating that it was incompatible with the the plan of salvation.

It appears that David Archuleta, Tom Christoffer son, and other high profile people are turning up the heat, in conjunction with other high profile protest actions like lighting the Y.

I see.

I would also say, and I can really only speak for myself, that I always thought (and still do) that any form of showing romantic affect to a person of the same gender violated the law of chastity.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

hiked up to the Y when I was going there.

I remember there being a restriction for after dark but I may be conflating it with other after dark restrictions or just because it is common sense to me not to go hiking after the sun goes down…which would be a requirement for the flashlight demonstration, at least coming back down the hill (and going down on hikes may be more dangerous than going up), but I have no clue about the safety issue of the Y since I never climbed it as I find the defacement of mountains for school spirit highly inappropriate. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

I have hiked, ridden my mountain bike and taken my motorcycle up to the Y before.  On the mountain bike trip, it was homecoming and there were 20 to 30 people on the Y with radios and lunches.  It is a steep trail, but I never considered it dangerous. 

Would you go on it after dark and still consider it not dangerous?

Btw, am I making a false assumption that the LGBT light display happens when it gets dark?  Just want to be sure. 
 

If it does happen after dark, have there been approved activities currently that are after dark around the Y?

Edited January 17, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

but if you are gay it is unsafe,

They aren’t allowing LGBT+ activists that aren’t gay while not allowing gays, so not exactly an accurate argument/description of what is happening. 
 

If they are allowing similar demonstrations (both time and place and numbers), but not allowing queer rights demonstrations, then there is exclusion of such activism which does signify ultimately a different treatment of the queer community, not saying there is equal treatment just because they disallow straight activists along with those who identify as non straight. 
 

But I would like to know if there have been similar demonstrations or activities in general (because unless there is conflict expected, I am assuming it is the time, location, and numbers that could be related to safety issues) around the Y in terms of time, place and number allowed outside of the LGBT+ activism?  Does anyone have a list of say the last 5 years or so of activities there?

[california boy]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Gay dating will not get you kicked out of BYU anymore than boy and girl dating.  What may get one kicked out is what they may do on that date.  Nobody is looking to see if two guys go to a movie together to check if they are gay.  It could just be two guys who are roommates seeing a movie. 

I believe you are wrong.  Did you ever go to BYU? If you break the honor code, you are subject to dismissal of the school.  The honor code also requires reporting infractions.  And yeah, some people do actually snitch on their roommates.  From what I hear, the biggest issue from the LGBT students is the fear of getting kicked out of BYU for getting caught holding hands, or going on a date, or kissing.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

It could just be two guys who are roommates seeing a movie. 

So if they lie about why they went out if anyone asks, they will be just fine in your view?  Because while total strangers aren’t going to ask, do you think friends won’t?

“Don’t ask, don’t tell” doesn’t really exist among college age kids for much of anything, least of all dating is my guess. 

[kimpearson]

5 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Gay dating will not get you kicked out of BYU anymore than boy and girl dating.  What may get one kicked out is what they may do on that date.  Nobody is looking to see if two guys go to a movie together to check if they are gay.  It could just be two guys who are roommates seeing a movie. 

Many don't seem to believe my experiences but I have talked with at least 10 individuals in the last couple of years who were kicked out of BYU and BYU-Idaho because they were accused of dating and being honest when their bishop asked about it they said yes they had been dating but that was all.  No sex.  The bishop pulled their endorsements and they were out.  The BYUI students couldn't get the school to send official transcripts to the new colleges they wanted to attend so they lost all of their college credits.  BYU seems to not be that drastic if the reason is the withdrawal of your ecclesiastical endorsement.  If the honor code office is involved credits have been lost at times.

Remember, every bishop at church schools tends to have a number of spies(ward members) willing to quickly rat out the awful queers.