Talmage’s view on progression between kingdoms

[ProphetShiloh]

18 minutes ago, webbles said:

Are you saying that even after we get judged here and are given immortality, that another cycle of creation will cause us to loose our immortality again and have us go through creation all over again to be judged again?  If so, what's the point of immortality or eternal life if we just keep repeating the cycle?

I am saying that those who receive immortality (salvation) will have continuity of their individual identity from world to world.  Each time they go from one world to the next, their soul is judged and they are assigned to a measure of glory in the following cycle in accordance with how well they kept their measure.

Getting to the place where you are granted eternal life doesn't happen easily in just a single cycle of creation.  Immortal souls must have many cycles of existence in order to be prepared to face the challenge of being proven true and faithful in all things in order to qualify them for exaltation.  Being in a rush to get there could leave you ill prepared and susceptible to fall and be worse off than if you had never been born.  This is why missionary work should be done only by constraint of the Holy Ghost.  Rushing people to get baptized into the Church could put them at a level of accountability that they are not prepared for.

The judgment that is rendered upon immortal souls remains fixed for each cycle of eternity.  Each cycle gives them an opportunity to advance, or the vulnerability to fail.  Someone could start out at the level of glory symbolized by "fish" (which is early Christianity, Catholicism, etc.) and then in another cycle they could be upgraded and receive a judgment that ascribes to them the measure of glory symbolized by "creeping things on dry ground" (Protestants).  In each cycle they can advance more and more toward having exposure and involvement with the time when God "makes man in his own image and likeness".

The measure of glory of "man" (the LDS Restoration of the fullness of the Father) is when people advance from the realms of spirit prison to eternal life.  Among other blessings, receiving eternal life is when they have opened up to them the possibility to have an eternal inheritance in the Father's Kingdom.  This includes the ability to have an eternal family.  So long as they remain faithful, they will be foreordained to be born into circumstances that afford them the knowledge and intelligence of the fullness of celestial law so that they can live their life as a being who is fully conscious of their eternal identity that spans from world to world.  They also get to live in a civic system that honors and respects individual sovereignty, as opposed to, for example, Christians being used as street lamps in the Roman Empire.

Immortal souls who are still in spirit prison do not have the blessings of eternal life assured to them.  The level of accountability of "man" would put them at risk of being rather seriously condemned if they knowingly or unknowingly become an enemy to the Father's Kingdom.  Those who enter into the Father's Kingdom, but turn against it from a position of priesthood governance (whether civic or religious), are overcome by Lucifer and become fallen angels who go to perdition.  Unfortunately, the season we are in right now has the vast majority of LDS people heading to perdition because they assent to the Son of Man being crucified afresh and put to an open shame. (D&C 76:35)

The benefit of immortality is that those who receive it avoid going into the wheel of reincarnation, which is when the individual identity of a spirit is not saved at all.  Those souls who are not saved are dissipated like dumping a bucket of water into the ocean instead of taking that bucket of water and containing it so that its uniqueness and identity can be preserved.

Think of the Book of Life as a storage medium that saves consciousness in all of its respects. 

[let’s roll]

On 10/19/2021 at 1:29 AM, mfbukowski said:

Agreed.

LDS also have that kind of usage in phrases like "spirit of contention".

I hardly think it is meant to be an entity.

You might change your mind should you ever meet....sorry, I digress.

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

You might change your mind should you ever meet....sorry, I digress.

I suppose it could mean that.

[mfbukowski]

D&C 132

"37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods."

1 hour ago, ProphetShiloh said:

Getting to the place where you are granted eternal life doesn't happen easily in just a single cycle of creation.  Immortal souls must have many cycles of existence in order to be prepared to face the challenge of being proven true and faithful in all things in order to qualify them for exaltation. 

?? 

So had these beings been through many cycles?

But how does that fit with a symbolic view?

It seems to me to be pretty straightforwardly  a literal fact about the status of those individuals, without symbolism 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Olmec Donald]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

So had these beings been through many cycles?

But how does that fit with a symbolic view?

