LDS Church ever more insular and irrelevant in the community.

[InCognitus]

If you are talking about the fires on Thursday and Friday in Boulder county, Colorado (Denver area), then here's a Church News article on members impacted by the fires:  Colorado wildfire: missionaries and Church members accounted for, but some lost everything

And, according to this (annoying add) CBS Denver news site, the Boulder County Sheriff is asking that people stop bringing physical donations, like food, clothing and household items, because they don't have anymore room for them:   Boulder County Officials Running Out Of Room For Physical Donations For Marshall Fire Victims

The videos I've seen of that fire are horrific.  With 100+ MPH winds, it swept through the community almost before people could act.

Here are some videos (some of them are pretty scary).  The fire spread so fast that they had to evacuate people out of the stores while they were shopping or eating pizza:

RAW: Guests evacuate Superior Chuck E. Cheese as grass fire moves closer

Costco evacuation due to Marshall Fire

This next one looks almost like computer graphics special effects for a motion picture, but it's real:

Louisville, Co First light shows destruction from Marshall Fire- Drone 4k

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by InCognitus

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Chum said:

I did not say individuals were cloistered.

No, you implied that those who encourage individuals to pursue causes on their own are symptomatic of a “cloistered mentality.”

[Chum]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

No, you implied that those who encourage individuals to pursue causes on their own are symptomatic of a “cloistered mentality.”

Incorrect. I was speaking exclusively about the members in my ward.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

Since last week, we have experienced fires in the community that destroyed 100+ homes and displaced almost 6000 people. A neighbor of ours that is active in his local church called me two days ago to see if we had a couple of blankets to spare to donate. They have opened several churches around the communities to house temporarily those left homeless by the fire as it burned its way through the foothills development and those evacuated because of danger. We were more than happy to help. We went yesterday and helped in the kitchen there to prep meals for about 150 people that are staying in that particular church building.

Today in Sacrament, not a peep about the issues affecting the community. In my view, more evidence of how disconnected, aloof and indifferent most (individual) members of our church are to what happens around them. I have argued before rather unsuccessfully, that "invisible, private faith" is no faith at all. If the work of the Spirit is not visible in terms of tangible "fruit", there is no Spirit at work in that person, regardless of whatever else the person may claim or adhere to in general. A scripture comes to mind:

"And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. " James 2:16-17

Well said, Islander.  I am sure that you are too humble to tell us how you got up during Fast & Testimony meeting and voiced your faith that actions speak louder than words, and that your ward (and stake) should be fully involved in temporarily housing and feeding the newly homeless -- and in calling upon LDS Church HQ to provide full backup, just as they must surely be doing in the Philippines right now as a result of the recent Typhoon, just as they must surely be doing in Kentucky and neighboring states which recently experienced destructive tornadoes, etc.  I'm sure that you talked about that with your bishop and relief society president and elders quorum president, and perhaps fired off an email to the Presiding Bishop's Office in SLC.  I'm sure that you covered all bases to assure immediate action.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Islander said:

I am not interested in the "corporate effort". Christ never spoke about that. I am interest in the personal effort. The sacrifice that costs US time, energy, money, effort, the tangible hand that touches the lives of others though which people can see the love of Christ flowing through us. Lots of people donate lots of money for the wrong reasons but will never lift a finger to go and do the work. In the United States is the most common form of "help". Write a check and forget about it. 

Actually checks are very helpful.  Food and clothing are expensive.  Moreover, Christ's Church is a well-organized corporate, communal affair, not a bunch of disconnected, chaotic individuals.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Islander said:

You suspicions are unfounded. I asked the Elders and they had no idea about any relief related activity. My post is based on first hand knowledge of the apathy and lack of social engagement of this ward. When you have a ward with zero convert baptism in 5 years you are in the presence of a dead vine. This is the second ward in 10 years where I encounter a similar situation. It is just to easy to rationalize, to assume or attempt to justify. My question is, should you stand before the all-searching eye of the Almighty God to account for your lack of response when suffering and need abounded; will yout ell Him that you were "tired", "burned out" or short on time? Do you suppose that would fly or carry any weight?

