Talmage’s view on progression between kingdoms

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Do you believe then that there is still stuff for God the Father to learn?

Yes, absolutely.  Despite what McConkie taught.

[bOObOO]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Yes, absolutely.  Despite what McConkie taught.

 Like what, for example?.  Sincerely curious. What can you think of that our Father doesn't know right now at this very instant?  Do you think you can even think of something he hasn't already thought about? I'm flabbergasted that anyone could think so.

[JLHPROF]

53 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

 Like what, for example?.  Sincerely curious. What can you think of that our Father doesn't know right now at this very instant?  Do you think you can even think of something he hasn't already thought about? I'm flabbergasted that anyone could think so.

Truth is independent in the sphere in which it is placed.  If we believe that there are other Gods with their creations then it would be naive to think every God knows of creations that don't belong to him.  They aren't his stewardship.

Additionally the D&C tells us that when we enter the Celestial Kingdom that we will learn of a higher order of kingdoms.  Joseph taught that when Christ inherits his Father's kingdom the Father will take a higher exaltation.

So there are kingdoms and exaltations above the Celestial.

Both of those along with the infinite and constantly increasing nature of knowledge indicate that God can't possibly know absolutely everything.  But from our perspective God absolutely knows everything.  There is nothing we could encounter in this existence he doesn't know.  And that sure looks to us like omniscience.

[Gillebre]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Truth is independent in the sphere in which it is placed.  If we believe that there are other Gods with their creations then it would be naive to think every God knows of creations that don't belong to him.  They aren't his stewardship.

Additionally the D&C tells us that when we enter the Celestial Kingdom that we will learn of a higher order of kingdoms.  Joseph taught that when Christ inherits his Father's kingdom the Father will take a higher exaltation.

So there are kingdoms and exaltations above the Celestial.

Both of those along with the infinite and constantly increasing nature of knowledge indicate that God can't possibly know absolutely everything.  But from our perspective God absolutely knows everything.  There is nothing we could encounter in this existence he doesn't know.  And that sure looks to us like omniscience.

May I trouble you to share where I could find these references in the Doctrine and Covenants? 

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

May I trouble you to share where I could find these references in the Doctrine and Covenants? 

 

D&C 130:9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

 

D&C 88:36 All kingdoms have a law given;
37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

 

Joseph Smith - What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; 

 

Abraham 3: 9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

Edited August 20, 2021 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

 

D&C 130:9 This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.
10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known;

 

D&C 88:36 All kingdoms have a law given;
37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.
38 And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

 

Joseph Smith - What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. My Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to My Father, so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt Him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His Father, and inherits what God did before; 

 

Abraham 3: 9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

I agree that "omniscience" is relative and contextual.

I think the link between divine faith and divine knowledge is divine action, and we learn that as less perfect beings in our probationary state. Foreknowledge to me is an aspect of faith, making faith and knowledge two forms of the same thing; just a matter of timing or sequence. Perhaps we can call this “expectation” in that we expect that which we have faith in to come to pass, and we expect our knowledge to work in accomplishing that.

I say this to show that the link between viewing our expectations as faith or knowledge is action and application. God can say, “I knew from before the foundation of the world, that through the Atonement of Christ, you would be exalted by His merits, (a) and you chose well (or b) but you chose otherwise.”

This is why I wonder if the following prayer or expectation is correct: “I thank Thee for the Atonement of Thy Son, and in case I’m not on the right track or direction to fulfil that covenant by the final judgement, I thank Thee that I can keep trying post-probation and after the resurrection from whatever  kingdom I am willing to receive (for now, anyway).”

Edited August 21, 2021 by CV75

[CV75]

I'm also thinking that, since the atonement of Christ was instituted from before the foundation of the world, and the world is a probationary state, it will have its "decommissioning" once the probationary state is complete, preventing further progression between kingdoms. The power of Christ takes over, granted as a fulness of the Father upon His fulfilling His atoning mission, and this power, not the atoning power, maintains the various degrees and kingdoms through the ministrations described in D&C 76. At some point the works and effects for which He atoned have an end, and His opposing, completed redemption would not bring them back as a source and means of probation (choosing between good and evil; good, better and best; etc.). We have such terms as endless life, endless punishment, but not endless probation.