It seems to me to be pretty straightforwardly  a literal fact about the status of those individuals, without symbolism

 

Not sure how symbolism fits in, but this passage comes to mind:

"you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, FROM EXALTATION TO EXALTATION, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead..." (King Follet sermon, emphasis Donald's)

This is not what I learned in Sunday School (multiple exaltations preceding the resurrection), but I'm inclined to side with Joseph Smith over whoever wrote the Sunday School manual. 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

Must be Saturday night.  Or full moon or at least getting there.  Was this what High Priest Group was like. I heard they did all the speculating so the rest of us didn’t have to.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

 

Not sure how symbolism fits in, but this passage comes to mind:

"you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, FROM EXALTATION TO EXALTATION, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead..." (King Follet sermon, emphasis Donald's)

This is not what I learned in Sunday School (multiple exaltations preceding the resurrection), but I'm inclined to side with Joseph Smith over whoever wrote the Sunday School manual. 

 

Agreed, and of course there comes a point where theories like these become pretty irrelevant to our lives and we end up just "doing our best"

Keep it real 

THAT is why Pragmatism appeals to me so much 

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Must be Saturday night.  Or full moon or at least getting there.  Was this what High Priest Group was like. I heard they did all the speculating so the rest of us didn’t have to.

Not in CA.

We mostly just tried to figure out if we were awake yet

I hear about stuff like that in Utah, and it seems to me those guys put caffeine in their Postum

I had to be a "specutator"

anyway in those meetings lest I be tarred and feathered.

No, seriously everything was straight out of the manual because we were all stupid converts and half of us spoke no English anyway

 

 

[webbles]

14 hours ago, ProphetShiloh said:

I am saying that those who receive immortality (salvation) will have continuity of their individual identity from world to world.  Each time they go from one world to the next, their soul is judged and they are assigned to a measure of glory in the following cycle in accordance with how well they kept their measure.

Getting to the place where you are granted eternal life doesn't happen easily in just a single cycle of creation.  Immortal souls must have many cycles of existence in order to be prepared to face the challenge of being proven true and faithful in all things in order to qualify them for exaltation.  Being in a rush to get there could leave you ill prepared and susceptible to fall and be worse off than if you had never been born.  This is why missionary work should be done only by constraint of the Holy Ghost.  Rushing people to get baptized into the Church could put them at a level of accountability that they are not prepared for.

The judgment that is rendered upon immortal souls remains fixed for each cycle of eternity.  Each cycle gives them an opportunity to advance, or the vulnerability to fail.  Someone could start out at the level of glory symbolized by "fish" (which is early Christianity, Catholicism, etc.) and then in another cycle they could be upgraded and receive a judgment that ascribes to them the measure of glory symbolized by "creeping things on dry ground" (Protestants).  In each cycle they can advance more and more toward having exposure and involvement with the time when God "makes man in his own image and likeness".

The measure of glory of "man" (the LDS Restoration of the fullness of the Father) is when people advance from the realms of spirit prison to eternal life.  Among other blessings, receiving eternal life is when they have opened up to them the possibility to have an eternal inheritance in the Father's Kingdom.  This includes the ability to have an eternal family.  So long as they remain faithful, they will be foreordained to be born into circumstances that afford them the knowledge and intelligence of the fullness of celestial law so that they can live their life as a being who is fully conscious of their eternal identity that spans from world to world.  They also get to live in a civic system that honors and respects individual sovereignty, as opposed to, for example, Christians being used as street lamps in the Roman Empire.

Immortal souls who are still in spirit prison do not have the blessings of eternal life assured to them.  The level of accountability of "man" would put them at risk of being rather seriously condemned if they knowingly or unknowingly become an enemy to the Father's Kingdom.  Those who enter into the Father's Kingdom, but turn against it from a position of priesthood governance (whether civic or religious), are overcome by Lucifer and become fallen angels who go to perdition.  Unfortunately, the season we are in right now has the vast majority of LDS people heading to perdition because they assent to the Son of Man being crucified afresh and put to an open shame. (D&C 76:35)

The benefit of immortality is that those who receive it avoid going into the wheel of reincarnation, which is when the individual identity of a spirit is not saved at all.  Those souls who are not saved are dissipated like dumping a bucket of water into the ocean instead of taking that bucket of water and containing it so that its uniqueness and identity can be preserved.

Think of the Book of Life as a storage medium that saves consciousness in all of its respects. 

So resurrection doesn't mean that we will never die again?  All those who are saved but not exalted will be reborn in a new cycle?  Then what's the point of resurrection if it doesn't last forever?

[Calm]

Quote

So long as they remain faithful, they will be foreordained to be born into circumstances that afford them the knowledge and intelligence of the fullness of celestial law so that they can live their life as a being who is fully conscious of their eternal identity that spans from world to world

So people who are born into bad experiences deserve it because of past lives?