And, of course, that is the message you delivered to your ward during Sacrament meeting, right?  What would Alma the Younger have done?

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

Incorrect. I was speaking exclusively about the members in my ward.

I understand that. You implied that “the old guard” in your ward was “cloistered” after they suggested individuals pursue their favorite causes on their own instead of expecting the ward to sponsor it institutionally. I don’t think that amounts to being cloistered. A ward can’t lead out on every cause that comes along. It would soon run out of resources. That’s why individuals are encouraged to do some things on their own initiative. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[Amulek]

16 hours ago, Islander said:

Today in Sacrament, not a peep about the issues affecting the community. In my view, more evidence of how disconnected, aloof and indifferent most (individual) members of our church are to what happens around them.

I stopped watching the news several years ago. By and large, I'm much happier because of it - though, admittedly, there are times where I'm a bit late to the party when it comes to certain things.

But I can say with a fair degree of certainty that the ward I am in punches well above it's weight class when it comes to community service. Sorry to hear your experience hasn't been the same.

 

[Chum]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I understand that. You implied that “the old guard” in your ward was “cloistered” after they suggested individuals pursue their favorite causes on their own instead of expecting the ward to sponsor it institutionally. I don’t think that amounts to being cloistered.

I did not present a position that amounts to This Behavior Alone Proves That State Exists. That came from you as I wasn't proving anything.

Our ward cloistered. I shared a few ways that manifested.

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A ward can’t lead out on every cause that comes along. It would soon run out of resources. That’s why individuals are encouraged to do some things on their own initiative. 

This rebuttal might be a good fit for a ward that had some regular history of initiating community outreach. It is not a good fit for the ward I described, however.

[Chum]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

I stopped watching the news several years ago. By and large, I'm much happier because of it - though, admittedly, there are times where I'm a bit late to the party when it comes to certain things.

I can endorse this.

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, Amulek said:

I stopped watching the news several years ago. By and large, I'm much happier because of it - though, admittedly, there are times where I'm a bit late to the party when it comes to certain things.

I stopped watching "the news" years ago as well.  These days, I get my cutting-edge relevant news from 30 minutes of TikTok.  In terms of immediate access to what I want to know, it is far superior to anything ever produced by a TV or radio network or newspaper.  You pick your bias (mine is breaking news from several differently-biased sources), and the algorithm does the rest.  

The downfall of CNN has been a glory to behold, and way overdue.  So happy to see it's best coming in like 13th.  So happy to hear every time it loses to the weather channel or cooking network.  Buncha click-bait outrage-peddling [politics-redacted] yellow journalism.  Can't even really call it journalism any more.  

ABC is good for a live New Year's eve NY ball drop stream, nothing else.

MSNBC is what you watch when you want to know what the least-informed and most-easily-led among us are being told what to know.

FOX is where you go when you want to browse for interesting headlines that you'll go find out about a better way.

CBS is good for Star Trek shows.  Do they even still do news?

 

[Cordelia]

FoxNews has defended itself against lawsuits by claiming that they are an entertainment network, not a news channel. Even they know they aren't news! 

[poptart]

17 hours ago, Chum said:

We were talking about service. I belonged to a ward that refused to interact/serve with the community unless directed to by the stake. Anyone who brought it up would be told "Feel free to do so yourself". It was part of the cloistering mentality that ran thru the old guard, who endlessly wound up in charge.

I didn't leave. I attended but withdrew to protect myself. It had become an insular group and left little to engage with. In the end, it was lessons+politics from the pulpit and then go home. The distance that Covid brought was an enormous blessing. A larger blessing was our recent move away.

That's what I meant as well as the effects you tend to see with not helping/good service to your ward, people walking away.  2nd paragraph pretty much took the words out of my mouth, well said.  