So as omniscience was brought up in connection with eternal progress, I'm thinking that God as a Couple, Family, Council or Church of the Firstborn, possess all exalted knowledge, and the lesser kingdoms (and their inhabitants) serve as stewards, repositories or archives of lesser knowledge that can be applied under Their direction.

Edited August 22, 2021 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

I'm also thinking that, since the atonement of Christ was instituted from before the foundation of the world, and the world is a probationary state, it will have its "decommissioning" once the probationary state is complete, preventing further progression between kingdoms.

Not particularly infinite if that is the case.  But at the same time if resurrection really is the "final judgement" then repentance that would effect that judgement would have to have an end.

But I also don't believe that progression stops.

Quote

So as omniscience was brought up in connection with eternal progress, I'm thinking that God as a Couple, Family, Council or Church of the Firstborn, possess all exalted knowledge, and the lesser kingdoms (and their inhabitants) serve as stewards, repositories or archives of lesser knowledge that can be applied under Their direction.

All exalted knowledge for their sphere and the lesser kingdoms sure.  But all knowledge for everything everywhere that will ever exist?  

[CV75]

11 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Not particularly infinite if that is the case.  But at the same time if resurrection really is the "final judgement" then repentance that would effect that judgement would have to have an end.

But I also don't believe that progression stops.

All exalted knowledge for their sphere and the lesser kingdoms sure.  But all knowledge for everything everywhere that will ever exist?  

I think the atonement of Christ is as infinite as “omniscience” (“all knowledge for everything everywhere that will ever exist”), that is, it is simply indeterminately more magnificent that what I can comprehend in this estate. I believe that progression continues in immortality by virtue of the functions of time and activities accomplished (“life”), often in concert with and dependent upon the ministrations of more advanced beings.

[bOObOO]

 

On 8/20/2021 at 3:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

  If we believe that there are other Gods with their creations then it would be naive to think every God knows of creations that don't belong to him.  They aren't his stewardship.

First, just a pet peeve of mine, I prefer to think of persons who are God rather than multiple Gods because in my perspective every person who is God is the same kind of being, thus all are God and each one is God.  I understand the word Gods, though.

Second. I classify knowledge by each type of thing there is to be known, so for example when I say I know what horses are what I mean is that I know and am aware of the existence of that kind of being.  I do not mean I know where every horse is.  So while there may be some other horses in the universe that technically do not belong to our Father in heaven, even though we often say everything is his and what he offers is the opportunity to share in everything he has, including his horses, I still believe he knows everything there is to know about horses even though he may not know where every horse is in the universe.  And the same goes for sparrows, too, I believe.  He knows when any of his sparrows fall, and he knows where and why they fall, in all of his creations, but yes I suppose there may be some other sparrows which are not any of his sparrows where he has no idea of whether or not they have fallen.

On 8/20/2021 at 3:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

Additionally the D&C tells us that when we enter the Celestial Kingdom that we will learn of a higher order of kingdoms. 

I believe that will be the celestial order, which is a higher order than we (on this telestial world now) are aware of now.

On 8/20/2021 at 3:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

Joseph taught that when Christ inherits his Father's kingdom the Father will take a higher exaltation.

We are also told that what essentially happens or will happen to those who receive the greatest blessings is that they will share in all that our Father has, speaking as if we can gain no more than all that our Father has.  As joint-heirs with Jesus Christ.

On 8/20/2021 at 3:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

So there are kingdoms and exaltations above the Celestial.

No, I think you have a misunderstanding.  It is generally understood and taught in scripture that our Father is of the celestial order and that the celestial order is the highest order which he and anyone else can possibly attain.

On 8/20/2021 at 3:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

Both of those along with the infinite and constantly increasing nature of knowledge indicate that God can't possibly know absolutely everything. 

