LDS Church ever more insular and irrelevant in the community.

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, Islander said:

You suspicions are unfounded. I asked the Elders and they had no idea about any relief related activity. My post is based on first hand knowledge of the apathy and lack of social engagement of this ward. When you have a ward with zero convert baptism in 5 years you are in the presence of a dead vine. This is the second ward in 10 years where I encounter a similar situation. It is just to easy to rationalize, to assume or attempt to justify. My question is, should you stand before the all-searching eye of the Almighty God to account for your lack of response when suffering and need abounded; will yout ell Him that you were "tired", "burned out" or short on time? Do you suppose that would fly or carry any weight?

Then say you have a problem with your ward, not the church.  Also make sure you know what the members of the church are doing on their own before accusing them of being indifferent and aloof. You might be able to judge some of the members in your ward (not all as they won't all tell you), but there are so many in the church that do serve.  

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by Rain

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

That’s why your church often donates directly to Catholic Charities. We’ve already got the bureaucracy, infrastructure, etc. in place. Duplicating something we’ve already got in place would be a waste of effort that could instead go directly to help. 

Our churches have a decent history of working together on humanitarian issues. 

EXACTLY! And they have  specifically stated that to organizations who work with the church.  They don't want to be your competition.   They want to help in areas that other orgs struggle.

[Chum]

10 minutes ago, BRMC said:

I meant why go outside looking for help?   If you identify a need in your community, why not bring it up in EQ and ask for people to come fill that need with you?

Because it will be (and consistently is) greeted with pushback, as strong as it takes.  And that pushback typically mirrors what you responded with earlier, a variant of "that's for you to do".

[Rain]

1 minute ago, Chum said:

Because it will be (and consistently is) greeted with pushback, as strong as it takes.  And that pushback typically mirrors what you responded with earlier, a variant of "that's for you to do".

That's where it really depends on the leader.   Some leaders are, "yes!'.  Some are, "I would like to, but I'm worried about overwhelming our members." Some are just like you say.

[BRMC]

6 minutes ago, Chum said:

Because it will be (and consistently is) greeted with pushback, as strong as it takes.  And that pushback typically mirrors what you responded with earlier, a variant of "that's for you to do".

Did you do it?

[Chum]

2 minutes ago, BRMC said:

Did you do it?

If it was something I could do alone, I generally did.  Bear in mind we are talking many dozen of attempts of a couple of decades.

[BRMC]

Just now, Chum said:

If it was something I could do alone, I generally did.  Bear in mind we are talking many dozen of attempts of a couple of decades.

That's unfortunate.  It's sad to see a ward that doesn't provide service.   I'm glad mine isn't like that.   Good for you for doing it yourself.  Ultimately, are blessings are individual.

[Chum]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

That's where it really depends on the leader.   Some leaders are, "yes!'.  Some are, "I would like to, but I'm worried about overwhelming our members." Some are just like you say.

Being cloistered from the community is something members (leaders and non) are fairly united about. Not everyone is like that but enough are.

One year there was a big push to register members as merit badge counselors, to end non-members working with the youth (in the building). About the same time, YM leadership killed scout camp in favor of camping on some local sand bar.

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, BRMC said:

That's unfortunate.  It's sad to see a ward that doesn't provide service.   I'm glad mine isn't like that.   Good for you for doing it yourself.  Ultimately, are blessings are individual.

I appreciate that. Again - if the answer to everything is "That's for you to handle" then it all leads to the question, "Why do I need my ward?"  Sacrament and that might be it.

Also repeating that was my last ward. The new one doesn't deserve the old one's baggage. I was the old one for 30 years (of which the last 25 mostly sucked) so it is taking me some time to shed that baggage. I am optimistic.

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, Chum said:

Being cloistered from the community is something members (leaders and non) are fairly united about. Not everyone is like that but enough are.

One year there was a big push to register members as merit badge counselors, to end non-members working with the youth (in the building). About the same time, YM leadership killed scout camp in favor of camping on some local sand bar.

You'll always find people that feel that way.  When we were doing the refugee apartment I had one woman, I'm not sure what exactly, but sort of thinking the family must be members or why should we help.  Luckily she was the only one thinking that way of 50+ people who helped.

