Talmage’s view on progression between kingdoms

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Good point.  The Prodigal Son's father not only welcomed his return but ran out to meet him. 

The parable of the lost sheep seems to imply that the Good Shepherd does not give up on us.  Maybe He sees more in the least among us than we do. 

Well if we are presently the inhabitants of a Telestial world, and more advanced souls would have us aspire to a Celestial one, then maybe advancement between kingdoms is already happening right here and right now.

Interesting answers! My 2 cents:

... will the Father ever stop trying to reach us, bless us, teach us...

No, but we have self-imposed limitations. If He did stop, we would not be able to maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgement.

... and will we ever reach a point where we are so darkened or so set in our ways that we lose the ability to grow and change?

The ability to grow and change may not be something we are willing to maintain, but we can still retain and maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgement.

... does anyone have a thought as to the purpose of ministry from those greater glories to those in lesser glories?

To help us maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgement.

 

 

 

 

[Olmec Donald]

12 hours ago, CV75 said:

... we have self-imposed limitations. If He did stop, we would not be able to maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgement.

... The ability to grow and change may not be something we are willing to maintain, but we can still retain and maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgement.

... To help us maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgement.

Can you explain what you mean by the phrase, "maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgment"?

[Olmec Donald]

On 8/19/2021 at 5:25 PM, JLHPROF said:

A Terrestrial being that continued to learn and progress would unavoidably become a Celestial being eventually OR the Terrestrial environment would be forced to admit new truth beyond the Terrestrial level.

 

This makes sense to me.

An individual's trajectory may change dramatically over the course of a lifetime on earth, whether that lifetime be long or short.  At the risk of oversimplifying, it seems to me that general upwards trends (whether established in this life or the next) will reach the same "elevation", just not necessarily at the same time. 

 

On 8/20/2021 at 5:10 PM, JLHPROF said:

Additionally the D&C tells us that when we enter the Celestial Kingdom that we will learn of a higher order of kingdoms.  Joseph taught that when Christ inherits his Father's kingdom the Father will take a higher exaltation.

So there are kingdoms and exaltations above the Celestial.

 

Yes, and imo the implicit opportunity to advance into this higher order of kingdoms is an example of progression between kingdoms in the afterlife.

 

On 9/5/2021 at 3:30 PM, JLHPROF said:

[T]he whole idea of the higher kingdoms administering to the lower kingdoms would indicate to me that as long as they can learn and develop then they may not always "be evil".

 

Agreed.  Depending on what snapshot of a person's existence we look at, a lot of very good people have temporarily been or done "evil".

 

13 hours ago, CV75 said:

No, but we have self-imposed limitations.

 

Imo this is an extremely hopeful observation, because it implies that we can STOP self-imposing limitations, if we so choose.

Imo the fact that we are created in the image of God makes this decision a likely eventuality, and the fact that we have free agency makes the timeframe highly variable.

 

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Can you explain what you mean by the phrase, "maintain what we are willing to receive in the final judgment"?

I mean, to continue to enjoy our final, resurrected estate as determined by the Lord without regressing. When I say "estate" I mean the spiritual and physical conditions in personal/individual, social (as in the D&C's "sociality") and environmental ways.

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Imo this is an extremely hopeful observation, because it implies that we can STOP self-imposing limitations, if we so choose.

Imo the fact that we are created in the image of God makes this decision a likely eventuality, and the fact that we have free agency makes the timeframe highly variable.

I think that the most precious gifts of God are agency and love, expressed fully in His Son Jesus Christ. We gain agency and charity by submitting our wills to His.

We exercised agency and love in the war in heaven, and that war continues here. But it will come to an end eventually, so we will continue without that opposition as resurrected beings. Without the opposition, we cannot use our agency against it and progress. We can do more of whatever it is we enjoy, but we cannot progress to do more (i.e., exercise greater agency than we have). 

God always loves us, and always remains on the eternal round. But just as we cannot return to a pre-mortal estate, resurrected beings cannot return to a state of probation. For me, God is no longer in a state of probation, but helps His children who are. When we are no longer in a state of probation, He still loves and helps us do more of whatever it is we enjoy.

I think God does not face opposition: the war in heaven is a product of His children's' agency, not His, and a gain or a loss to their existence, not His. The product of His agency and love is to give His children agency and love, whatever estate they are in, to the capacity they can receive them. But every estate, with its opportunities to advance in agency and love, comes to an end, except the final estate when there is no more opposition.

