Chum Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, gopher said: Sorry you've been made to feel unwelcome at church. Hopefully that will change. I'm straight so I know I'll feel welcome in every ward. 8 minutes ago, gopher said: If "ceaseless political/anti-lgbt pulpit messaging" is occurring at church, it should stop. The South is deep into a politics addiction crisis. It's wreaking havoc everywhere, including in our chapels.
california boy Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, gopher said: I haven't read stories of anyone wanting to come unto Christ by repenting, being baptized, taking upon themselves the name of Christ, and keeping the commandments being turned away. If they exist, they are owed an apology and request for forgiveness. And since you are Canadian, I think you mean Popcorn Chicken Poutine Oh yeah. To join the LGBT community we also won't require you to break up your family and divorce the love of your life. 1
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 23 minutes ago, california boy said: What this really tells me is that you have no idea about the LGBT community and how many people support and are involved in that support. Maybe you should get involved a little yourself and see if you are welcomed with open arms. Unlike the LDS church there are no roadblocks, no requirements, no forbidding you to marry, no exclusion from any part of the community. You can simply be who you are and live your life with the person you love even if you have an unnatural attraction to the opposite sex. We even let you hug and hold hands with the person you love. You would think that just the number of people leaving the church over this issue would give you some idea how many people are involved in the LGBT community and the complete lack of roadblocks that are thrown up in order to participate. If the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were as welcoming, as the LGBT community we wouldn't even be having a thread like this. There would literally be nothing to talk about. You have a good point. It's hard to feel welcome in the church when you want to openly rebel against the commandments of God. But for those who are striving to keep the commandments, it seems to work, at least for many people.
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 19 minutes ago, Chum said: I'm straight so I know I'll feel welcome in every ward. The South is deep into a politics addiction crisis. It's wreaking havoc everywhere, including in our chapels. Ok, so you mean in your ward. I'm in the south too, but I don't see any havoc being wreaked around me.
SeekingUnderstanding Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, gopher said: Ok, so you mean in your ward. I'm in the south too, but I don't see any havoc being wreaked around me. Based on your posts in this thread, I’m not sure you would be in a position to know. However, since I believe the church isn’t true, all I can say is carry on! 1
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 23 minutes ago, california boy said: Oh yeah. To join the LGBT community we also won't require you to break up your family and divorce the love of your life. But you can't provide a path to eternal life so I think the church wins this one.
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Based on your posts in this thread, I’m not sure you would be in a position to know. However, since I believe the church isn’t true, all I can say is carry on! lol, wat?
Chum Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, gopher said: Ok, so you mean in your ward. I never said it was just my ward because it isn't just my ward. It's possible that far away wards have Sundays w/o endless political flavoring. 7 minutes ago, gopher said: I'm in the south too, but I don't see any havoc being wreaked around me. If you say you don't see political harm, I believe you. 1
Canadiandude Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 44 minutes ago, gopher said: And since you are Canadian, I think you mean Popcorn Chicken Poutine No, I meant popcorn 🍿 but that too sounds delicious. 😅
Canadiandude Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, gopher said: But you can't provide a path to eternal life so I think the church wins this one. Isn’t this called “begging the question”? Remember that your assumptions and interpretation of the data does not necessarily match other interpretations or compete in terms of accuracy. But that’s a debate for another day. 1
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 21 minutes ago, Chum said: I never said it was just my ward because it isn't just my ward. It's possible that far away wards have Sundays w/o endless political flavoring. If you say you don't see political harm, I believe you. I wasn't sure if you were exaggerating or if you were just looking for a reason to insult the south. Disparaging the south is a serious offense where I live.
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 14 minutes ago, Canadiandude said: Isn’t this called “begging the question”? Remember that your assumptions and interpretation of the data does not necessarily match other interpretations or compete in terms of accuracy. But that’s a debate for another day. yeah, you are probably right.
Chum Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 14 minutes ago, gopher said: I wasn't sure if you were exaggerating or if you were just looking for a reason to insult the south. Disparaging the south is a serious offense where I live. Quick to offense, slow to change, easily trampled feelings. I get it. Fortunately my heritage - father from WV & Polish mother from Buffalo - grants me wide disparaging rights.
california boy Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, gopher said: But you can't provide a path to eternal life so I think the church wins this one. I am sure with your attitudes towards LGBT, you are well on your way to eternal glory and Celestial a crown. Edited October 1, 2021 by california boy 3
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 57 minutes ago, Chum said: Quick to offense, slow to change, easily trampled feelings. I get it. Looks like you nailed it.
gopher Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 36 minutes ago, california boy said: I am sure with your attitudes towards LPSG, you are well on your way to eternal glory and Celestial a crown. Crap, I looked up LPSG so I could understand what you meant. I guess my attitude towards them is, envy?