I'm really starting to see the writing on the wall with covid, we're about to get really ugly with each other.  This isn't going to end well I think, is what it is.  Was it that bad?  Sorry to hear.  It always saddens me when I see orgs harm the good people then wonder why they either get slimeballs for members or no one cares because word got out about the rotten individuals.  

[Chum]

6 minutes ago, poptart said:

I'm really starting to see the writing on the wall with covid, we're about to get really ugly with each other. 

I have come to believe that recent (18 mos) Church teachings are the way out of this mess. Specifically, counsel to double down on being friends to our neighbors, to forgive those who are harming us and to increase our service to the poor, vulnerable, maligned, incarcerated, etc.

I didn't come to this conclusion lightly. I've come to support not just what leadership says but what isn't said. I find I'm walking back my desire for leadership to be more explicit.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Cordelia said:

FoxNews has defended itself against lawsuits by claiming that they are an entertainment network, not a news channel. Even they know they aren't news! 

That was only Tucker Carlson’s show if I remember correctly. They argued to the court that no reasonable person would believe that Tucker tells the truth on his show.

[Chum]

3 hours ago, Cordelia said:

FoxNews has defended itself against lawsuits by claiming that they are an entertainment network, not a news channel. Even they know they aren't news! 

Once I figured out that Fox was created from & for bias (created as an arms-race response to media bias, real and imagined), I realized it can't be anything but what it is.

[Scott Lloyd]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That was only Tucker Carlson’s show if I remember correctly. They argued to the court that no reasonable person would believe that Tucker tells the truth on his show.

CFR

Added later: If this is your snarky way of saying they argued that Carlson’s show is opinion and commentary rather than straight news, by your reasoning, one could argue that no one could reasonably believe that you tell the truth either. 

 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[BRMC]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR

There are a ton of stories on it.  Here's one.

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-believe-the-facts-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Chum said:

Our ward cloistered. I shared a few ways that manifested.

As you have in the past.  If you are accurate (and I have no reason to doubt that), I agree with your use of the label.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

CFR

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/29/917747123/you-literally-cant-believe-the-facts-tucker-carlson-tells-you-so-say-fox-s-lawye

It was argued by Fox’s lawyers and the judge wrote the following:

"'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.' "

"Fox persuasively argues, that given Mr. Carlson's reputation, any reasonable viewer 'arrive[s] with an appropriate amount of skepticism' about the statement he makes."

I read the ruling last year when it came out. Tucker wasn’t engaging in hyperbole or playing it up for theatrical effect. Part of the content that gave rise to the slander suit was Tucker’s statement about the story he was talking about which includes this tidbit:

"Remember the facts of the story. These are undisputed."

(Narrator) They were not facts and the court did determine they were facts but dismissed the case on the basis that any reasonable person would be skeptical of Tucker’s honesty due to the ‘general tenor’ of the show and his use of ‘non-literal’ commentary whatever that means.

[poptart]

50 minutes ago, Chum said:

I have come to believe that recent (18 mos) Church teachings are the way out of this mess. Specifically, counsel to double down on being friends to our neighbors, to forgive those who are harming us and to increase our service to the poor, vulnerable, maligned, incarcerated, etc.

I didn't come to this conclusion lightly. I've come to support not just what leadership says but what isn't said. I find I'm walking back my desire for leadership to be more explicit.

I've heard similar things from friends, hearing it from you and others on this board just validates it more.  This is why when things really do get bad I think the LDS will fare better than a lot of other Christian orgs, when you are associated with doing good, you tend to be treated a lot better.  It's what the early church did, during plagues it was the early church that cared for people, even those from pagan families who tossed their ill on the street.  It's spooky how we're seeing the same thing here nowadays.  Really reminds me of some of the things Putin has said about the USA, namely that they think consequences don't apply to them because they're Americans.  I'm not exactly a fan of Putin but some of the things he says are spot on.