Edited October 17, 2021 by CV75

[Olmec Donald]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I mean, to continue to enjoy our final, resurrected estate as determined by the Lord without regressing. When I say "estate" I mean the spiritual and physical conditions in personal/individual, social (as in the D&C's "sociality") and environmental ways.

Thanks for clarifying.  So if I understand correctly, the focus is on not regressing, so as to not lose what we receive in the final judgment.  I hadn't thought about that before.  Do you think the principle taught in the Parable of the Talents would apply after the final judgment? 

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Without the opposition, we cannot use our agency against it and progress. We can do more of whatever it is we enjoy, but we cannot progress to do more... I think God does not face opposition

If I understand correctly, you're saying that opposition is necessary in order to progress... and if God is not facing opposition, the implication is that He cannot progress. I don't want to put words in your mouth so please correct me if I'm wrong.

My initial reaction is this:  Different kingdoms may have different laws, and what is law on a Telestial world ("there must be opposition in all things in order to progress") may not necessarily be "the law" in higher kingdoms.  Having graduated from "overcoming opposition school", perhaps we can take more advanced courses for which it was a prerequisite, and wherein we may actually progress more quickly. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

Having graduated from "overcoming opposition school", perhaps we can take more advanced courses for which it was a prerequisite, and wherein we may actually progress more quickly. 

Welcome, and love your avatar. E-i-e-i-o !

I think regression is not a problem because each step once accomplished changes your being, you become  "new person". I know that I can never go back to who I once was.

Struggles in advancement? 

Of course! But from where you are today, to where you had been at the bottom of the ladder?  I don't think so.

But God had to dig an extra deep hole to even extend the ladder to me, as deep as I was in darkness!

Regression that far? I don't see how it could be.

I simply am now, through His grace, a different person than I was then.

 

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Thanks for clarifying.  So if I understand correctly, the focus is on not regressing, so as to not lose what we receive in the final judgment.  I hadn't thought about that before.  Do you think the principle taught in the Parable of the Talents would apply after the final judgment? 

If I understand correctly, you're saying that opposition is necessary in order to progress... and if God is not facing opposition, the implication is that He cannot progress. I don't want to put words in your mouth so please correct me if I'm wrong.

My initial reaction is this:  Different kingdoms may have different laws, and what is law on a Telestial world ("there must be opposition in all things in order to progress") may not necessarily be "the law" in higher kingdoms.  Having graduated from "overcoming opposition school", perhaps we can take more advanced courses for which it was a prerequisite, and wherein we may actually progress more quickly. 

Yes, I suppose the Parable of the Talents can be viewed in the setting of the post-mortal spirit world as well as this one.  To paraphrase, “For unto every one that [is willing to obtain more, by his faith,] shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that [is not willing to obtain more, by his lack of faith,] shall be taken away even that which he [was first given over that which he was willing to receive].

Yes, I am saying that God cannot progress in quality of godhood, but always in the quantity of the fruits thereof. And that the same goes for anyone in any lesser kingdom of glory.

We know where opposition to live wickedly comes from in this world, and they will no longer inhabit the worlds of the resurrection. So, an immortal telestial estate would need to derive the enticement to oppose the ministration of the Holy Spirit from someone other than devils. This cannot come from any of the other telestials since everyone there has already bowed the knee to Christ.

This is why I think that opposition is only a force to be reckoned with for those who are progressing in the pre-mortal, earthly and pre-resurrection estates. It has been removed for those who are no longer progressing, being established forever in the resurrection. There is no going backward, either, for the same reason. The maintenance provided by higher intelligences keeps them in place, doing for them that which they cannot do for themselves, and receiving and leveraging the fruits of that which they can do for themselves for higher purposes. An interesting but mutually beneficial economy going on there!

One who hopes to find hope in Christ does not yet have hope in Christ, but according to Alma 32, they can begin the process. Replacing hoped-for exaltation with hoped-for progress between kingdoms seems to be the result of somehow disrupting this process by not nurturing the seed that Christ actually presented.

Edited October 17, 2021 by CV75

[Olmec Donald]

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think that opposition is only a force to be reckoned with for those who are progressing in the pre-mortal, earthly and pre-resurrection estates.

I'm pretty sure I agree with this part. 

20 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This is why I think that opposition is only a force to be reckoned with for those who are progressing in the pre-mortal, earthly and pre-resurrection estates. It has been removed for those who are no longer progressing, being established forever in the resurrection.

Hmmm.   Are you saying that after the resurrection we are no longer progressing, because there is no opposition to work against?