Is there any difference between your position and multiple mortal probations?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

14 hours ago, ProphetShiloh said:

Those who enter into the Father's Kingdom, but turn against it from a position of priesthood governance (whether civic or religious), are overcome by Lucifer and become fallen angels who go to perdition.  Unfortunately, the season we are in right now has the vast majority of LDS people heading to perdition because they assent to the Son of Man being crucified afresh and put to an open shame. (D&C 76:35)

Do these souls dissipate by losing their immortality or does something else happen to them?   Where or what is perdition?

Edited November 14, 2021 by Calm

[ProphetShiloh]

13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

D&C 132

"37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods."

?? 

So had these beings been through many cycles?

But how does that fit with a symbolic view?

It seems to me to be pretty straightforwardly  a literal fact about the status of those individuals, without symbolism

Yes, D&C 132 is written very plainly here.  This is talking specifically about the law and doctrine of celestial plural marriage.

Fully deciphering the symbolic view simply shifts the paradigm whereby holy writ can be accurately understood in its fulness.

[Olmec Donald]

 

45 minutes ago, webbles said:

So resurrection doesn't mean that we will never die again?  All those who are saved but not exalted will be reborn in a new cycle?  Then what's the point of resurrection if it doesn't last forever?

Here is one possibility:

I've seen reincarnation argued to be the lesser of the two types of "resurrection" mentioned by Jesus in John 5:29, reincarnation being a "resurrection" into a Telestial world.  Here is how that verse reads with the Greek word "krisis" correctly translated, instead of mistranslated as "damnation":

"... they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of crisis." 

The Chinese character for "crisis" is a combination of the words "danger" and "opportunity", and if the resurrection of krisis is indeed reincarnation, then it might appropriately be called the "resurrection of danger and opportunity." 

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

So people who are born into bad experiences deserve it because of past lives?

My understanding is that that's the way the Hindu's see it. 

But based on reading a whole bunch of near death experiences, I don't think so.  The impression I came away with is that, assisted by more advanced souls, we choose the inner and outer circumstances and major events in our life as if we were writing a lesson plan for our souls. 

So the person who is born into bad circumstances and/or has bad experiences may have deliberately signed up for something more challenging and may be much more advanced than we give them credit for.

By way of analogy:

Back in the 60's if I recall correctly, the biology department at a university in Pennsylvania wanted to study muscle atrophy in frogs.  So they took a bunch of frogs and measured how far each of them could jump.  Then they randomly divided the frogs into two groups.  They placed bands on the legs of the frogs in one group so that they couldn't use their legs, and they left the other group free to hop around like normal.  After several weeks they snipped the bands and once again measured how far each frog could jump.

To their amazement, the frogs whose legs had been immobilized jumped much farther than the control group!  What had been going on was, these frogs had been strugging against their limitations.  And it didn't matter that their struggles had been entirely unsuccessful as far as the frogs could tell - they had actually been building up their muscles way beyond their normal strength.

Likewise the person who spends their whole life struggling unsuccessfully against this or that condition or addiction or whatever may have signed up to be a frog with leg bands in order to develop strength in that area way beyond normal, even if from the outside they appeared to be a complete failure.

Imo we just don't know enough to judge reliably.  Remember the parable of the King who went among his people disguised as the least among them (the last sixteen verses of Matthew chapter 25).

Edited November 14, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[webbles]

8 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Here is one possibility:

I've seen reincarnation argued to be the lesser of the two types of "resurrection" mentioned by Jesus in John 5:29, reincarnation being a "resurrection" into a Telestial world.  Here is how that verse reads with the Greek word "krisis" correctly translated, instead of mistranslated as "damnation":

"... they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of crisis." 

The Chinese character for "crisis" is a combination of the words "danger" and "opportunity", and if the resurrection of krisis is indeed reincarnation, then it might appropriately be called the "resurrection of danger and opportunity." 

But that requires re-interpreting the meaning of resurrection to something that doesn't fit the LDS theology.  I think Shiloh still follows most of the LDS theology (at least what Joseph Smith taught).  Alma 11:45 says:

Quote

Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

A resurrected body is never to be divided.  I don't see how a new mortal probation after resurrection fits with that scripture.  And in Alma 11:44, it says that this happens to everyone, both wicked and righteous.

