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What is the LGBT policy goal for the Church


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Posted
17 hours ago, california boy said:

Your response has nothing to do with what I asked.  You and the Church are asking me and others who are gay to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life.  I am curious.  Can you name 10 reasons why I would want to strive for the Celestial Kingdom?  And you can't even give me 10 reasons to make such a commitment.  How about 5 reasons. Or can you not even think of 5 reasons to take this action.  It is a simple request.  If you or the Church can not give 5 reasons why someone who is LGBT to make this kind of commitment, then why would anyone in their right mind make such a commitment?  Seems like a fair question to me, and one that shouldn't be dodged.

Are we speaking of a believer or one who never did or no longer believes? I wonder what those who have made such a sacrifice would answer to your challenge? 

Posted
2 hours ago, Nofear said:

I think there is only one reason needed: “And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.”

I am very grateful that your cross is not one I have to bear. But, I have also never met anyone who does not have a cross of fome sort. To each of us is given a mortal experience suited to our needs.

Do you believe that you have to be a member of the LDS Church to take up the cross of Jesus?  If not, then there still doesn't seem to be an answer to my question.  And what does that have to say about what the Church has to even offer the LGBT community?

Posted
2 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Are we speaking of a believer or one who never did or no longer believes? I wonder what those who have made such a sacrifice would answer to your challenge? 

I no longer believe that the leaders of the Church are guided by God.  Just being honest here.  While I no longer believe in the divine claims of the Church, I do believe that the Church does teach good moral principles and it is a community full of good people.  But it is not a unique institution that is offering that kind of fellowship.  

What I really want to know is what you as a believing member think the Church offers someone who is LGBT that is enough to get them to give up their love, break up their family and live a celibate life without any affection.  What are just 5 benefits that you see is offered to those that are LGBT that make such a very human needs sacrifice?

Posted
25 minutes ago, california boy said:

 

What I really want to know is what you as a believing member think the Church offers someone who is LGBT that is enough to get them to give up their love, break up their family and live a celibate life without any affection.  What are just 5 benefits that you see is offered to those that are LGBT that make such a very human needs sacrifice?

Why do you ask us? Ask those who have done it what they saw. 

Also, I'm sorry, but that's a really narrow definition of "affection" which I do not accept. Another word may be appropriate, but I think "affection" is broader than romantic/sexual interaction. 

Posted
49 minutes ago, california boy said:

Do you believe that you have to be a member of the LDS Church to take up the cross of Jesus?

Discipleship and devotion to Christ does not mean membership in his Church. Similarly, most commandments apply to all. It is your prerogative to deny any of those commandments exist. Nonetheless, it is not my place to judge but to love all my brothers and sisters without condition.

Posted
1 hour ago, california boy said:

I no longer believe that the leaders of the Church are guided by God.  Just being honest here.  While I no longer believe in the divine claims of the Church, I do believe that the Church does teach good moral principles and it is a community full of good people.  But it is not a unique institution that is offering that kind of fellowship.  

What I really want to know is what you as a believing member think the Church offers someone who is LGBT that is enough to get them to give up their love, break up their family and live a celibate life without any affection.  What are just 5 benefits that you see is offered to those that are LGBT that make such a very human needs sacrifice?

I fully concede that if you don’t have a firm belief that the church is all it purports to be, there are no benefits to such a sacrifice.  

Posted
4 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

I'm late to reply to your comment, but I fall into this category. I've made a few posts in the last month or two about finding my place in the Lord's restored Church as a man who has been attracted to men for quite some time.

In fact I'm about to propose to my girlfriend of over two years this month (after much growth and communication, as well as spending a lot of time every week in the Temple over the last few months since they reopened in my area).

Ahhh!

I hope it is a sweet and wonderful occasion for both of you. 

Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Calm said:

I hope it is a sweet and wonderful occasion for both of you. 

Thank you!!

I go where He leads me. It's taken a lot of refining to come to this threshold.

 

Edit: The answer to the question of how, why, and everything else is to grow close to the Lord's voice and let that be your confidence. If He invites you to act then He's already seen that you can succeed and be happy as long you keep Him as your life's first priority. Nothing in mortality will be perfect, but He knows you and will tailor His guidance to your situation. Hear Him, and be determined to let God prevail at any cost.

Edited by Gillebre
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Why do you ask us? Ask those who have done it what they saw. 