Perhaps you and I are using the term "progressing" to mean different things.

Let me try to formulate an example.  It seems to me that one of the things we struggle with down here is sticking with decisions/commitments, or keeping covenants, or being true to ourselves (all imo variations on the same theme).  For instance, I might decide/commit/covenant that I will no longer become irritated by the choices of other drivers (and verbally or mentally assert which kingdom I think they should go to).  How nice it would be to only have to make that decision ONE time, instead of having to re-fight the same inner battle virtually every time I get behind the wheel!  My nature has NOT YET advanced to the point where it simply does what I tell it to do, without further tiresome input on my part, so this is an area where I currently encounter plenty of opposition.

But like an infant learning to walk, then later being able to easily walk or even run with zero conscious effort, perhaps there comes a point at which our nature will carry out our decisions without further tiresome input on our part.  Once we have developed sufficient spiritual/mental "muscle memory" that we only have to make a decision ONE time, we are no longer constantly fighting that form of "opposition", with one effect being that opportunities for "progressing" - learning, interacting, creating - have arguably been expanded. 

So my assumption is that, once our entire self naturally obeys our highest self's decisions as effortlessly as the body obeys a decision to walk, progression may actually be facilitated.  However I may be using the term "progression" differently from you.

I am NOT sure about any of this; still trying to sort it out, and my opinion tomorrow may have, ah, "progressed" into something completely different.  CV75 I very much appreciate your having this conversation with me, and making me try to think this through.

[Olmec Donald]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Welcome, and love your avatar. E-i-e-i-o !

Thank you.   I perceive that you are familiar with my theme song.

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think regression is not a problem because each step once accomplished changes your being, you become  "new person".

That makes sense to me...

But then there is Lucifer who presumably had progressed pretty far before his rebellion.  Or maybe not, I don't remember.

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

I'm pretty sure I agree with this part. 

Hmmm.   Are you saying that after the resurrection we are no longer progressing, because there is no opposition to work against?

Perhaps you and I are using the term "progressing" to mean different things.

Let me try to formulate an example.  It seems to me that one of the things we struggle with down here is sticking with decisions/commitments, or keeping covenants, or being true to ourselves (all imo variations on the same theme).  For instance, I might decide/commit/covenant that I will no longer become irritated by the choices of other drivers (and verbally or mentally assert which kingdom I think they should go to).  How nice it would be to only have to make that decision ONE time, instead of having to re-fight the same inner battle virtually every time I get behind the wheel!  My nature has NOT YET advanced to the point where it simply does what I tell it to do, without further tiresome input on my part, so this is an area where I currently encounter plenty of opposition.

But like an infant learning to walk, then later being able to easily walk or even run with zero conscious effort, perhaps there comes a point at which our nature will carry out our decisions without further tiresome input on our part.  Once we have developed sufficient spiritual/mental "muscle memory" that we only have to make a decision ONE time, we are no longer constantly fighting that form of "opposition", with one effect being that opportunities for "progressing" - learning, interacting, creating - have arguably been expanded. 

So my assumption is that, once our entire self naturally obeys our highest self's decisions as effortlessly as the body obeys a decision to walk, progression may actually be facilitated.  However I may be using the term "progression" differently from you.

I am NOT sure about any of this; still trying to sort it out, and my opinion tomorrow may have, ah, "progressed" into something completely different.  CV75 I very much appreciate your having this conversation with me, and making me try to think this through.

Yes, I am saying we are not progressing in glory (quality), though we do progress – how could we not – as a function of passing time and in the continuation of the fruits of our labors we are qualified to perform (quantity). In exaltation this is in the continuation of the lives or seeds, and in the lesser kingdoms, this is in the supporting and ancillary activities.

Yes, semantics often play a major role in these discussions! I think they help us understand what other people are trying to say.

My thoughts and opinions change over time as well. Progression between kingdoms is a very appealing concept, but a hope in the infinite and eternal atonement of Christ eliminates the need for a middle-man, so to speak. Someone would have to atone for the unexalted conditions of the immortal worlds that Christ set up in the final judgement by virtue of His atonement – in other words, someone would have to atone for what He did!

Using your example, we expand opportunities to become like God by overcoming opposition, even if that opposition is our own lack of development. Once we are exalted, I understand we need to learn quite a bit before actually being God, which means we are exalted with a good deal of activity to look forward to. People in every other kingdom can say the same thing about life in their kingdom. Otherwise, someone would have to keep atoning for Heavenly Father so He can keep progressing from estate to estate, as well as for Jesus for setting up lesser kingdoms of glory.