I would like to say I would love to see our churches more open to charitable things. In weather emergencies you do see a lot of buildings opened to those who need a place to stay.  I haven't seen them opened on other things like I have with other churches. 

So I do think we have room to improve, but I don't think it we are as dire in service as some feel.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Rain

[kimpearson]

In my opinion the Church does very well with large disaster projects and is not shy about publicizing such projects to provide evidence of member's willingness to serve.  Wards and stakes seem to do a fairly good job with service projects where a number of member's can ban together to tackle a project.  If someone needs meals and has the right connections, the ward will fall all over themselves helping.   If you are active and have a need, odds are you will get help.  If you are inactive with needs and the ward has you on their "project list", you will get all kinds of help.  If a popular local church leader really pushes community service, you will get service for a time but it often seems to die out.   Church members often feel very uncomfortable serving hand in hand with other groups where coffee might be served, beers drank after hard labor or the smell of tobacco is on clothes.  Some individual members give incredible amounts of service in the community.  Most members are completely unaware of the major needs in the community unless they make up a large percentage of the community.  Members love "clean" service.  Get in get it done get out.  Drug addicts, homeless, those who live in marginalized communities and anyone who obviously lives a lifestyle outside of church norms rarely get much help from rank and file members.  Heaven forbid if you are inactive and have an issue with the Church that is known because no one will even know or care if you need help.  You are invisible.   Many Church member's seem only to respond to serve outside their active church community if asked by leaders.

In my experience some wards have been great at serving in the community for periods of time, then with a change in leadership, such efforts fade.  Many wards are average.  I have lived in a few wards that were downright terrible when it came to service.  The worst was a very rich ward full of business leaders, lawyers, doctors and their spouses that were too busy to even serve in the Church but were always very willing to throw large elaborate ward dinner parties.  The second worst were wards that had a core group of members that had been there forever, always held the leadership positions and looked at everyone else in the ward as a visitor or temporary.

[Chum]

27 minutes ago, Rain said:

I would like to say I would love to see our churches more open to charitable things. In weather emergencies you do see a lot of buildings opened who need a place to stay.  I haven't seen them opened on other things like I have with other churches. 

We used to be like that - 1990s and early 2000s. Our building was a RedCross hurricane shelter (up to Cat 3) until about 2006. Got used at least once.

27 minutes ago, Rain said:

So I do think we have room to improve, but I don't think it we are as dire in service as some feel.

Our tendency to cloister is entirely due to long-established local members. Move-ins rarely bring that mentality. However, leadership is always dominated by the old guard.

My take away lessons from the last 20 years: Only do what other members can't stop you from doing (did lots of moves). Making anything better simply isn't possible. Happiness and engagement are mutually exclusive.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Chum

[LoudmouthMormon]

3 hours ago, Islander said:

Today in Sacrament, not a peep about the issues affecting the community. In my view, more evidence of how disconnected, aloof and indifferent most (individual) members of our church are to what happens around them.

Dang- you're close to the fun in Boulder?  I'm glad you've found ways to be of service, even if it is through other churches.

Anyway, no, your experience is not the only one in this church.  I know my stake has agreements with local governments to swing into action in times of emergency.  We have MOUs for use of our buildings as emergency shelters, ways to call on and activate a volunteer workforce, and probably other things I don't know about.  One of our former bishops keeps a trailer at his house.  It's a mobile kitchen trailer, self contained with refrigeration, meant to be driven near a disaster, and it can feed hundreds of volunteers a day.  He tells me he takes it out a couple times a year to this or that disaster.  Sometimes it's a good year, and one of the times is a training exercise only.

It's possible your stake has such things in place too, but it wasn't needed.  900 displaced families within shouting distance of several large cities, means hotel rooms are a much better option than cramming people into a cultural hall.  It's been a week - perhaps there'll be a helping hands effort as things move into the disaster cleanup phases.

Do you have the JustServe app?  Have you looked at it?

Edited January 3, 2022 by LoudmouthMormon

[bluebell]

My city uses the stakes to coordinate their emergency responses during disasters or weather events. 

I'm the emergency preparedness specialist in my ward, which means that it's my job to make sure every house in my ward boundaries is covered by a block captain (does not have to be a member) who is in charge of reporting on the needs of the 12-16 houses assigned to him or her if things go south. 