Also, I'm sorry, but that's a really narrow definition of "affection" which I do not accept. Another word may be appropriate, but I think "affection" is broader than romantic/sexual interaction. 

I am asking you because I really want to here what YOU believe are the reasons why any LGBT person would make the kind of sacrifice that is being asked.  It is a pretty serious price to make.  But what exactly do you think are at least 5  making such a sacrifice

 

I agree with affection not being the exactly right word.  But I think you do understand my intent.

 

Edited by california boy
Posted
3 hours ago, Nofear said:

Discipleship and devotion to Christ does not mean membership in his Church. Similarly, most commandments apply to all. It is your prerogative to deny any of those commandments exist. Nonetheless, it is not my place to judge but to love all my brothers and sisters without condition.

I agree with everything you have said.  But if I am reading your post correctly, you are basically saying that there are no real reason for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice, let alone 5 reasons.  Is that what you intended to say?  If not, I would still love to hear 5 reasons for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice.

Posted
3 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

I fully concede that if you don’t have a firm belief that the church is all it purports to be, there are no benefits to such a sacrifice.  

What I am really asking is if I did believe, and was willing to make such a sacrifice, what would be 5 reasons to make that sacrifice.  What do you think those 5 benefits of making that sacrifice.

Posted
2 hours ago, Gillebre said:

I'm late to reply to your comment, but I fall into this category. I've made a few posts in the last month or two about finding my place in the Lord's restored Church as a man who has been attracted to men for quite some time.

In fact I'm about to propose to my girlfriend of over two years this month (after much growth and communication, as well as spending a lot of time every week in the Temple over the last few months since they reopened in my area).

Ahhh!

Well congratulations on your pending engagement.  I am happy that you can be that attracted to someone of the opposite sex.  That makes a huge difference because you can participate in the Plan of Happiness,  just like everyone else.

For those that can not be attracted to the opposite sex, I can't really see even 5 reasons to leave the person they love, and end up living the rest of their life celibate and without any intimate relationship.

Posted
4 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Also, I'm sorry, but that's a really narrow definition of "affection" which I do not accept. Another word may be appropriate, but I think "affection" is broader than romantic/sexual interaction. 

And what of those who father children and then realize they can't lie anymore?

There HAD to be "something" there to enable them to..... have children and affection for a woman.

That's what I don't think I will ever understand.

Posted
1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And what of those who father children and then realize they can't lie anymore?

There HAD to be "something" there to enable them to..... have children and affection for a woman.

That's what I don't think I will ever understand.

Imagination is a thing.

Also, at the risk of being incredibly crude with the right tools and enough time I could probably force any man to orgasm against their will even if they were utterly disgusted by me and my methods. That is an extreme example but surely if that works far less extreme measures work in the lives of people everywhere.

Also, sex doesn’t require affection. It doesn’t even require attraction.

Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Also, at the risk of being incredibly crude

Thank you. I was trying to think of an accurate, but respectful way and it all seemed too technical/clinical. All I managed was ”Sex doesn’t require attraction, just arousal.”

Best coming from a male given it is describing the male experience in this case I think. 
 

Would it be accurate to say male arousal may often be more mechanical than emotional?  As in friction is enough at times, assuming that makes sense. 

Edited by Calm
Posted
7 hours ago, california boy said:

I agree with everything you have said.  But if I am reading your post correctly, you are basically saying that there are no real reason for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice, let alone 5 reasons.  Is that what you intended to say?  If not, I would still love to hear 5 reasons for an LGBT person to make such a sacrifice.

No, going back to my original response there is only one reason any of us need to make any "sacrifice" and that is that our Savior has asked to do so. He asks us to obey the commandments. You don't believe it is a commandment from God to not engage in homosexual behavior. I do. And that one belief that it is what Christ wants me to do is all that I would need.

That said, there are probably things God eventually wants of me that I am in self-denial of. Things that I would willfully disobey if I was actively asked to change. I believe that Christ in his mercy often avoids engaging us on things he knows we would disobey anyway and focuses more on the things that we might change in our current state. If we work with him on the smaller things first, we change and eventually we are brought to some of the items we initially would have disobeyed on. As such, I try to avoid judging others because they sin differently than I do.