I also guess it depends on what “final” means as in “final judgement” or “last” as in “last day.”

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

Thank you.   I perceive that you are familiar with my theme song.

That makes sense to me...

But then there is Lucifer who presumably had progressed pretty far before his rebellion.  Or maybe not, I don't remember.

Yes, Lucifer had progressed about as far as Jesus did. I think we can progress and regress within estates, and if we progress, we can move on to the next estate. Not to beat a dead horse, I do not see subsequent estates after the resurrection. Maybe there are. But within the eternal round, the work of God continues, and outside of the eternal round, lesser works continue, so any estates growing out of either would still be part of their respective paths. And since no one can atone for their own lack of development, atoning saviors would be required between advancing estates.

Edited October 18, 2021 by CV75

[Olmec Donald]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I also guess it depends on what “final” means as in “final judgement” or “last” as in “last day.”

Yes, thanks for the wake-up call!

I use such wording as if I know what it means, but I really don't.  Like I used to think I had a pretty good handle on what "eternal punishment" means, then I stumbled across the that part of D&C Section 19.

(I'm not confident of correctly posting a link on the first try, and don't know how to edit if I get it wrong, so let's see how this goes...)

Click [url=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19?lang=eng]here[/url] and then start at verse 6.

 

[Olmec Donald]

So much for my link-posting skills.

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Thank you.   I perceive that you are familiar with my theme song.

That makes sense to me...

But then there is Lucifer who presumably had progressed pretty far before his rebellion.  Or maybe not, I don't remember.

The historical documentation is slim and ambiguous.  

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Yes, thanks for the wake-up call!

I use such wording as if I know what it means, but I really don't.  Like I used to think I had a pretty good handle on what "eternal punishment" means, then I stumbled across the that part of D&C Section 19.

(I'm not confident of correctly posting a link on the first try, and don't know how to edit if I get it wrong, so let's see how this goes...)

Click [url=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19?lang=eng]here[/url] and then start at verse 6.

 

And then there is the confusion between "dammed" and "damned" found I think, only in LDS theology, where "damned" can mean "dammed", meaning to cease in progression, like when a river is dammed, it can be undammed.

The actual definition of "damned" in a Christian context, means burning in hell forever.

Just look up the definitions.

So we have a transformation in meaning between burning in hell forever to a temporary cessation of progression.

Big difference.

I am ok with the concept that God does allow us to cease in progression for purposes of repentance, and that no one will burn forever, not even the sons of perdition.

But there are a lot of explanations missing between our interpretations and what the scriptures say. 

And I have found no talks explaining the discrepancy. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Olmec Donald]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I am ok with the concept that God does allow us to cease in progression for purposes of repentance, and that no one will burn forever, not even the sons of perdition.

So am I.

In speaking of baptism for the dead, it seems to me that Section 128 is saying we are not "made perfect" in mere ones and twos... rather, that we are made perfect as a "whole and complete and perfect union" that stretches back to Adam, presumably linked together by a pattern of sealings:

"For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time."

I am okay with this "whole and complete and perfect union" including those who learned their lessons the hard way.  Actually I'm rather hoping that's the case, because then it might include me and a lot of people I care about.

From Brigham Young's record of a visionary dream of a conversation with Joseph Smith:

"[Joseph said] Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion.

"Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the Priesthood had been taken from the earth and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity."

Again, the idea of the human family's correct condition being a great pattern, rather scattered ones and twos.

And if the "great pattern" concept is valid, it might be a reason for those in higher kingdoms to minister to those in the lower, in hopes of their progression:  That we really are incomplete without each other.  Maybe the worth of souls really is great.

22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

But there are a lot of explanations missing between our interpretations and what the scriptures say. 

And I have found no talks explaining the discrepancy. 

I will readily admit there are probably holes in my speculative thought process you could drive a wagon train through.

[Olmec Donald]

Edited to insert omitted word:  "Again, the idea of the human family's correct condition being a great pattern, rather than scattered ones and twos."

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Edited to insert omitted word:  "Again, the idea of the human family's correct condition being a great pattern, rather than scattered ones and twos."

12 more posts and you can edit. 

[CV75]

10 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Yes, thanks for the wake-up call!

I use such wording as if I know what it means, but I really don't.  Like I used to think I had a pretty good handle on what "eternal punishment" means, then I stumbled across the that part of D&C Section 19.