[ProphetShiloh]

28 minutes ago, webbles said:

So resurrection doesn't mean that we will never die again?  All those who are saved but not exalted will be reborn in a new cycle?  Then what's the point of resurrection if it doesn't last forever?

That depends upon your point of view.  Are you your physical tabernacle only?

Do "you" die when your physical body dies?

One of the main points of the Gospel is that the answer to this question is:
Not necessarily.  Not if you are an heir of immortality or eternal life.

So as far as things go here in the physical plane where human beings have been on Planet Earth for at least hundreds of thousands of years, human beings are the raw intelligences that are the building blocks of Elohim's cosmos.  The flecks of dust from which Adam's body is composed is human intelligences who receive spiritual enlightenment to the celestial degree of glory.  Adam is a distinct being, but he is a body of flesh and bone.  This means that he is a plurality of enlightened intelligences who function together as a collective identity.  This is the whole point of the AT-ONE-MENT.

Fully penetrating the Adamic language has one learn that there is a synergistic relationship between God and humanity.  The two cannot exist without the other.  They are one.  Put another way, God is the collective intelligence/consciousness of the heirs of salvation of humanity.

Among humanity are intelligences of varying degrees who have been enlarged by being quickened spiritually.  Once a human being receives the intelligence of God, they become a part of the body of God.  They become an extension of the consciousness of God.

Human beings who do not open themselves up to spiritual enlargement from the Spirit cut themselves off from God.  They carry on as a human being, but when all is said and done they are not saved, so to speak.  These human intelligences are recycled via what is called reincarnation as opposed to being resurrected.

Reincarnation does not preserve individual identity.

Resurrection does preserve individual identity.

[Olmec Donald]

26 minutes ago, webbles said:

But that requires re-interpreting the meaning of resurrection to something that doesn't fit the LDS theology.  I think Shiloh still follows most of the LDS theology (at least what Joseph Smith taught).  Alma 11:45 says:

Current LDS theology may or may not be the highest level of truth on the subject.

For the record I'm no longer LDS, nor am I associated with Shiloh or anyone else, but it seems to me that Alma was talking about the resurrection of life eternal, the higher resurrection, the one like Jesus's resurrection.  

26 minutes ago, webbles said:

A resurrected body is never to be divided.  I don't see how a new mortal probation after resurrection fits with that scripture.  And in Alma 11:44, it says that this happens to everyone, both wicked and righteous.

The theory is that there are TWO different kinds of resurrections. 

If you are interested, here is a paper that goes into it much more thoroughly than I can:

https://www.scribd.com/document/135909617/JJ-Dewey-Reincarnation-and-Mormonism

Personally, I don't think a belief one way or the other on the subject is critical.  There may be some utility to a belief in reincarnation, but there may also be some detriment, so I can see arguments for both sides.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

So people who are born into bad experiences deserve it because of past lives?

Is there any difference between your position and multiple mortal probations?

Really re-incarnation-  just after each big bang, as i see it.

Isn't it great the way language messes up everything?

How can one believe in sentences which are Absolutely True when we cannot even speak clearly?  We have 26 symbols to put togeher all the nuanced beliefs of mankind, and that is supposed to work?

Just seems to be absurd on its face that that could ever work.

[RevTestament]

17 minutes ago, ProphetShiloh said:

That depends upon your point of view.  Are you your physical tabernacle only?

Do "you" die when your physical body dies?

One of the main points of the Gospel is that the answer to this question is:
Not necessarily.  Not if you are an heir of immortality or eternal life.

So as far as things go here in the physical plane where human beings have been on Planet Earth for at least hundreds of thousands of years, human beings are the raw intelligences that are the building blocks of Elohim's cosmos.  The flecks of dust from which Adam's body is composed is human intelligences who receive spiritual enlightenment to the celestial degree of glory.  Adam is a distinct being, but he is a body of flesh and bone.  This means that he is a plurality of enlightened intelligences who function together as a collective identity.  This is the whole point of the AT-ONE-MENT.

Fully penetrating the Adamic language has one learn that there is a synergistic relationship between God and humanity.  The two cannot exist without the other.  They are one.  Put another way, God is the collective intelligence/consciousness of the heirs of salvation of humanity.

Among humanity are intelligences of varying degrees who have been enlarged by being quickened spiritually.  Once a human being receives the intelligence of God, they become a part of the body of God.  They become an extension of the consciousness of God.