I've come to really appreciate LDS church leadership, it really does sicken me when I see just how divided, political and downright awful a lot of "traditional Christians" in the USA are being right now.  One thing I'm certain of, God will not be mocked.  Keep poking the bear people......

 

[Chum]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

As you have in the past.  If you are accurate (and I have no reason to doubt that), I agree with your use of the label.

If I have an intent behind sharing my exp it's to invite suggestions or commiseration. Mostly the latter as I no longer think it's a fixable problem.  Odds are it'll change organically, one of these decades.

[LoudmouthMormon]

I like how everyone is talking about how FOX isn't good news, and not a word about how CNN has fallen from king, to morally bankrupt, ratings-starved, irrelevant joke.

At this point, I'm thinking silence basically implies agreement.  But if that opinion isn't universally shared, let me throw down the gauntlet:  Hey any human on the face of the planet: If you think CNN in 2022 is NOT little more than a click-driven outrage-peddling transparently biased source of anti-news, I'd like to hear why you think that. 

Can anyone give me an updated count of CNN folks fired for doing naughty horrible sex things, but only after they get arrested, indicted, or accused publicly?  There's John Griffin, a former Chris Cuomo producer, fired after being indicted by a federal grand jury for alleged horrible sex things with minors.  There's Rick Saleeby, a former senior producer for Jake Tapper's show, resigned after being arrested as part of a criminal investigation into his allegedly describing alleged sexual fantasies about alleged young girls.  At least Chris Cuomo's allegations of sexual misconduct are coming from an adult, so that's something.

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[Chum]

16 minutes ago, poptart said:

I've heard similar things from friends, hearing it from you and others on this board just validates it more.  This is why when things really do get bad I think the LDS will fare better than a lot of other Christian orgs, when you are associated with doing good, you tend to be treated a lot better.  It's what the early church did, during plagues it was the early church that cared for people, even those from pagan families who tossed their ill on the street.  It's spooky how we're seeing the same thing here nowadays.  Really reminds me of some of the things Putin has said about the USA, namely that they think consequences don't apply to them because they're Americans.  I'm not exactly a fan of Putin but some of the things he says are spot on.

I've come to really appreciate LDS church leadership, it really does sicken me when I see just how divided, political and downright awful a lot of "traditional Christians" in the USA are being right now.  One thing I'm certain of, God will not be mocked.  Keep poking the bear people......

 

Honestly, if I thought a different faith had a better method or thought the Church just sucks at this, I'd say so.

Objectively I think the Church is getting this about as right as is possible. It also matches my own experience defusing really bad situations.  It'd be nice if it was also satisfying but I'll settle for what works.

[Stargazer]

On 1/2/2022 at 9:38 PM, Islander said:

Since last week, we have experienced fires in the community that destroyed 100+ homes and displaced almost 6000 people. A neighbor of ours that is active in his local church called me two days ago to see if we had a couple of blankets to spare to donate. They have opened several churches around the communities to house temporarily those left homeless by the fire as it burned its way through the foothills development and those evacuated because of danger. We were more than happy to help. We went yesterday and helped in the kitchen there to prep meals for about 150 people that are staying in that particular church building.

Today in Sacrament, not a peep about the issues affecting the community. In my view, more evidence of how disconnected, aloof and indifferent most (individual) members of our church are to what happens around them. I have argued before rather unsuccessfully, that "invisible, private faith" is no faith at all. If the work of the Spirit is not visible in terms of tangible "fruit", there is no Spirit at work in that person, regardless of whatever else the person may claim or adhere to in general. A scripture comes to mind:

"And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. " James 2:16-17

Perhaps there are those who quietly go about helping, without fanfare. So you don't know about them.

When my wife's first husband passed away, it was first at his funeral that many of his own family found out about all the things he had done behind the scenes to help people in need. He was doing his Christ-like service where God could see it, and not for the world to witness.