Chum Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 15 minutes ago, gopher said: Looks like you nailed it. Yes!!! #HillPride
california boy Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 2 hours ago, gopher said: But you can't provide a path to eternal life so I think the church wins this one. You are asking me to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life. I am curious. Can you name 10 reasons why I would want to strive for the Celestial Kingdom? 1
Chum Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 (edited) 19 minutes ago, california boy said: You are asking me to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life. Speaking as a member of a secular society, I'm not wholly clear what the point of marriage is. For example, one purpose is to cash in on financial incentives. Another is to avoid legal hassles. In my mind, those are because we Christians has fully crapped up marriage with tons of tangential stuff. What if we got rid of all that crap? What's left that wouldn't exist under a committed, defined cohabitation? Clarifying that this isn't a trojan horse for a pro/anti agenda. I'm looking to give secular marriage a fresh rethink. Edited October 1, 2021 by Chum
california boy Posted October 1, 2021 Posted October 1, 2021 9 minutes ago, Chum said: Speaking as a member of a secular society, I'm not wholly clear what the point of marriage is. For example, one purpose is to cash in on financial incentives. Another is to avoid legal hassles. In my mind, those are because we Christians has fully crapped up marriage with tons of tangential stuff. What if we got rid of all that crap? What's left that wouldn't exist under a committed, defined cohabitation? Clarifying that this isn't a trojan horse for a pro/anti agenda. I'm looking to give secular marriage a fresh rethink. I have been with my partner for 12 years now. We aren't married and don't really have any plans to. Our financial situation doesn't really need marriage to change it. And if I did marry him, it seems like it would just upset the Mormon members of my family. So for me, no really incentive. And if anything, the Church has made marriage something that I shouldn't do. I have to say though, most of my gay friends are married.
gopher Posted October 2, 2021 Posted October 2, 2021 5 hours ago, california boy said: You are asking me to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life. I am curious. Can you name 10 reasons why I would want to strive for the Celestial Kingdom? Nope, it's not up to me to decide what you have to do to go to the Celestial Kingdom. I'm actually not a heartless troll - I do feel great compassion for you. I'm sure most who believe in God and trust in his prophets are struggling to understand where homosexuality fits in the plan of salvation. It's made even more difficult when every prophet that has discussed homosexual behavior has condemned it. There are no instances in the scriptures of anyone breaking this commandment being counted as righteous. If these really are the last days, it's difficult to imagine that God would wait until now to declare it no longer a sin. As also stated by others, I don't see a path forward for homosexual behavior to be removed as a serious sin. But it's not my decision.
Canadiandude Posted October 2, 2021 Posted October 2, 2021 36 minutes ago, gopher said: But it's not my decision No it’s not. Look, nobody here is ignorant of the church’s current set of policies & standards. ‘Prophets said so’ just ain’t gonna fly for some of us. 1
gopher Posted October 2, 2021 Posted October 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Canadiandude said: No it’s not. Great, glad we found some common ground 1 hour ago, Canadiandude said: Look, nobody here is ignorant of the church’s current set of policies & standards. ‘Prophets said so’ just ain’t gonna fly for some of us. I've seen lots of evidence around here to refute the first statement, but no matter. But when EVERY prophet says so it makes it difficult for believers to ignore. I didn't think you were a member or a believer so I wouldn't expect it to fly for you. Since I rarely post anything, I've exhausted my quota of posts for the next few months so I'm out. I thought it would be interesting to discuss the LGBT policy for believing members, but that isn't the direction this thread has gone.
california boy Posted October 2, 2021 Posted October 2, 2021 3 hours ago, gopher said: Nope, it's not up to me to decide what you have to do to go to the Celestial Kingdom. I'm actually not a heartless troll - I do feel great compassion for you. I'm sure most who believe in God and trust in his prophets are struggling to understand where homosexuality fits in the plan of salvation. It's made even more difficult when every prophet that has discussed homosexual behavior has condemned it. There are no instances in the scriptures of anyone breaking this commandment being counted as righteous. If these really are the last days, it's difficult to imagine that God would wait until now to declare it no longer a sin. As also stated by others, I don't see a path forward for homosexual behavior to be removed as a serious sin. But it's not my decision. Your response has nothing to do with what I asked. You and the Church are asking me and others who are gay to give up the person I love the most in the world, live a live without any intimate connection with another person for the rest of my life. I am curious. Can you name 10 reasons why I would want to strive for the Celestial Kingdom? And you can't even give me 10 reasons to make such a commitment. How about 5 reasons. Or can you not even think of 5 reasons to take this action. It is a simple request. If you or the Church can not give 5 reasons why someone who is LGBT to make this kind of commitment, then why would anyone in their right mind make such a commitment? Seems like a fair question to me, and one that shouldn't be dodged.
Nofear Posted October 2, 2021 Posted October 2, 2021 I think there is only one reason needed: “And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.” I am very grateful that your cross is not one I have to bear. But, I have also never met anyone who does not have a cross of fome sort. To each of us is given a mortal experience suited to our needs. 1
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