Human beings who do not open themselves up to spiritual enlargement from the Spirit cut themselves off from God.  They carry on as a human being, but when all is said and done they are not saved, so to speak.  These human intelligences are recycled via what is called reincarnation as opposed to being resurrected.

False Prophet. All are resurrected including the wicked - those you say "cut themselves off from God." See Matt 25 and Rev 20. Falsehood #1. D&C says those who did not accept Christ will end up "saved" in the telestial kingdom - you say they are not saved but recycled. Falsehood #2. Give up already.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

I've seen reincarnation argued to be the lesser of the two types of "resurrection" mentioned by Jesus in John 5:29, reincarnation being a "resurrection" into a Telestial world.  Here is how that verse reads with the Greek word "krisis" correctly translated, instead of mistranslated as "damnation":

Wow I had never noticed that before- and solves a problem for me.  For 40 years it has bothered me that LDS doctrine seems to use the word "damned" as a synonym for "dammed", differentiating two different types of damnation.   "Those stupid Utah farmers can't even use a dictionary" was my unfortunate conclusion when I first joined the church.

But finally this clarifies it all that there really ARE two different words.

I guess them stupid Utah farmers are even a little brighter than super brain ME.  That makes me happy.  They were right all along.

I often see myself, unfortunately as the lecturer, and here I got to be the student and actually learn something.   I think just maybe I need to work on humility just a tad...🤕

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by mfbukowski

[webbles]

35 minutes ago, ProphetShiloh said:

That depends upon your point of view.  Are you your physical tabernacle only?

Do "you" die when your physical body dies?

One of the main points of the Gospel is that the answer to this question is:
Not necessarily.  Not if you are an heir of immortality or eternal life.

My answer to the first question is "no".  My answer to the second question is "no" as well.  I'm pretty sure that is normal LDS theology.  I don't see how that answers my question.

50 minutes ago, ProphetShiloh said:

So as far as things go here in the physical plane where human beings have been on Planet Earth for at least hundreds of thousands of years, human beings are the raw intelligences that are the building blocks of Elohim's cosmos.  The flecks of dust from which Adam's body is composed is human intelligences who receive spiritual enlightenment to the celestial degree of glory.  Adam is a distinct being, but he is a body of flesh and bone.  This means that he is a plurality of enlightened intelligences who function together as a collective identity.  This is the whole point of the AT-ONE-MENT.

Atonement is an English word.  Other languages use different words that can't be split into smaller parts.  For example, Portuguese uses "expiação".  If you tried to translate that paragraph into Portuguese, the last statement would make no sense.

52 minutes ago, ProphetShiloh said:

Fully penetrating the Adamic language has one learn that there is a synergistic relationship between God and humanity.  The two cannot exist without the other.  They are one.  Put another way, God is the collective intelligence/consciousness of the heirs of salvation of humanity.

Among humanity are intelligences of varying degrees who have been enlarged by being quickened spiritually.  Once a human being receives the intelligence of God, they become a part of the body of God.  They become an extension of the consciousness of God.

Human beings who do not open themselves up to spiritual enlargement from the Spirit cut themselves off from God.  They carry on as a human being, but when all is said and done they are not saved, so to speak.  These human intelligences are recycled via what is called reincarnation as opposed to being resurrected.

Reincarnation does not preserve individual identity.

Resurrection does preserve individual identity.

Sorry, but that still doesn't make any sense to me.  Is everyone resurrected or only some people?  Is everyone reincarnated or only some people?  Can someone be both resurrected and reincarnated?  Can someone be neither?  What causes someone to be reincarnated?  What causes someone to be resurrected?  In one of your previous posts, I thought you said everyone was resurrected.  But now you seem to be saying not everyone is resurrected.

[webbles]

59 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

Current LDS theology may or may not be the highest level of truth on the subject.

For the record I'm no longer LDS, nor am I associated with Shiloh or anyone else, but it seems to me that Alma was talking about the resurrection of life eternal, the higher resurrection, the one like Jesus's resurrection.  

The theory is that there are TWO different kinds of resurrections. 

If you are interested, here is a paper that goes into it much more thoroughly than I can:

https://www.scribd.com/document/135909617/JJ-Dewey-Reincarnation-and-Mormonism

Personally, I don't think a belief one way or the other on the subject is critical.  There may be some utility to a belief in reincarnation, but there may also be some detriment, so I can see arguments for both sides.

Yeah, I know you aren't LDS.  That's why I clarified that I was talking about LDS theology.  If you get outside of LDS theology, then sure, reincarnation is possible.