Would you be more comfortable with the idea that our Father knows every kind or type of thing there is to be known?  That while he may not know of every person, especially someone who hasn't been born as a spirit and technically does not exist except within the spirit of his/her parents from which his/her spirit will be created whenever his/her parents reproduce to produce his/her spirit, that he does know in general by kind or type what all people are and how all people are reproduced by their parents and how well developed all people can become  so that in some sense we could say our Father knows all people, by just knowing all people in general?  Sometimes understanding the truth is very simple and it is just that some words sometimes get in the way.

 

On 8/20/2021 at 3:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

But from our perspective God absolutely knows everything.  There is nothing we could encounter in this existence he doesn't know.  And that sure looks to us like omniscience.

Well, since our perspective is all we will ever have as our perspective, nothing else will ever come up.

Edited August 23, 2021 by bOObOO

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, bOObOO said:

No, I think you have a misunderstanding.  It is generally understood and taught in scripture that our Father is of the celestial order and that the celestial order is the highest order which he and anyone else can possibly attain.

If by generally understood and taught you mean by McConkie.  I disagree and so did Brigham.  There is no indication that Celestial is the ceiling in all of existence.
The very idea that what God has currently achieved is the highest anyone can ever progress to worlds without end is nonsense.

4 hours ago, bOObOO said:

Would you be more comfortable with the idea that our Father knows every kind or type of thing there is to be known? 

No, because this once again assumes a limit on knowledge.  Omniscience is a nonsense concept unless applied to a finite body of knowledge.

[CV75]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If by generally understood and taught you mean by McConkie.  I disagree and so did Brigham.  There is no indication that Celestial is the ceiling in all of existence.
The very idea that what God has currently achieved is the highest anyone can ever progress to worlds without end is nonsense.

No, because this once again assumes a limit on knowledge.  Omniscience is a nonsense concept unless applied to a finite body of knowledge.

I'm thinking that part of the barrier to progress between kingdoms is the inability to retain knowledge while experiences such as awe, enjoyment, amusement and entertainment, etc., and new experiences in these areas, can be enjoyed over and over again without progressing in a godly sense.

[bOObOO]

52 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The very idea that what God has currently achieved is the highest anyone can ever progress to worlds without end is nonsense.

More of the same is not really anything extra, in my perspective.  How much do you think he can learn about people, above what he already knows?  Do you think anything will ever surprise him?  As if he'll say, wow, I never knew that? 

52 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

No, because this once again assumes a limit on knowledge.  Omniscience is a nonsense concept unless applied to a finite body of knowledge.

I believe there are people who don't exist now other than innate in their ancestors, and that he'll learn about them whenever they are reproduced and given a name, but other than that kind of thing I believe yes he already knows every kind and type of thing.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

More of the same is not really anything extra, in my perspective.  How much do you think he can learn about people, above what he already knows?  Do you think anything will ever surprise him?  As if he'll say, wow, I never knew that? 

I don't believe it's merely more of the same any more than I believe God's progression is only in acquiring more kingdoms.
There are creations in existence that our Heavenly Father has absolutely nothing to do with.  There are as many Heavenly Father's out there as there are sands on the beach.
They don't all know everything about each other's kingdoms.

Knowledge is constantly increasing.  A poet in a different creation writes a beautiful sonnet that our Heavenly Father will never read.  A war creates a new nation on a distant world and our Heavenly Father has no knowledge of that nation.
Another Heavenly Father and his son call a prophet to testify of them and he writes a book of scripture containing eternal truths - our Heavenly Father may also know those eternal truths but he will likely never read the beauty of that scripture and testimony of another God.

And yes, I 100% believe there is progression beyond the Celestial.  A council of the Gods

[bOObOO]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't believe it's merely more of the same any more than I believe God's progression is only in acquiring more kingdoms.
There are creations in existence that our Heavenly Father has absolutely nothing to do with.  There are as many Heavenly Father's out there as there are sands on the beach.
They don't all know everything about each other's kingdoms.