(I'm not confident of correctly posting a link on the first try, and don't know how to edit if I get it wrong, so let's see how this goes...)

Click [url=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/19?lang=eng]here[/url] and then start at verse 6.

 

Given that “final” and “last” may well be interpreted as “God’s judgement” and “God’s day”, and the reason for these terms is to “work upon the hearts of the children of men,” then “It is finished” could really mean “To be continued.” But “eternal” and “endless” include “the first and the last” and “the beginning and the end” concurrently. Eschatologically speaking, the first punishment and judgement are the fall, and the final judgement and punishment are the resurrection; the first day of mankind is the last day of creation, and the first day of the fall is the last day of paradise; the last day of creation is the first day of mankind, and the last day of the fall is the first day of the Millennium, or perhaps more accurately, the rebirth resurrection of the earth some 1,000 years -plus-a-“little season” later. I know this is beginning to sound silly, but the idea is that “eternal” is not used to describe any of these temporal junctures between estates. In short (and I could have skipped all the preceding), eternal punishment does have an end, and so eternal progression would also.

If Christ’s sacrifice was to be continued, His resurrection would have been delayed, and there is no progress in that, eternal or otherwise!

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

So am I.

In speaking of baptism for the dead, it seems to me that Section 128 is saying we are not "made perfect" in mere ones and twos... rather, that we are made perfect as a "whole and complete and perfect union" that stretches back to Adam, presumably linked together by a pattern of sealings:

"For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time."

I am okay with this "whole and complete and perfect union" including those who learned their lessons the hard way.  Actually I'm rather hoping that's the case, because then it might include me and a lot of people I care about.

From Brigham Young's record of a visionary dream of a conversation with Joseph Smith:

"[Joseph said] Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion.

"Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the Priesthood had been taken from the earth and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity."

Again, the idea of the human family's correct condition being a great pattern, rather scattered ones and twos.

And if the "great pattern" concept is valid, it might be a reason for those in higher kingdoms to minister to those in the lower, in hopes of their progression:  That we really are incomplete without each other.  Maybe the worth of souls really is great.

I will readily admit there are probably holes in my speculative thought process you could drive a wagon train through.

I think the ministering between kingdoms is evidence of the "great pattern." Everyone being sealed back to Adam creates a perfect union where everyone has something to do, whether they are exalted or not. We need to be sealed to be exalted, but we do not need to be exalted to be sealed. We will be sealed because every knee shall bow to Jesus and live somewhere as members of God’s eternal family; different inheritances or degrees of glory can be sealed upon us. Sealing conveys permanence, as in the resurrection is sealed upon us.

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

I will readily admit there are probably holes in my speculative thought process you could drive a wagon train through.

As there are in mine.

But we are not The Church basing Doctrine on a grammatical error.

Sounds this is one for the Great @Scott Lloyd!

[Olmec Donald]

CV75, thank you for taking the time.

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

In short... eternal punishment does have an end, and so eternal progression would also.

If Christ’s sacrifice was to be continued, His resurrection would have been delayed, and there is no progress in that, eternal or otherwise!

Unfortunately I'm not making the connection that IF "eternal punishment does have an end", THEN "eternal progression would also."  Why would this be the case?

And from the second sentence quoted, it sounds like there could be no progression without an atonement, presumably as a safety net for if (or much more realistically when) we stumble.  Is that what you mean?

If my questions become tiresome please don't feel any obligation to respond. 

5 hours ago, Calm said:

12 more posts and you can edit. 

I wasn't actually TRYING to pad my post-count with that "edit", but hey...

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

As there are in mine.

But we are not The Church basing Doctrine on a grammatical error.

Sounds this is one for the Great @Scott Lloyd!

I’m always bemused whenever I get an alert that my name has been mentioned in a thread that hasn’t even interested me enough to look in on. 

[bOObOO]

9 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

Edited to insert omitted word:  "Again, the idea of the human family's correct condition being a great pattern, rather than scattered ones and twos."

You do realize we are scattered ones and twos... and larger groups of scattered ones too... as of now, don't you?  Actually the number of gathered ones is the sum total of all who are members of our Lord's church, and everyone who is not gathered in it still needs to be gathered unto it/us.  If all of us are to be able to have the fulness of the glory and all that is good and possible for all of us to have.  Otherwise only some of us will have all of the good stuff and oithers of us won't have as much of the good stuff.

I also think part of the way we benefit from our ancestors is by the fact that they helped to bring us into existence.  Without our ancestors we would not have been born, and without them we won't have our ancestors around to enjoy our lives with us.