Block captains make sure each home in their charge has placards (which I get from the stake coordinator, who gets them from the city) so they can alert their captains (or members of the ward's emergency committee, which is basically all members of the ward council) if they are ok or if they need help.

The captains then record that information and get it to our church building, which is designated as a  gather-point during an emergency, into my hands or the stake hands.  Then the stake takes that information to the city so help can be coordinated at that level.

I've never lived somewhere where the city took advantage of the church's resources and organizational skills to the same extent, in case of disaster.  It's been interesting to see how well organized it all is, with most members not have a CLUE of the systems that are in place or the people in their wards who keep them working on their behalf.

[SkyRock]

My ward and stake is full of people that could write checks for any need, with very generous tithes and fast offerings. There is a lot of community service, not checks, as well.

The youth regularly serve at the food bank and other community needs.  Our stake works directly with other churches in filling needs.  Last month the stake helped a Jewish congregation fill holiday needs for poor children (of neither faith).

Maybe some areas have less engaged members, but I haven't seen it, having lived in different areas around the country over my adult years.  We can all do more, but this thread is an odd criticism given my experience. 

[poptart]

2 hours ago, Chum said:

If it was something I could do alone, I generally did.  Bear in mind we are talking many dozen of attempts of a couple of decades.

Guessing you're following people just walking away from churches?  I do wonder with how political they are now, when things really do get violent how those people will be treated.  I know there are good Christians out there but let's face it, the USA has done a fine job of ruining the things that made US society work, churches among them.  So many millennials feel scorned, bitter and angry at American Christianity, these people outnumber and outvote many of them.  Think what gets me the most, people don't think of the consequences.  When people get as angry and bitter as they are now, they don't forget it.  They wait for the right moment to lash out as we saw with the riots, will be real interesting to see how the next round plays out.

It's people like the LDS faithful I feel for, for all the bad eggs I've seen (They were few......) the overwhelming majority of Mormons I've known have been fantastic people.  It's so sad when good people get the same label as the idiots causing the problems, such is life.  

[Rain]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Dang- you're close to the fun in Boulder?  I'm glad you've found ways to be of service, even if it is through other churches.

Anyway, no, your experience is not the only one in this church.  I know my stake has agreements with local governments to swing into action in times of emergency.  We have MOUs for use of our buildings as emergency shelters, ways to call on and activate a volunteer workforce, and probably other things I don't know about.  One of our former bishops keeps a trailer at his house.  It's a mobile kitchen trailer, self contained with refrigeration, meant to be driven near a disaster, and it can feed hundreds of volunteers a day.  He tells me he takes it out a couple times a year to this or that disaster.  Sometimes it's a good year, and one of the times is a training exercise only.

It's possible your stake has such things in place too, but it wasn't needed.  900 displaced families within shouting distance of several large cities, means hotel rooms are a much better option than cramming people into a cultural hall.  It's been a week - perhaps there'll be a helping hands effort as things move into the disaster cleanup phases.

Do you have the JustServe app?  Have you looked at it?

Here is something that was explained to me as a specialist when JustServe came out - it allows charities to put up their needs so they don't have to spend so much limited time answering how people can help.

Then I saw the reason why in action.  The leader of the charity I am with is slammed.  I would not be surprised if she puts in 50-60 hours of volunteer work every week.  She is constantly getting texts, calls and emails.  She has to prioritize them.  Unfortunately that means an email that says "what can I do to help" is put behind a call arranging the apartments of 6 families.  Just Serve allows her to have nearly any question about helping out there for anyone and how to do it.  Don't get me wrong,  she loves people wanting to help, but Just Serve allows more people to help more people.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

My city uses the stakes to coordinate their emergency responses during disasters or weather events. 

I'm the emergency preparedness specialist in my ward, which means that it's my job to make sure every house in my ward boundaries is covered by a block captain (does not have to be a member) who is in charge of reporting on the needs of the 12-16 houses assigned to him or her if things go south. 

Block captains make sure each home in their charge has placards (which I get from the stake coordinator, who gets them from the city) so they can alert their captains (or members of the ward's emergency committee, which is basically all members of the ward council) if they are ok or if they need help.

The captains then record that information and get it to our church building, which is designated as a  gather-point during an emergency, into my hands or the stake hands.  Then the stake takes that information to the city so help can be coordinated at that level.