Knowledge is constantly increasing.  A poet in a different creation writes a beautiful sonnet that our Heavenly Father will never read.  A war creates a new nation on a distant world and our Heavenly Father has no knowledge of that nation.
Another Heavenly Father and his son call a prophet to testify of them and he writes a book of scripture containing eternal truths - our Heavenly Father may also know those eternal truths but he will likely never read the beauty of that scripture and testimony of another God.

And yes, I 100% believe there is progression beyond the Celestial.  A council of the Gods

Thank you for attempting to come up with some examples of things you think our Father doesn't know and may never know.  I see those as examples of what you think than of what he doesn't know though.  We're talking about someone who can read the thoughts and intent of our heart and mind, from who knows how far away?  Is there maybe a limit to how far he can communicate with his mind reading ability?  No way to send out booster transmitters and receivers or piggy backing off of other people's minds/spirits to create a never ending network of information>?  A universal web spanning ever deeper and deeper into the universe with no limit to how many booster receivers and transmitters can be used?  So that all that every person sees and hears and touches and smells and tastes can be transmitted back to him so that he can sense all each person experiences as if he was there himself?  Something to work on if he doesn't already have a system like that. At least an idea worth considering.

I think celestial means more than you think it means.

[telnetd]

On 8/19/2021 at 1:14 PM, bluebell said:

I've always wondered how the doctrine that we are resurrected with the body that matches the glory of the kingdom we will go to, works with the idea that we could progress between kingdoms.

How do you understand this passage:

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, 
behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, 
therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your 
repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us 
to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in 
this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no 
labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; 
for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye 
go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body 
in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of 
your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the 
spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of 
the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil 
hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked"

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, telnetd said:

How do you understand this passage:

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, 
behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, 
therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your 
repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us 
to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in 
this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no 
labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; 
for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye 
go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body 
in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of 
your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the 
spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of 
the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil 
hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked"

I don't know.  It contradicts our teachings on doing work for those who had a chance to accept this gospel in this life but didn't.

[bOObOO]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

How do you understand this passage:

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, 
behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, 
therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your 
repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us 
to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in 
this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no 
labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; 
for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye 
go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body 
in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of 
your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the 
spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of 
the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil 
hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked"

The point he was making was that someone who would say he/she would repent later, but did not repent now, would still have the same spirit then as now and if not repenting now most likely would not repent later. So he/she should not say he/she would.

Death itself will not change how a person is.  His or her spirit will still be the same spirit after death as it is before death.  It was his way of trying to tell that person that what he/she was saying didn't ring true and didn't make sense in how repentance works.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:09 AM, Fether said:

I use to be staunchly against the idea of progression after final judgement. But then I realized that I had the same mindset as some Christians have when they declare “so-and-so is in hell and he will be there for all eternity!”. I find this to be extremely naive and short sighted.

Will our wants change in the afterlife? Will we be down to play video games for 2,000,000,000 years and then one day decide “I actually do want to be like God”? Will the removal of the veil reveal some eternal nature that we have, a way to see into the future that shows that we may never want eternal progression so we are happy in a lower kingdom? What does final judgement mean? Is there some universal law that prevents the other two kingdoms from progressing after final judgement?

Questions like these prevent us from really knowing.

And if we have filled the measure of our creation, and understand what that means wouldn't it be envy for somebody's bigger mansion that motivates us?

Isn't that like wanting to be a Stake President instead of a primary teacher for reasons of vanity?

I see the desire for a greater calling as evidence that we don't deserve it!

Accept the Lord's determination  and magnify it with humility and no pride!  Maybe he will call you to the "head of the table"

Hubris is a young man's game, and naked pride in the afterlife doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me

[bOObOO]

On 8/19/2021 at 9:09 AM, Fether said:

I use to be staunchly against the idea of progression after final judgement. But then I realized that I had the same mindset as some Christians have when they declare “so-and-so is in hell and he will be there for all eternity!”. I find this to be extremely naive and short sighted.