Posted
On 10/2/2021 at 12:04 AM, california boy said:

Your response has nothing to do with what I asked.  You and the Church are asking me and others who are gay to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life.  I am curious.  Can you name 10 reasons why I would want to strive for the Celestial Kingdom?  And you can't even give me 10 reasons to make such a commitment.  How about 5 reasons. Or can you not even think of 5 reasons to take this action.  It is a simple request.  If you or the Church can not give 5 reasons why someone who is LGBT to make this kind of commitment, then why would anyone in their right mind make such a commitment?  Seems like a fair question to me, and one that shouldn't be dodged.

Since you were once a member, you already know the reasons why we strive for the Celestial Kingdom.  If that's not enough, I'm not sure what I can add.  It's comforting to know a loving Heavenly Father wants all of us to be in the Celestial Kingdom, no matter who we are or even what sins we've committed in the past.  That's reason enough.  But He does ask we keep his commandments, even those that we feel aren't fair or go against what we believe is our natural behavior.  It's not easy, but what distinguishes true followers is they believe ANY sacrifice is worth it for exaltation.

I'm not asking you to give up the person you love the most.  Through His prophets, God has issued commandments against having intimate connections with another man (I'm assuming you are referring to icky gay sex stuff there).  I'm doubtful we'll be able to stand before the judgement seat and convince God that He asked too much of us in return for exaltation.  So the question really goes back to you:  are you willing to make every sacrifice necessary for exaltation?  It's the same question we all have to ask ourselves, often over and over again as we go throughout life.  Fortunately, many have testified they have received reassurances from the Holy Ghost that it is worth it so hopefully that can give hope to others.

Posted
10 hours ago, Gillebre said:

I'm late to reply to your comment, but I fall into this category. I've made a few posts in the last month or two about finding my place in the Lord's restored Church as a man who has been attracted to men for quite some time.

In fact I'm about to propose to my girlfriend of over two years this month (after much growth and communication, as well as spending a lot of time every week in the Temple over the last few months since they reopened in my area).

Ahhh!

Thank you very much for sharing!  I really appreciate it.

Posted
9 hours ago, california boy said:

What I am really asking is if I did believe, and was willing to make such a sacrifice, what would be 5 reasons to make that sacrifice.  What do you think those 5 benefits of making that sacrifice.

Humba Tuhan gave a much more elaborate list than I will. I just want to respond as succinctly as I can to your question to me.  Now that you have agreed to the supposition that you really did believe, here are some reasons. 
 

1. Knowing God is pleased with you. 
2.  Knowing you are headed towards exaltation. 
3.  Knowing that you qualify for blessings that are predicated upon obedience you would otherwise miss out on.  
4. receiving those blessings. 
5.  Knowing that if the loved ones you ‘leave’ (and you don’t have to leave their lives) will receive similar blessings if they also choose to follow Gods commandments. 
6. Knowing you are an example to others to lead them to Exaltation as well. 
7. Having the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. 
8.  Being able to attend the temple for personal succor and revelation. 
 

There’s 8 I came up with without even having to work very hard.  Now - protestation to this list based on doubt rather than belief will render this list moot. 
 

I am in no way insinuating that this would make that decision easy at. I can’t imagine how hard it would be.  Especially if you already have an established same sex marriage and children.  

also, as some have said, I think people put too much focus on sex - without getting too far into the weeds, there are plenty of hetero marriages that are missing a sexual component/attraction for one reason or another that still stay together in love and faith, raise great families, and live a measure of fulfillment and joy knowing they are choosing righteousness over looking for the missing sexual fulfillment. 

Posted
8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Imagination is a thing.

Also, at the risk of being incredibly crude with the right tools and enough time I could probably force any man to orgasm against their will even if they were utterly disgusted by me and my methods. That is an extreme example but surely if that works far less extreme measures work in the lives of people everywhere.

Also, sex doesn’t require affection. It doesn’t even require attraction.

Yeah, but you're gonna voluntarily commit to that ahead of time?

 

Posted
8 hours ago, Calm said:

Thank you. I was trying to think of an accurate, but respectful way and it all seemed too technical/clinical. All I managed was ”Sex doesn’t require attraction, just arousal.”

Best coming from a male given it is describing the male experience in this case I think. 
 

Would it be accurate to say male arousal may often be more mechanical than emotional?  As in friction is enough at times, assuming that makes sense. 

Arousal is a biggie, and for males it is largely visual. Yes other things work, but one does not commit one's life to "other" things.

The obvious alternative here is clear and that is bisexuality which is common, but also then a matter of choice between "ok" and "great".

You choose "ok"?

Made babies?

You don't switch for "great"

You have made a commitment to your family as well.

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