I've never lived somewhere where the city took advantage of the church's resources and organizational skills to the same extent, in case of disaster.  It's been interesting to see how well organized it all is, with most members not have a CLUE of the systems that are in place or the people in their wards who keep them working on their behalf.

Riverton, UT did this as well.  The city actually came to the church asking for help with it.  

[poptart]

3 hours ago, Rain said:

Then say you have a problem with your ward, not the church.  Also make sure you know what the members of the church are doing on their own before accusing them of being indifferent and aloof. You might be able to judge some of the members in your ward (not all as they won't all tell you), but there are so many in the church that do serve.  

 

I used to be real bad about fault finding, when life does bad things to you it's hard, I get it.  Anymore I do try to see the good more, if it's one people I almost always give the benefit of the doubt to now it's members.  Sure, there are bad eggs but even they are looked out for, it's how functional communities work.  That and well, like many places some churches/wards are just lousy, find another one.  

This summer I got to know some of the more distant relatives on my fathers side, first time in my life I really got to know the good ones.  I can see the LDS influence, that and with mom having gone to BYUH and me being a huge supporter of the church, we've been welcomed.  He just called too, he knows we're not near the fires but we sure got dumped on with snow and it's just us out here.  With the exception of my widow aunt no one has ever done that till now.  Sure, there are bad members but that's true with almost everything now in this country, from what i've seen even the bad the LDS have are tame.  It's sickening to see what other churches are doing nowadays with their politics.  I'd imagine Jesus isn't too happy with a lot of folks right now.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, Islander said:

I am not interested in the "corporate effort". Christ never spoke about that. I am interest in the personal effort. The sacrifice that costs US time, energy, money, effort, the tangible hand that touches the lives of others though which people can see the love of Christ flowing through us. Lots of people donate lots of money for the wrong reasons but will never lift a finger to go and do the work. In the United States is the most common form of "help". Write a check and forget about it. 

Christ organized a church to coordinate help. And there are many ways to give help, giving money among them. 
 

To be effective in serving others requires organization. 

Edited January 3, 2022 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

You can judge your local members for not being more involved in a cause that is important to you, if you want...but you have no idea what causes and efforts they are involved in that are important to them, while you sit at home and bad talk people on Internet forums.

Being a Christian is more than just getting involved in major events, it is how we behave and treat people everyday.   Just because there was no formal discussion at church doesn’t mean no one is doing anything.  Heck, how do you know that others in your ward aren’t complaining about you for doing and saying nothing at church?  That would be a mistake to do blindly judge you, right???

Edited January 3, 2022 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

You can judge your local members for not being more involved in a cause that is important to you, if you want...but you have no idea what causes and efforts they are involved in that are important to them, while you sit at home and bad talk people on Internet forums.

Being a Christian is more than just getting involved in major events, it is how we behave and treat people everyday.   Just because there was no formal discussion at church doesn’t mean no one is doing anything.  Heck, how do you know that others in your ward aren’t complaining about you for doing and saying nothing at church?  That would be a mistake to do blindly judge you, right???

I presume no one here is worried about California fires.

I have never seen those discussed here

Likewise with us, but for Utah fires

Do you know what fires they are talking about?

Edited January 3, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Chum]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

Guessing you're following people just walking away from churches?

We were talking about service. I belonged to a ward that refused to interact/serve with the community unless directed to by the stake. Anyone who brought it up would be told "Feel free to do so yourself". It was part of the cloistering mentality that ran thru the old guard, who endlessly wound up in charge.

I didn't leave. I attended but withdrew to protect myself. It had become an insular group and left little to engage with. In the end, it was lessons+politics from the pulpit and then go home. The distance that Covid brought was an enormous blessing. A larger blessing was our recent move away.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Chum

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Chum said:

We were talking about service. I belonged to a ward that refused to interact/serve with the community unless directed to by the stake. Anyone who brought it up would be told "Feel free to do so yourself". It was part of the cloistering mentality that ran thru the old guard, who endlessly wound up in charge.

How is it a “cloistering mentality” to encourage individuals to support their favorite causes on their own? Seems that a “cloistering mentality” would do the opposite. 

[Chum]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

How is it a “cloistering mentality” to encourage individuals to support their favorite causes on their own? Seems that a “cloistering mentality” would do the opposite. 

I did not say individuals were cloistered.