Thanks for the document.  I read it but it wasn't really convincing.  Interesting ideas but it stretches statements a little too much for my liking.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

Current LDS theology may or may not be the highest level of truth on the subject.

And THIS is absolute truth which we cannot possibly doubt.

Why?

Because any statement saying "Statement X may or may not be true" is a tautology and therefore absolutely true, but trivially so.    I finally gotcha in the most trivial detail ever  in a huge mistake!  🤕

[Olmec Donald]

46 minutes ago, webbles said:

Yeah, I know you aren't LDS.  That's why I clarified that I was talking about LDS theology.  If you get outside of LDS theology, then sure, reincarnation is possible.

Thanks for the document.  I read it but it wasn't really convincing.  Interesting ideas but it stretches statements a little too much for my liking.

Imo the utility of reincarnation as a concept is debatable, and at best falls into the "not necessary for us to know for our salvation" category.  Imo what we make of this life is what we are here for. 

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

And THIS is absolute truth which we cannot possibly doubt.

Why?

Because any statement saying "Statement X may or may not be true" is a tautology and therefore absolutely true, but trivially so.    I finally gotcha in the most trivial detail ever  in a huge mistake!  🤕

I had to look up "tautology".  Your accurate assessment is correct.

Hey the farthest I got was flunking a class in syllogistic logic in college.  It was like doing algebra with words ("if A then B; not B, therefore not A").  So I'm just winging it here.

What should I have said to convey that idea?  "Current LDS theology may not be the highest level of truth on the subject"? 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[ProphetShiloh]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Do these souls dissipate by losing their immortality or does something else happen to them?   Where or what is perdition?

At least two things happen when a human intelligence goes from having been a spirit son or daughter of Heavenly Father to become a member of the flesh-and-bone body of the Son of Perdition.  I say it this way because both male and female human individuals can become members of the flesh-and-bone bodies of Adam, Eve, Abel, Cain, Seth, etc.  Therefore, there are sons and daughters of perdition.

First of all, an immortalized soul that is the indwelling entity that is bestowing spiritual life to a human intelligence simply withdraws from a tabernacle that makes choices, or fails to make choices, that makes them no longer able to be inhabited.  Only a wayward human intelligence can forfeit the indwelling of an immortal spirit.  Therefore, the immortal spirit preserves its identity and withdraws.

Secondly, the human intelligence that goes to perdition has been overcome by evil spirits that are in rebellion against God.  For whatever reason, they have lost the Holy Spirit and are now in league with these evil indwelling spirits.  Thus they will have to seek their blessings from the spiritual system that these evil spirits hail from.

As to where or what perdition is....

It is eternal banishment (spiritual and physical) from Adam's "world". This means that they are forbidden to receive a physical tabernacle to resurrect into that is purely Adamic.  As LDS folk-lore partially gets right, they are "denied bodies".  However, they aren't denied any body whatsoever.  They are just denied a body that is under the patriarchal authority of Adam.  If your "name" is not written in the Book of Life, then you do not have a place prepared for you in Adam's new world.  You have to seek unto some other source or perhaps endeavor to hijack an Adamic tabernacle by enticing it to sin and drive out its rightful indwelling spirit, thus perpetuating the cycle of evil.  It is a fight for spiritual survival.

Note: The Sealed Portion reveals by implication that not all humanoid beings on Planet Earth are of pure Adamic descent.  Adamic humanity is a subset of the population of Planet Earth.  When there is a new heavens and a new earth, there is also a new Adam and Eve.  All human beings who reject the enlightenment that accompanies being a member of the flesh-and-bone bodies of Adam and Eve are deemed non-Adamic for the new world.  This could explain what constitutes the class of humanity that the scriptures refer to as heathens.  These would be offspring of an Adam of a previous cycle, but they are outside of the most recent Adam's posterity (both spiritual and physical).

[ProphetShiloh]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

False Prophet. All are resurrected including the wicked - those you say "cut themselves off from God." See Matt 25 and Rev 20. Falsehood #1. D&C says those who did not accept Christ will end up "saved" in the telestial kingdom - you say they are not saved but recycled. Falsehood #2. Give up already.

Your words reflect your process.  You began with the premise that I am a false prophet.  Then you set out to spin things in such a way that you could convince yourself of that.  You also seem to hope to convince others of your presumptuous premise.

I could address your accusations, but your mind is already made up.