Will our wants change in the afterlife? Will we be down to play video games for 2,000,000,000 years and then one day decide “I actually do want to be like God”? Will the removal of the veil reveal some eternal nature that we have, a way to see into the future that shows that we may never want eternal progression so we are happy in a lower kingdom? What does final judgement mean? Is there some universal law that prevents the other two kingdoms from progressing after final judgement?

Questions like these prevent us from really knowing.

This is the crux of the issue I think.  If we knew what final judgment means, what it involves and why we call it a final judgment, then that would pretty much answer all of those other questions.

I think of our final judgment as something like a final exam in school.  A time for the Teacher to evaluate if we have learned enough to progress or if we need some remedial education, still rewarding everyone for the progress each has made.

So say for example that at the time of someone's final judgment, that person still hasn't learned enough to progress to celestial glory, but does qualify for terrestrial glory.  Simply meaning that he/she isn't ready to progress further at that particular time.

That would not necessarily mean that he/she would never be able to reach the point where he/she was ready to progress to celestial glory.  It would just mean that at the final judgment he/she was not ready at that particular time.

[echelon]

When looking for scriptures to find out why Talmage (or anyone) would believe in the finality of assigned kingdoms I found this in Mosiah 3 talking about judgement day:

25. And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

26 Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever.

Shrinking from the presence of God (Celestial Kingdom) from whence there is no return tells me there is no progression beyond entrance into the celestial kingdom, and even more so by the withholding of the atonement from them forever onwards. (suggesting a time limit on the availability of the atonement)

I don't like it but 'no more return' and forever withholding mercy after judgement seems final to me, at least into the celestial kingdom.

Yet D&C 76:88 says those in the telestial kingdom who receive of the ministering of angels 'shall be heirs of salvation', so I don't know what to believe as the two sources seem to conflict with each other.

Edited September 5, 2021 by echelon

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, echelon said:

When looking for scriptures to find out why Talmage (or anyone) would believe in the finality of assigned kingdoms I found this in Mosiah 3 talking about judgement day:

25. And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

You missed the key phrase.  "If they be evil".  Not even do evil, but actually be evil.

I would fully agree that if we are to remain evil there is no atonement, no repentance, and no progression.

But the whole idea of the higher kingdoms administering to the lower kingdoms would indicate to me that as long as they can learn and develop then they may not always "be evil".

[blueglass]

The earth is the Celestial Kingdom.  We better not poison or destroy it.  So sad that episode of Battlestar Gallactica when they finally arrive at earth and find it destroyed and uninhabitable due to a nuclear winter eons in the past. 

 

[echelon]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

You missed the key phrase.  "If they be evil".  Not even do evil, but actually be evil.

Thanks for making that distinction.  I went back to the chapter to understand the context and found more to it:

24 And thus saith the Lord: ... whereof they shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil.

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord...

In that light now it looks to me that while judged of our works, it is still up to us what we do with that consigned view after.  Mosiah says that people will feel so bad that they will shrink away (and likely give up hope), though it does not exclude the possibility of alternatively approaching God and applying the atonement to continue with our progression.

Edited September 5, 2021 by echelon

[Olmec Donald]

On 8/19/2021 at 1:53 PM, Gillebre said:

... will the Father ever stop trying to reach us, bless us, teach us...

Good point.  The Prodigal Son's father not only welcomed his return but ran out to meet him. 

On 8/19/2021 at 1:53 PM, Gillebre said:

... and will we ever reach a point where we are so darkened or so set in our ways that we lose the ability to grow and change?

The parable of the lost sheep seems to imply that the Good Shepherd does not give up on us.  Maybe He sees more in the least among us than we do. 

On 8/19/2021 at 1:53 PM, Gillebre said:

... does anyone have a thought as to the purpose of ministry from those greater glories to those in lesser glories?

Well if we are presently the inhabitants of a Telestial world, and more advanced souls would have us aspire to a Celestial one, then maybe advancement between kingdoms is already happening right here and right now.